Just like i said........ the loss of Bradley undermines the

[Rosco917]

The loss of AB next year negates your point. The Celtics could never afford to keep IT and Bradley. Morris is probably the best we could do considering AB is free agent next year, and about to be seriously paid.

Unless you're thinking of not sighing IT...that's a different conversation completely.

[RockinRyA]

Hayward signing! We great downgraded our 2 guard position in order to get a mediocre PF. I would rather have seen Avery walk than do this a few days after landing a player like Hayward.

I'm probably the most committed IT4 guy in here, but Bradley being a defensive stalwart was a prerequisite next to him. Bradley was one of our best shooters, our best on ball defender, and last year was one of our best rebounders. Hayward will make up some of this things, but not all of them, and i'm a lot less impressed that they won't be playing together.

+Hayward - Bradley just doesn't impress me. It's an upgrade but both after moving Smart would have made for a better ball club. I'm now left rooting for a Jamal Crawford signing to get some shooting back, no way Jaylen can be a starting 2 guard next year.

here we go again. Didnt we already trashed your points in the other thread?

You really think bradley+olynyk is better than Hayward+Morris? Esp given that Bradley is leaving next year and the cost to keep KO this year?

[Dino Pitino]

Hayward signing! We great downgraded our 2 guard position in order to get a mediocre PF. I would rather have seen Avery walk than do this a few days after landing a player like Hayward.

I'm probably the most committed IT4 guy in here, but Bradley being a defensive stalwart was a prerequisite next to him. Bradley was one of our best shooters, our best on ball defender, and last year was one of our best rebounders. Hayward will make up some of this things, but not all of them, and i'm a lot less impressed that they won't be playing together.

+Hayward - Bradley just doesn't impress me. It's an upgrade but both after moving Smart would have made for a better ball club. I'm now left rooting for a Jamal Crawford signing to get some shooting back, no way Jaylen can be a starting 2 guard next year.

I'm convinced. You used such overwhelming evidence in your post that your point is certainly irrefutable.

When life itself is lunatic who knows where the madless lies.

Well, sometimes it's just easier to humor a lunatic than actually bother to disagree with them.

There's no one on this forum that's a bigger AB fan than I am. I'm one of the few who defended his contract 3 years ago. When everyone else was talking about how Bradley wasn't worth anywhere near $8m, I said it was a good deal. I'm the one who created the "Ode to Avery" thread. I really like that guy.

But there's a whole host of factors that make this a decent move:

(1) We couldn't resign him next year. It was either AB or IT. There was no feasible "both" option.

(2) Bradley had his best season last year but it wasn't sustainable. He started off smoking hot - 19ppg and 9rpb his first couple of months. He slid back to the median throughout the entire year and his stats after the All-Star break 13.6/4.5 with a TS% of .518 are easily achievable by Brown. Truthfully, AB wasn't really very good from December on of last year. I believe Brown surpasses those stats this coming year. In short, I don't think Bradley leaving will really impact the offensive end of the court.

(3) Where Bradley will be missed is on the defensive end of the court. But we got killed by large back courts last year with and without AB. Adding the 6'7" Brown back there will go a long way to solving that issue. Add in Smart at 6'4" and we have a backcourt with great size and defensive capabilities. We'll gain in size what we lose in man-on defense.

(4) Now starting Brown/Smart in the back court would be a problem in years past because any time we took IT off the floor the offense stagnated. That's again something else Bradley couldn't help with. With Hayward out there that won't happen. That's another huge plus.

(5) Bradley, as good as he was, doesn't fit multiple roles. This caused problems when putting together guys on the court. Bradley couldn't move to the 3. He couldn't play the 1. Now almost every single expected major contributor plays multiple positions. Brad love being able to mix-and-match his guys to exploit opposing team's weaknesses. He's better able to do that with Bradley out the door.

I'm not saying we won't miss him. I just don't see it as a massive loss. We take a step back losing him but 3 or 4 forward with Hayward coming on board. And we were going to take that step back either this year or next anyway because we couldn't keep him around. If someone wants to wring their hands and think this was a huge problem then let them.

This post should be mandatory reading.

[jade88]

Hayward signing! We great downgraded our 2 guard position in order to get a mediocre PF. I would rather have seen Avery walk than do this a few days after landing a player like Hayward.

I'm probably the most committed IT4 guy in here, but Bradley being a defensive stalwart was a prerequisite next to him. Bradley was one of our best shooters, our best on ball defender, and last year was one of our best rebounders. Hayward will make up some of this things, but not all of them, and i'm a lot less impressed that they won't be playing together.

+Hayward - Bradley just doesn't impress me. It's an upgrade but both after moving Smart would have made for a better ball club. I'm now left rooting for a Jamal Crawford signing to get some shooting back, no way Jaylen can be a starting 2 guard next year.

I'm convinced. You used such overwhelming evidence in your post that your point is certainly irrefutable.

When life itself is lunatic who knows where the madless lies.

Well, sometimes it's just easier to humor a lunatic than actually bother to disagree with them.

There's no one on this forum that's a bigger AB fan than I am. I'm one of the few who defended his contract 3 years ago. When everyone else was talking about how Bradley wasn't worth anywhere near $8m, I said it was a good deal. I'm the one who created the "Ode to Avery" thread. I really like that guy.

But there's a whole host of factors that make this a decent move:

(1) We couldn't resign him next year. It was either AB or IT. There was no feasible "both" option.

(2) Bradley had his best season last year but it wasn't sustainable. He started off smoking hot - 19ppg and 9rpb his first couple of months. He slid back to the median throughout the entire year and his stats after the All-Star break 13.6/4.5 with a TS% of .518 are easily achievable by Brown. Truthfully, AB wasn't really very good from December on of last year. I believe Brown surpasses those stats this coming year. In short, I don't think Bradley leaving will really impact the offensive end of the court.

(3) Where Bradley will be missed is on the defensive end of the court. But we got killed by large back courts last year with and without AB. Adding the 6'7" Brown back there will go a long way to solving that issue. Add in Smart at 6'4" and we have a backcourt with great size and defensive capabilities. We'll gain in size what we lose in man-on defense.

(4) Now starting Brown/Smart in the back court would be a problem in years past because any time we took IT off the floor the offense stagnated. That's again something else Bradley couldn't help with. With Hayward out there that won't happen. That's another huge plus.

(5) Bradley, as good as he was, doesn't fit multiple roles. This caused problems when putting together guys on the court. Bradley couldn't move to the 3. He couldn't play the 1. Now almost every single expected major contributor plays multiple positions. Brad love being able to mix-and-match his guys to exploit opposing team's weaknesses. He's better able to do that with Bradley out the door.

I'm not saying we won't miss him. I just don't see it as a massive loss. We take a step back losing him but 3 or 4 forward with Hayward coming on board. And we were going to take that step back either this year or next anyway because we couldn't keep him around. If someone wants to wring their hands and think this was a huge problem then let them.

Awesome insight, i enjoyed the read. I hope that you are right and that i'm simply in my feels over one of my favorite being moved. We shall find out in due time.

[Roy H.]

The team is quite a bit better. Individual players don't matter as much.

Hayward + Morris >> AB + KO

But that just lumps KO (who we weren't going to resign) into the bad AB for Morris deal.
You could also add more letters behind the KO (GG + AJ + JY + JJ) and it doesn't make losing Avery any easier, KO is just part of the crew that was never going to be resigned.

Ok. Then:

Hayward + Morris >> AB

Better?

There was no realistic scenario where we signed Hayward and also kept IT and AB long term.

[mainevent]

Hayward is a much better player than Avery.  Hate to tell you that.  And, Hayward can play SG, with Crowder at the 3.  So upgrade all around.

I acknowledged that Hayward is better, much better because he can create his own shot and is pretty much better in every regard. All i'm saying is that having Hayward in addition to Bradley would have been more of a win now move, than dropping our best 2 guard after signing him.

I'm also not convinced Hayward can play the 2.

Well then it's a good thing that YOU don't HAVE to be convinced! 

[jade88]

Would it have been possible to resign both Thomas and Bradley next year and go over the cap, we the idea that we could move one later on for that elusive superstar trade that never comes to fruition lol? Was it totally impossible to resign both?

I'd rather have another star to add to our big 3 than Bradley obviously, but if that guy isn't coming why would Bradley be hard to move if we kept him?

That's the only thing left on my mind here.

[flybono]

He does not fit in our system of versatility, and injury prone, and can't really stop ellite offensive guard
Let him take his paycheck on another team and wish him goodluck is what you should do

Are you serious? Bradley was our best defensive player on point guards......

He might have been. But the other 4 guys on the court allowed 120 pts per game in the playoffs

[footey]

Hayward signing! We great downgraded our 2 guard position in order to get a mediocre PF. I would rather have seen Avery walk than do this a few days after landing a player like Hayward.

I'm probably the most committed IT4 guy in here, but Bradley being a defensive stalwart was a prerequisite next to him. Bradley was one of our best shooters, our best on ball defender, and last year was one of our best rebounders. Hayward will make up some of this things, but not all of them, and i'm a lot less impressed that they won't be playing together.

+Hayward - Bradley just doesn't impress me. It's an upgrade but both after moving Smart would have made for a better ball club. I'm now left rooting for a Jamal Crawford signing to get some shooting back, no way Jaylen can be a starting 2 guard next year.

I'm convinced. You used such overwhelming evidence in your post that your point is certainly irrefutable.

When life itself is lunatic who knows where the madless lies.

Well, sometimes it's just easier to humor a lunatic than actually bother to disagree with them.

There's no one on this forum that's a bigger AB fan than I am. I'm one of the few who defended his contract 3 years ago. When everyone else was talking about how Bradley wasn't worth anywhere near $8m, I said it was a good deal. I'm the one who created the "Ode to Avery" thread. I really like that guy.

But there's a whole host of factors that make this a decent move:

(1) We couldn't resign him next year. It was either AB or IT. There was no feasible "both" option.

(2) Bradley had his best season last year but it wasn't sustainable. He started off smoking hot - 19ppg and 9rpb his first couple of months. He slid back to the median throughout the entire year and his stats after the All-Star break 13.6/4.5 with a TS% of .518 are easily achievable by Brown. Truthfully, AB wasn't really very good from December on of last year. I believe Brown surpasses those stats this coming year. In short, I don't think Bradley leaving will really impact the offensive end of the court.

(3) Where Bradley will be missed is on the defensive end of the court. But we got killed by large back courts last year with and without AB. Adding the 6'7" Brown back there will go a long way to solving that issue. Add in Smart at 6'4" and we have a backcourt with great size and defensive capabilities. We'll gain in size what we lose in man-on defense.

(4) Now starting Brown/Smart in the back court would be a problem in years past because any time we took IT off the floor the offense stagnated. That's again something else Bradley couldn't help with. With Hayward out there that won't happen. That's another huge plus.

(5) Bradley, as good as he was, doesn't fit multiple roles. This caused problems when putting together guys on the court. Bradley couldn't move to the 3. He couldn't play the 1. Now almost every single expected major contributor plays multiple positions. Brad love being able to mix-and-match his guys to exploit opposing team's weaknesses. He's better able to do that with Bradley out the door.

I'm not saying we won't miss him. I just don't see it as a massive loss. We take a step back losing him but 3 or 4 forward with Hayward coming on board. And we were going to take that step back either this year or next anyway because we couldn't keep him around. If someone wants to wring their hands and think this was a huge problem then let them.

TP. Couldn't have said it any better.

[crimson_stallion]

Trading Bradley was an inevitability. He deserves our respect and admiration but he'll be know as one of the 2 the best guys from stage 1 of the rebuild. This summer we've moved into stage 2.

Maybe. But someone sill needs to make a compelling case about why two years of Morris is better than one year of Bradley.

It's not, but this is a false dichotomy.  We didn't trade Bradley for Morris; we traded him for Morris AND THE ABILITY TO KEEP BOTH SMART AND CROWDER.  Nobody has said that this trade makes sense in a vacuum, because it doesn't, but here in the real world it actually does.  Maybe there was a better deal out there (only the front office knows), but acting like this deal was about Bradley vs. Morris is just playing dumb

This has yet to be seen.

[dreamgreen]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. People get unrealistic about these things they want a 25 man roster with a $400m payroll! It's called building a team within the guidelines of the NBA rules.

[Granath]

Would it have been possible to resign both Thomas and Bradley next year and go over the cap, we the idea that we could move one later on for that elusive superstar trade that never comes to fruition lol? Was it totally impossible to resign both?

I'd rather have another star to add to our big 3 than Bradley obviously, but if that guy isn't coming why would Bradley be hard to move if we kept him?

That's the only thing left on my mind here.

Not really. Our open cap space ended this year. Any deal next year would have required a S&T, making things far more complicated. So if we were going to sign a good FA, this was the year to do it - and we just got the best one on the market.

Without signing Hayward we could have retained both AB and IT next year. But once we added him on it's simply not feasible. It's not a matter of the cap but the tax. I've detailed out in other threads how the tax builds up enormously very quickly. You simply can't get into the tax very deep before you're paying $20m or more in penalties. It's just too severe.

So the only way to keep AB is to NOT get another top flight talent. It's an either-or scenario.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Avery was my favorite player and it wasn't close but he isn't a Cs anymore, I want everything to work out for us and I don't care how we get there! I'm sad but I would never wish for us to be worse off just so I can be right.


Time to destroy the league!

[Atzar]

It's worth noting that statistics give very mixed reviews of Boston's defensive perimeter players.

According to 82games' Opponent Counterpart Production, Bradley and Crowder do well.  Crowder, however, does poorly when moved to the 4.  It's worth noting that this statistic doesn't attempt to differentiate between the times when Bradley guards 1s and when he guards 2s; it more or less considers him a full-time 2 and lumps all of that data into one stat.  Marcus Smart is roughly average at either PG or SG, according to this metric. 

According to basketball-reference's box plus/minus stat, Smart rates fairly well but Crowder is average and Bradley is actually a bit below. 

Huge caveat here:  defensive statistical measurements are in their infancy and should be taken with a large grain of salt.  Specifically, they currently struggle when attempting to separate a player's defensive impact from the influence of his teammates.  For example, Gobert's presence is going to have a positive effect on Hayward's defensive metrics, while IT is going to make Bradley look worse.  I chose to share BPM because it attempts to adjust for this effect, but I'm not sure how well it performs this task. 

For what it's worth, both Hayward and Morris grade as roughly average according to BPM, while 82games loves Hayward's defense and thinks Morris is average. 

[BitterJim]

Trading Bradley was an inevitability. He deserves our respect and admiration but he'll be know as one of the 2 the best guys from stage 1 of the rebuild. This summer we've moved into stage 2.

Maybe. But someone sill needs to make a compelling case about why two years of Morris is better than one year of Bradley.

It's not, but this is a false dichotomy.  We didn't trade Bradley for Morris; we traded him for Morris AND THE ABILITY TO KEEP BOTH SMART AND CROWDER.  Nobody has said that this trade makes sense in a vacuum, because it doesn't, but here in the real world it actually does.  Maybe there was a better deal out there (only the front office knows), but acting like this deal was about Bradley vs. Morris is just playing dumb

This has yet to be seen.

Well, no.  It has yet to be seen if we end up keeping both or trading one (or both) in a later deal, but right now we have the ability to keep both of them.  And if we do end up dealing one or both later, the ability to keep the two means that we still have leverage with other teams.  Before the Bradley trade, we needed to move someone, and everyone knew it.