LeBron will likely pass Jordan this playoffs

[Moranis]

Something that has not been mentioned in this thread, it really can not be argued that the East is not incredibly flawed weak right now. Perhaps the weakest it has ever been. While I hated seeing it, it wasn't completely unjustified for people to call us the weakest number 1 seed ever. Of the top teams in the east we don't really have a superstar. Neither does Toronto. Neither does Atlanta. Perhaps Wall is the closest to a superstar in his prime in the conference on a top tier team outside of Cleveland.

Who was Lebron beating to get to the finals?

Jordan's first 3peat really had some formidable teams. One of them was, ironically, the Cavs. The Cavs had a 4 time all-star in Mark Price, Brad Daugherty a 5x all star and Larry Nance a 3x all star. What team in the east this year is closest to that?

Other notable teams in the east included the 60 win Knicks team featuring superstar and future hall of famer Ewing in his prime with both Starks and Oakley making the all star the following year.

Even at team like the Pistons had a still effective Dumars and Thomas in the all star game and Dennis Rodman pulling down an astonishing 18 rebounds a game. 

Unfortunately now when you think about the best players in the game Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Thompson, Durant, Lillard, Davis, Leonard are all in the west. How many east players even make the all-NBA teams 5 out of 15? It really is unfortunate because I would love to see the East be more competitive and the playoffs are honestly pretty boring at the moment.

The Bulls never won until the C's and Pistons declined.

Then the expansion era started, with half a dozen new teams watering down the talent pool. There were some great players in the 90's but the teams themselves had questionable depth.

The 1993 Houston Rockets won a championship with
Hakeem
Otis Thorpe
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Robert Horry

Outside of Hakeem, that team is mediocre and starless. but they managed to beat the celebrated Knicks in the Finals.

Speaking of the Knicks, would Oakley make an all-star team in today's league? What role would he play? A Tristan Thompson type? Was Starks anywhere near as good as today's top guards? IMO he's a far cry from a Kyrie Irving or a Klay Thompson.

Outside of Ewing that Knicks time was wildly overrated IMO.

Who did Reggie Miller have? Rik Smits, the Davis boys and Mark Jackson? That's not a contending roster.

Jordan was the best player of this era and took advantage of some thin opposing rosters.

He never beat a team as good as the Cavs, Warriors, or probably even the current Spurs.

thank you. I made this point already multiple times but because I said it clay just disregards it as nonsense.  The Bulls played exactly 4 teams with multiple HOFers on the roster in their 6 title seasons and two of them were the first season Pistons and Lakers that were old, which also happens to describe the other two which were the Jazz in the last two finals.  Jordan had a very easy run during those title seasons as the both the East and West lacked any other juggernaut teams. Of the 7 teams James has played in the Finals only Dallas is comparable to those teams and the Celtics teams that Miami went through were also better teams.

You put any all time great on the Bulls with Pippen in the 90's and that team is dominating championships.  There was just a void brought on by the 80's greats falling off a cliff and all of the expansion.  The league might have looked a lot different if Bird didn't injure his back, Magic didn't get hiv, Thomas and Joe D didnt age overnight, and guys like Bias didn't kill themselves with drugs.

Moranis I am actually trying to address this point. One of your main points in saying Lebron is comparable to Jordan right now is the number of finals that Lebron made compared to Jordan.

I have been pointing out that the teams that Jordan had to get past every year in the east through the late 80 and the early 90's had multiple in their prime all stars. Compared to this, Lebron has had an extremely easy path getting to the finals the last 2 seasons and this season.
You have teams like the Wizards, Celtics, Raptors that have either 1 or at most 2 all stars. Of this group I think only Wall would be considered an in his prime all star. Can you really refute that and say these other teams in the top 4 are comparable to a Cavs team that had 3 multiple time all stars that Jordan beat every year? To me it isn't close.

I also think if you are consistent with yourself you agree the east has been pathetic the last couple of seasons cause I know you don't think the Celtics are a great team, yet were able to win the most games in it this year.

Also to be clear, I do give Lebron credit where it is due. Beating the warriors last year was very impressive, injuries and suspensions and all, that was a really good team that he beat once he got there and I give him credit for that. If he is able to win again this year and beat that team he will get even more credit and it becomes a lot closer.

However, he does not get credit for making the east finals when there are no legitimate contenders in it. If he is a superstar playing alongside two legit all stars and an embarrassment of riches as role players he NEEDs to do that and it gets him no closer to Jordan. It should also be pointed out that part of the reason the east became so bad during the start of his finals run is because in the process of forming the big 3 in Miami he gutted two promising potential contenders in the process. If Bosh stays in Toronto and grows with Derozen and they add a few more pieces, how good does that team become? Maybe they still get Lowry because they got him for cheap. Isn't that a very impressive team for Lebron to have to go through each year?

Lowry and DeRozan have each made 3 all star games. Lowry the last three and DeRozan 3 of the last 4 seasons.  Last year Lowry was 3rd team all NBA and DeRozan has a good chance of being that this year with his top 5 finish in ppg.  Valanciunas is a very good center. Ibaka is a very good PF.  Carroll is a solid SF who started on a 60 win team before ever landing in Toronto.  This notion that you have that Toronto isn't comparable to teams of the 90's is just silly. 

Atlanta won 60 games with 4 all stars including some multiple time all stars.  The Cavs swept them but that doesn't mean Atlanta wasn't any good it means the Cavs were just that good.  Chicago from that same season was starting a former MVP in Rose, a first ballot HOFer in Gasol, a just entering his prime franchise player in Butler, and a DPOY candidate in Noah (a multiple time all star and he even made an all NBA team along with the 3 all defense teams).  Plus some quality bench players like Gibson.  That Bulls team is better than the Pacers and Knicks of the 90's and I dont think it is all that close.

It isn't surprising that people look more fondly of the past but the 90's was perhaps the weakest era in basketball history (I think you could make a case for the 70's as well).  Jordan had a very easy march to the title and that isn't just the East, the West didn't provide much on or a roadblock either.  I mean the Blazers are arguably the weakest finals team ever (and that includes the AI Sixers and Lebron's first Cavs team).  That team really was Clyde and a bunch of role players and Clyde is a great player he isn't a special all time great type player. 

[celticsclay]

Something that has not been mentioned in this thread, it really can not be argued that the East is not incredibly flawed weak right now. Perhaps the weakest it has ever been. While I hated seeing it, it wasn't completely unjustified for people to call us the weakest number 1 seed ever. Of the top teams in the east we don't really have a superstar. Neither does Toronto. Neither does Atlanta. Perhaps Wall is the closest to a superstar in his prime in the conference on a top tier team outside of Cleveland.

Who was Lebron beating to get to the finals?

Jordan's first 3peat really had some formidable teams. One of them was, ironically, the Cavs. The Cavs had a 4 time all-star in Mark Price, Brad Daugherty a 5x all star and Larry Nance a 3x all star. What team in the east this year is closest to that?

Other notable teams in the east included the 60 win Knicks team featuring superstar and future hall of famer Ewing in his prime with both Starks and Oakley making the all star the following year.

Even at team like the Pistons had a still effective Dumars and Thomas in the all star game and Dennis Rodman pulling down an astonishing 18 rebounds a game. 

Unfortunately now when you think about the best players in the game Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Thompson, Durant, Lillard, Davis, Leonard are all in the west. How many east players even make the all-NBA teams 5 out of 15? It really is unfortunate because I would love to see the East be more competitive and the playoffs are honestly pretty boring at the moment.

The Bulls never won until the C's and Pistons declined.

Then the expansion era started, with half a dozen new teams watering down the talent pool. There were some great players in the 90's but the teams themselves had questionable depth.

The 1993 Houston Rockets won a championship with
Hakeem
Otis Thorpe
Vernon Maxwell
Kenny Smith
Robert Horry

Outside of Hakeem, that team is mediocre and starless. but they managed to beat the celebrated Knicks in the Finals.

Speaking of the Knicks, would Oakley make an all-star team in today's league? What role would he play? A Tristan Thompson type? Was Starks anywhere near as good as today's top guards? IMO he's a far cry from a Kyrie Irving or a Klay Thompson.

Outside of Ewing that Knicks time was wildly overrated IMO.

Who did Reggie Miller have? Rik Smits, the Davis boys and Mark Jackson? That's not a contending roster.

Jordan was the best player of this era and took advantage of some thin opposing rosters.

He never beat a team as good as the Cavs, Warriors, or probably even the current Spurs.

thank you. I made this point already multiple times but because I said it clay just disregards it as nonsense.  The Bulls played exactly 4 teams with multiple HOFers on the roster in their 6 title seasons and two of them were the first season Pistons and Lakers that were old, which also happens to describe the other two which were the Jazz in the last two finals.  Jordan had a very easy run during those title seasons as the both the East and West lacked any other juggernaut teams. Of the 7 teams James has played in the Finals only Dallas is comparable to those teams and the Celtics teams that Miami went through were also better teams.

You put any all time great on the Bulls with Pippen in the 90's and that team is dominating championships.  There was just a void brought on by the 80's greats falling off a cliff and all of the expansion.  The league might have looked a lot different if Bird didn't injure his back, Magic didn't get hiv, Thomas and Joe D didnt age overnight, and guys like Bias didn't kill themselves with drugs.

Moranis I am actually trying to address this point. One of your main points in saying Lebron is comparable to Jordan right now is the number of finals that Lebron made compared to Jordan.

I have been pointing out that the teams that Jordan had to get past every year in the east through the late 80 and the early 90's had multiple in their prime all stars. Compared to this, Lebron has had an extremely easy path getting to the finals the last 2 seasons and this season.
You have teams like the Wizards, Celtics, Raptors that have either 1 or at most 2 all stars. Of this group I think only Wall would be considered an in his prime all star. Can you really refute that and say these other teams in the top 4 are comparable to a Cavs team that had 3 multiple time all stars that Jordan beat every year? To me it isn't close.

I also think if you are consistent with yourself you agree the east has been pathetic the last couple of seasons cause I know you don't think the Celtics are a great team, yet were able to win the most games in it this year.

Also to be clear, I do give Lebron credit where it is due. Beating the warriors last year was very impressive, injuries and suspensions and all, that was a really good team that he beat once he got there and I give him credit for that. If he is able to win again this year and beat that team he will get even more credit and it becomes a lot closer.

However, he does not get credit for making the east finals when there are no legitimate contenders in it. If he is a superstar playing alongside two legit all stars and an embarrassment of riches as role players he NEEDs to do that and it gets him no closer to Jordan. It should also be pointed out that part of the reason the east became so bad during the start of his finals run is because in the process of forming the big 3 in Miami he gutted two promising potential contenders in the process. If Bosh stays in Toronto and grows with Derozen and they add a few more pieces, how good does that team become? Maybe they still get Lowry because they got him for cheap. Isn't that a very impressive team for Lebron to have to go through each year?

Lowry and DeRozan have each made 3 all star games. Lowry the last three and DeRozan 3 of the last 4 seasons.  Last year Lowry was 3rd team all NBA and DeRozan has a good chance of being that this year with his top 5 finish in ppg.  Valanciunas is a very good center. Ibaka is a very good PF.  Carroll is a solid SF who started on a 60 win team before ever landing in Toronto.  This notion that you have that Toronto isn't comparable to teams of the 90's is just silly. 

Atlanta won 60 games with 4 all stars including some multiple time all stars.  The Cavs swept them but that doesn't mean Atlanta wasn't any good it means the Cavs were just that good.  Chicago from that same season was starting a former MVP in Rose, a first ballot HOFer in Gasol, a just entering his prime franchise player in Butler, and a DPOY candidate in Noah (a multiple time all star and he even made an all NBA team along with the 3 all defense teams).  Plus some quality bench players like Gibson.  That Bulls team is better than the Pacers and Knicks of the 90's and I dont think it is all that close.

It isn't surprising that people look more fondly of the past but the 90's was perhaps the weakest era in basketball history (I think you could make a case for the 70's as well).  Jordan had a very easy march to the title and that isn't just the East, the West didn't provide much on or a roadblock either.  I mean the Blazers are arguably the weakest finals team ever (and that includes the AI Sixers and Lebron's first Cavs team).  That team really was Clyde and a bunch of role players and Clyde is a great player he isn't a special all time great type player.

You are moving the goalposts here and trying to muddle the discussion. It is pretty lame. Let us try to keep this simpler. You have repeatedly talked about how much credit Lebron deserves for getting to the Finals each year. I am saying he does not deserve much credit for that because the East is terrible (and he has been playing along two perennial all-stars each year).

So let's discuss this finals point.

My point was that a team like the Cavs had 3 guys that made at least 3 all star games and some really nice role players that we don't even need to get into. If you honestly think these raptors teams are as good as that we can agree to disagree. The fact that you are acting like Carroll, a player that is decimated by injury and on his way out of the league in 2017 while and averaged 15 minutes a game this post season, is a good player shows how ridiculous you are being.

I do think that Atlanta team was solid, as I have said before, and I would have loved to have seen them play a series at full strength against the Cavs. It is a pity that we never got to see that matchup because it could have been great and were forced to see a gimpy carroll (who was good before the injury), a suspended horford and I think an injured Korver.

The Bulls team was solid and gave them a good series. I would have loved to see them play a team that quality every year instead of the cakewalk of a joke the East has been the last few seasons.

[Moranis]

Lets look at that Cavs team from 91-92.  Price at the point had his 2nd all star season averaging 17 ppg and 7.4 apg.  Solid defender and shooter. Strong all around player.

Daugherty was a very good center (shame injuries ended his career) and was in the middle of 3 straight 20/10 seasons.  He was the main scoring option.

Nance at age 32 was that other 3 time all star (thoigh only 2 time that season).  He was a 17/8 career player which is basically what he was that season.

The rest of the playoff rotation was Ehlo, Hot Rod Williams, Mike Sanders, and John Battle.

Now let's look at Toronto from this year.  Lowry a 3 time all star at the point and averaging 22/7.  Better than Price. DeRozan 3 time all star and like Lowry just starting to role out the all star appearances. A legit #1 scoring option averaging over 27 and finishing in top 5 in league.  Adding 5 boards and 3 assists with credible enough defense. Different position but basically equivalent to Daugherty.  Valanciunas basically 12/10 this year. Not the scorer Nance was but basically an equivalent player.  Ibaka is far superior to Ehlo (especially at that point in Ehlo's career). Carroll is an equivalent player to Williams.  Tucker, Patterson, and Joseph are a much deeper and better bench then what the Cavs roles out.  Obviously Lowry was banged up and missed two games, but I'd take a healthy Raptors team this year over the early 90's Cavs in a playoff series assuming health from both teams and I don't think it is really all that close.

[celticsclay]

Lets look at that Cavs team from 91-92.  Price at the point had his 2nd all star season averaging 17 ppg and 7.4 apg.  Solid defender and shooter. Strong all around player.

Daugherty was a very good center (shame injuries ended his career) and was in the middle of 3 straight 20/10 seasons.  He was the main scoring option.

Nance at age 32 was that other 3 time all star (thoigh only 2 time that season).  He was a 17/8 career player which is basically what he was that season.

The rest of the playoff rotation was Ehlo, Hot Rod Williams, Mike Sanders, and John Battle.

Now let's look at Toronto from this year.  Lowry a 3 time all star at the point and averaging 22/7.  Better than Price. DeRozan 3 time all star and like Lowry just starting to role out the all star appearances. A legit #1 scoring option averaging over 27 and finishing in top 5 in league.  Adding 5 boards and 3 assists with credible enough defense. Different position but basically equivalent to Daugherty.  Valanciunas basically 12/10 this year. Not the scorer Nance was but basically an equivalent player.  Ibaka is far superior to Ehlo (especially at that point in Ehlo's career). Carroll is an equivalent player to Williams.  Tucker, Patterson, and Joseph are a much deeper and better bench then what the Cavs roles out.  Obviously Lowry was banged up and missed two games, but I'd take a healthy Raptors team this year over the early 90's Cavs in a playoff series assuming health from both teams and I don't think it is really all that close.

We can just agree to disagree man.

[tankcity!]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

[celticsclay]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

I agree with all of this, and have said as much. The Raptors are not a very competitive team and will most likely be "broken up" this year. Lowry is fairly old and broken down, Derozen is a nice player but not a superstar and Jonas, Carroll have really fallen off the last few years. Carroll to injuries, Jonas from the direction of the league. 

[celticsclay]

I don't agree with Green very often and really dislike his personality, but I do agree with him on talking about how bad the competition has been for the Cavs in the playoffs and not playing good basketball.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19338500/draymond-green-wishes-cleveland-cavaliers-opponents-more-competitive

[Moranis]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

ah but that isn't my argument, my argument is Jordan had an even easier time in the 90's than LeBron does now. Seriously Jordan's Bulls during all 6 title runs played exactly 4 series against teams with at least two HOFers and most of his series he played 0 HOFers including that Cavs team clay is speaking so highly of.  James obviously has had it easier in the East then if he was in the West but it has still been harder than Jordan.

[staticcc]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

GS was an all time last year too and Lebron beat them. He's already in the discussion. Winning it this year might put him on the same level. MJ will always be #1 but 1B is open.

[celticsclay]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

ah but that isn't my argument, my argument is Jordan had an even easier time in the 90's than LeBron does now. Seriously Jordan's Bulls during all 6 title runs played exactly 4 series against teams with at least two HOFers and most of his series he played 0 HOFers including that Cavs team clay is speaking so highly of.  James obviously has had it easier in the East then if he was in the West but it has still been harder than Jordan.

This is another random talking point you are selecting. One that is particularly useless because we obviously don't know how many teams Lebron is going against with hall of famers since many of them will not be in the hall of fame for 10 years. If I had to guess, of the fellow east teams this year, last year, and the year before, 0 had hall of famers in their prime when Lebron beat them in the east. Toronto it is hard to imagine Lowry or Derozen being there. It is even harder to imagine IT or Horford in there. It is possible Wall makes it, or perhaps Paul George, but they are a long ways away. Do the rest of the east teams have any hall of famers? The east is a joke and Lebron has a cakewalk to the finals right now. Arguing otherwise is just flapping your gums from Ohio about how great Lebron is.

[Moranis]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

ah but that isn't my argument, my argument is Jordan had an even easier time in the 90's than LeBron does now. Seriously Jordan's Bulls during all 6 title runs played exactly 4 series against teams with at least two HOFers and most of his series he played 0 HOFers including that Cavs team clay is speaking so highly of.  James obviously has had it easier in the East then if he was in the West but it has still been harder than Jordan.

This is another random talking point you are selecting. One that is particularly useless because we obviously don't know how many teams Lebron is going against with hall of famers since many of them will not be in the hall of fame for 10 years. If I had to guess, of the fellow east teams this year, last year, and the year before, 0 had hall of famers in their prime when Lebron beat them in the east. Toronto it is hard to imagine Lowry or Derozen being there. It is even harder to imagine IT or Horford in there. It is possible Wall makes it, or perhaps Paul George, but they are a long ways away. Do the rest of the east teams have any hall of famers? The east is a joke and Lebron has a cakewalk to the finals right now. Arguing otherwise is just flapping your gums from Ohio about how great Lebron is.

The Celtics team during this run had at least 2 HOFers. The Bulls team may have and either way had at least 1 and a former MVP. But every single team LeBron has played in the Finals has 2 HOFers unless Klay Thompson or Green doesn't get there (I think Klay does and Green does not).

[celticsclay]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

ah but that isn't my argument, my argument is Jordan had an even easier time in the 90's than LeBron does now. Seriously Jordan's Bulls during all 6 title runs played exactly 4 series against teams with at least two HOFers and most of his series he played 0 HOFers including that Cavs team clay is speaking so highly of.  James obviously has had it easier in the East then if he was in the West but it has still been harder than Jordan.

This is another random talking point you are selecting. One that is particularly useless because we obviously don't know how many teams Lebron is going against with hall of famers since many of them will not be in the hall of fame for 10 years. If I had to guess, of the fellow east teams this year, last year, and the year before, 0 had hall of famers in their prime when Lebron beat them in the east. Toronto it is hard to imagine Lowry or Derozen being there. It is even harder to imagine IT or Horford in there. It is possible Wall makes it, or perhaps Paul George, but they are a long ways away. Do the rest of the east teams have any hall of famers? The east is a joke and Lebron has a cakewalk to the finals right now. Arguing otherwise is just flapping your gums from Ohio about how great Lebron is.

The Celtics team during this run had at least 2 HOFers. The Bulls team may have and either way had at least 1 and a former MVP. But every single team LeBron has played in the Finals has 2 HOFers unless Klay Thompson or Green doesn't get there (I think Klay does and Green does not).

Wait are you talking about when Lebron finally beat pierce and kg in their mid 30s 2013 or whatever? You never cease to amaze me.  698

[Big333223]

A little context to the "who had better competition" conversation. I'm looking at who Lebron's teams beat in the ECF each season he made the finals.

In '07 the Pistons still had Billups, Hamilton, and Prince in their primes with Rasheed, McDyess, and Chris Webber rotating around the big positions. That team was top 7 in both offense and defense that season and was championship tested. They were also good enough to go back to the conference Finals the following year. James' best teammate that year was either Larry Hughes or Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

The '11 Bulls won 60 games and lost in 5 games to the Heat with a healthy Rose, Deng, Noah, and Boozer all playing just about the best basketball any of them ever would.

In '12 it was the last hurrah for the Celtics' Big 3. They were pretty much over the hill but it was the best Rondo would ever be.

In '13 and '14 it was that juggernaut Pacers team that found some kind of defensive cheat code for 2 years just as Paul George was coming into his own. It'll be interesting to see how history judges that team, given how quickly it all fell apart and that George is the only guy with a HoF chance. But with David West, George Hill, Lance Stephenson, and Hibbert that 5 can't be dismissed, even if their run was oddly brief. Took the Heat to 7 games and then 6 games.

In '15 it was a fool's gold Hawks team that won 60 games and everyone kind of wanted to take seriously but secretly knew wasn't the real deal. They were swept, but James did it without Kevin Love and only had Kyrie for 49 minutes over 2 of the 4 games.

Last year it was the Lowry/Derozan Raptors which is never play great in the playoffs but are still probably going down as one of the best Raptors teams of all time, fwiw.

[Celtics4ever]

LeBron has played in the Finals has 2 HOFers unless Klay Thompson or Green doesn't get there

A lot of Jordan foes had that too.   Malone and Stockton, for example.

Until he gets six rings, I don't think it is really up for discussion.   Right now, he has what a 50% win rate.  One can't say that of Jordan, he was always the best player when he played in the finals, one can't say that of LBJ,   Wade took over the one year.   Irving saved him last year.   Yes, he is a great player but he has had knacks of vanishing in this past in big moments.

[Moranis]

If Lebron beats GS this year in the Finals, then I think he should be in the discussion. I don't think them beating the Raptors was impressive. The East is bad. There are only 2 contenders this year. It's Cleveland and GS. The league is not as deep as it has been in past years. So Moranis, please stop using the LBJ gets to the final argument. It's really lame. The East has been and is garbage. That is a fact.

GS however is an all time team. I don't believe Jordan has played a team that good. So it would be a big kudos to Lebron if they win and it will help his legacy tremendously. This will be a huge series for Lebron and his legacy for sure. Can't wait. Jordan is my all time favorite, but I'm rooting for Lebron to win because I really hate GS. A bunch of losers that want it to be easy imo.

ah but that isn't my argument, my argument is Jordan had an even easier time in the 90's than LeBron does now. Seriously Jordan's Bulls during all 6 title runs played exactly 4 series against teams with at least two HOFers and most of his series he played 0 HOFers including that Cavs team clay is speaking so highly of.  James obviously has had it easier in the East then if he was in the West but it has still been harder than Jordan.

This is another random talking point you are selecting. One that is particularly useless because we obviously don't know how many teams Lebron is going against with hall of famers since many of them will not be in the hall of fame for 10 years. If I had to guess, of the fellow east teams this year, last year, and the year before, 0 had hall of famers in their prime when Lebron beat them in the east. Toronto it is hard to imagine Lowry or Derozen being there. It is even harder to imagine IT or Horford in there. It is possible Wall makes it, or perhaps Paul George, but they are a long ways away. Do the rest of the east teams have any hall of famers? The east is a joke and Lebron has a cakewalk to the finals right now. Arguing otherwise is just flapping your gums from Ohio about how great Lebron is.

The Celtics team during this run had at least 2 HOFers. The Bulls team may have and either way had at least 1 and a former MVP. But every single team LeBron has played in the Finals has 2 HOFers unless Klay Thompson or Green doesn't get there (I think Klay does and Green does not).

Wait are you talking about when Lebron finally beat pierce and kg in their mid 30s 2013 or whatever? You never cease to amaze me.  698

how old were Malone and Stockton? You know the two guys that comprise half of Jordan's 4 teams with multiple HOFers that were beaten I'm in the 6 title runs.

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.