SI.com: Danny's summer was a flop, second worst among "notable" teams

[kozlodoev]

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

Handing out max contracts inflates people's expectations. However, even within the set of "NBA FAs that will be offered a max contract" there is a varying level of bang you can get for your buck.

[smokeablount]

S/o to Koz for criticizing Hayward for never playing more than 80 games in a regular season...

Dude has missed: 10, 0, 10, 5, 6, 2, and 9 games in his career.

This blog man...

More than 80 games is a ridiculously stupid bar. Lebron James hasn't played more than 80 games since he was 24 and that was the only time in his career that he did it.

He's quoted the same number about Hayward before, gotten the same response, and has chosen to post it again.

I don't like Griffin's value proposition: near-max deal for an injury prone player approaching his 30's who is dependent on his athleticism/leaping ability. I'm not psyched about George for this team either (I think we should build for the future), but Griffin has DNP written all over him. I don't want to cash in on our flexibility for Griffin.

But you're ok with 75-games-a-season Hayward then? Odd.

Has it escaped your notice that almost every nba start misses 5 or 10 games a year, even those who stay generally healthy?

It's nonsense and trolling, and none of us need to pay attention to it. Koz is LarBrd33 without the wit and substance.

Yup. But I'd be surprised if you get a response, it seems to me that Koz ignores the rebuttals that shut him down and just waits patiently until a less than stellar response comes.

Then he pounces!

I've said everything I could possibly say about this. I am concerned about paying 30+ million to someone who has made a habit of missing 5 to 10 games a season due to injuries. What more do you want?

But he's 7th in minutes played, so he misses less time than 95% of NBA players.  If that's not good enough, what do you propose?  Not paying 30mil to anyone who plays less than 82 games every year?  Then we wont have any max players, and the team will suck.  That seems more palatable to you than signing an all star who is top 10 and minutes played and thus reliable?

Your position is like complaining about becoming CEO of Microsoft because you weren't named CEO of Amazon.  You better be lights out brilliant for that not to seem ridiculous, and if you're complaining about missed time from the All Star that played the most or second most of any All Star in the past 3-4 years, then your analysis is not brilliant.  Hence the push back.

[Granath]

The stuff you find to complain about boggles the mind. He's played more games than Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, George or Butler the last 4 seasons.   

I don't have a problem with that. I will also be very happy to be way off on this.

You are way off. Hayward has started 93.29% of the maximum number of games the last 4 years. If you're "concerned" about him missing time then you'd have that same concern for just about any other player in the NBA. That kind of makes that an irrational fear, doesn't it?

[Granath]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

You're wrong about some of your figures above (for instance, SI doesn't have him 29th) but let's just say you're right. Say Hayward is around the 25th best player in the league even though he plays in a small market and, when pace adjusted, his stats exceed guys like Paul George. But let's throw all of that out and say he's as low as 25.

So what?

That means that not every team has at least ONE player as good as he is. It still means he's an All Star. It still means he's better than about 95% of the other players in this league. So what if he's a great #2 or a 1(b) choice on a good team?

If adding in a guy who is better than 95% of the NBA is somehow ho-hum then the problem is with your perception of reality. The point you're trying to argue above is nonsensical. No one has claimed that Gordon Hayward is the 2nd coming of Larry Bird. His addition does, however, make this team substantially better and since we were already an ECF team then that makes us pretty [dang] good, doesn't it?

[Atzar]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

This is good info, and stuff that I've noticed myself.  It seems like your fireworks were based on an expectation that we would get Paul George, but he's not the #1 option you covet either.
 Maybe before his leg injury he was close to that level.  Not now.  VORP, WS, and Box Plus/Minus all rank Paul George as the eighth SF in the NBA pecking order, behind (not in order) LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Durant, Butler, Hayward, and Porter. 

I don't think real 'fireworks' were ever on the table.  A guy like Anthony Davis... fireworks.  That's comparable to adding Kevin Garnett.  But he's unrealistic right now, even with our stash of assets.  And nobody else on that level is even in the conversation.

[mutineer33]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

You're wrong about some of your figures above (for instance, SI doesn't have him 29th) but let's just say you're right. Say Hayward is around the 25th best player in the league even though he plays in a small market and, when pace adjusted, his stats exceed guys like Paul George. But let's throw all of that out and say he's as low as 25.

So what?

That means that not every team has at least ONE player as good as he is. It still means he's an All Star. It still means he's better than about 95% of the other players in this league. So what if he's a great #2 or a 1(b) choice on a good team?

If adding in a guy who is better than 95% of the NBA is somehow ho-hum then the problem is with your perception of reality. The point you're trying to argue above is nonsensical. No one has claimed that Gordon Hayward is the 2nd coming of Larry Bird. His addition does, however, make this team substantially better and since we were already an ECF team then that makes us pretty [dang] good, doesn't it?

Ok say Hayward is #25 ... with 150 starters in the league, that puts him into the 17th percentile of NBA starters. Not bad, but further proof that he is a solid #2 on a good team.

BTW i rechecked my SI article. He was ranked 29th. Unfortunately the SI site headlines are  a bit wonky and appears to be a projection written in 9/16 and not a summary. The other points still stand.

[rochrist]

I agreed with Roy a month ago when he said he would be very happy with Hayward and Fultz in the off season. Fultz turned into Tatum and IMO seems like just a good of a guess when predicting 19 year old kids.

I'm not too disappointed with Tatum. Can't really tell at this age. The proof will be in the pudding, and Ainge just put a lot more pressure on our pudding by trading out of the top spot to get him.

The team did improve because, in fairness, it was hard not to given our situation. That doesn't necessarily mean we had a great offseason. I'm sure our aspirations were bigger, including but not limited to getting Paul George, not having to trade Bradley, and once we had to -- perhaps finding a better deal.

Again, no one has graded this season a failure. But it's most certainly a mixed bag. Giving a gigantic contract to an oft-injured dude with one great season under his belt is not exactly a  clear-cut win.

Wait are you referencing Hayward with this? He hasn't missed more than 10 games in a year since 2012 and has improved his scoring every single season.

He's also never played more than 80, and seems to invariably miss 5-10 games on average each season. I know some people don't care about this, but to me it's not a good indicator.

Never played more than 80. Not sure if serious.l

[mutineer33]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

This is good info, and stuff that I've noticed myself.  It seems like your fireworks were based on an expectation that we would get Paul George, but he's not the #1 option you covet either.
 Maybe before his leg injury he was close to that level.  Not now.  VORP, WS, and Box Plus/Minus all rank Paul George as the eighth SF in the NBA pecking order, behind (not in order) LeBron, Kawhi, Giannis, Durant, Butler, Hayward, and Porter. 

I don't think real 'fireworks' were ever on the table.  A guy like Anthony Davis... fireworks.  That's comparable to adding Kevin Garnett.  But he's unrealistic right now, even with our stash of assets.  And nobody else on that level is even in the conversation.

I was interested in George only to the extent that he would agree to an extension or at least give a strong indicator he would be willing to resign with the Celtics. Not concerned about cap implications as I have not bought in to the idea of bringing the brinks trucks to IT and think we need to move on after this year..  I realized George agreeing to these conditions was unlikely, and never held out much hope.  That said if the price was only crowder, bradley, and a future protected #1 (Mem or LAC) i might have been happy to take the chance.  I would take 1 year of PG13 over 2 years of MM 10 times out of 10.

But there were other names out there too.  Porzingis might have been an illusion but there was a lot of hype about dealing him.  We wound up punting on Butler too, who went very cheaply to Minnesota.  I was also in on Kevin Love, although that idea was not well received here.  At the least, he would have solved our Reb woes. Even Cousins was interesting to me.

I just don't buy the idea that you can win without rebounding.

As it is, we got another very good player, but one who plays the wing, where we have just invested two #3 picks, Not to mention having Servicable players like Crowder on the roster. We had to trade AB for pennies on the dollar, even to do this.

It has been a decent offseason in terms of incremental improvements but not the huge win some want to make it out to be.

Anthony Davis .... yes .... that would be fireworks (although very unlikely to happen).  All would be forgiven if Ainge pulled that off.

As it is, we will need to wait another year. See what happens with IT, Watch our young players slagged through yet more trade rumors, hold our breath and hope Ainge finally delivers his "fireworks" before the Brooklyn payload becomes history

[celticsclay]

The stuff you find to complain about boggles the mind. He's played more games than Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, George or Butler the last 4 seasons.   

I don't have a problem with that. I will also be very happy to be way off on this.

You are way off. Hayward has started 93.29% of the maximum number of games the last 4 years. If you're "concerned" about him missing time then you'd have that same concern for just about any other player in the NBA. That kind of makes that an irrational fear, doesn't it?

I'll add that this board has a lot better discourse when someone says something ridiculous that gets disproven with data and they are willing to back off of it rather than just being stubborn.

[chilidawg]

We added Hayward, Morris, Baynes, Tatum, Zizic and Ojeleye.  We subtracted Bradley, Amir, JJ, Zeller, Green and probably Mickey and Jackson.  We still have the Brooklyn 18 pick and young players like Brown, Smart and Rozier.  Personally I'm pumped about the off-season and optimistic about the coming season.  That's just me though.  Feel free to anguish about our state of affairs all you want.

[Rida]

All you need to know is that the author of this piece, Andrew Sharp is a Wizard's fan, and he was at Game 7 in the Garden.

Those scars don't heal quickly

I heard him with the same Spiel on his Open Floor Podcast and really couldn't disagree with his point of view more.

The argument that we could have got George, is all well and good, but the fact is the sequence HAD to be Hayward first then George, Danny can't control Pritchard getting fleeced and jumping the gun on a horrible trade that would have been there today.

Would sharp have the same point of view if we traded:

Bradley
Olynk
Zeller
Amir Johnson

For

Hayward
Tatum
Morris
Baynes

Thats the only lense you should evaluate this offseason through

[Big333223]

Fwiw, Kevin O'Connor has the C's as his #2 biggest offseason winner (behind Houston).

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-free-agency-winners-losers-houston-rockets-indiana-pacers-44c3aa8d09f1

[jdz101]

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

I like Hayward enough but, but I just don't seem him as the franchise savior, so many here seem to think he is.  He ranked as the 19th best player last year (tied with Ty Lawson and just behind Rudy Gay -- just ahead of Kevin Love and Paul Milsap).

If a metric rates Ty Lawson and Rudy Gay as top-20 players, I suspect it's broken.

Well a universal truth about metrics is that people use and abuse them when they support a persons point of view, and dismiss them as broken or worthless when they do not. Since the interpretation of metrics is so subjective, lets take a look at at some subjetive rankings:

Hoopshype ranks Hayward #22, just ahead of Klay Thompson and Demar DeRozan and Just behind Paul Milsap and Mike Conley.

SI ranks Hayward #29, just ahead of Derrick Favors and Kevin Love and Just behind Conley and Kyrie

Bleacher Report ranks Hayword #27  Just ahead of Beal and K walker and just behind Milsap and Lillard.

TheSCORE has Hayward as #22 Just ahead of Whiteside and B Griffin and just behind Kyrie

Want more objective parameters than the informed opinions above? Choose your metric:

Choose your metric:

PER: Not in top 20
Usage Pct: Not in top 20
Win Shares: #15
VORP: not in top 20

I am not saying he is trash.  I am just saying that outside the land of Green Koolaid, subjective and objective measurements show him for what he is ... a fringe Top 20-25 player in the league. This makes him good enough to be a solid #2 player on a very good team.

As a much beloved :p  former Celtics Coach once said " Larry Bird is not walking through those doors people".

^^
How I can tell you didn't watch Hayward last year, either in the playoffs, or in the regular season. Thanks for letting me being able to chalk you up with Kozlodoev on the list of uninformed people about how good Gordon Hayward is.

If you exclude one game against the clippers when he had food poisoning, he had absolutely enormous numbers in that series, on a team that plays slow half court set after half court set with very little transition play. He was also one of the few shining lights against GSW in a series where Utah were completely outgunned, top to bottom.

There is a very strong chance that once he dons a Celtics jersey and plays for Brad Stevens instead of Snyder, those offensive numbers that were already very respectable will go up further.

[Moranis]

Boston had a very good offseason, but it certainly could have been a lot better.  George is a difference maker on this team, instead Boston let him go to another team for what was basically peanuts.

[kozlodoev]

Fwiw, Kevin O'Connor has the C's as his #2 biggest offseason winner (behind Houston).

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-free-agency-winners-losers-houston-rockets-indiana-pacers-44c3aa8d09f1

Kevin O'Connor is a former CSNNE and CelticsBlog staff writer, FWIW.