LeBron will likely pass Jordan this playoffs

[JOMVP]

Well, Mike did skip 4 seasons in his career.

yea... yawn. He has half as many titles and this will be his 12th full prime season which is how many full prime seasons Jordan played. The comparison is dead.

MJ is the GOAT, but he had way better supporting casts with the exception of the first Miami title.

All of LeBron's  titles have come on a team that had ten times the supporting cast that Jordan had. Sure, Jordan had Pippen, who was a great player but what else?! LeBron whined about not having enough talent on his team this year when he has Kyrie, Love, Thompson, Josh Smith.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Bully ball isn't fun to watch.  Sure, he's a freak of nature.  Given his complete lack of injury history and the other factors zubi coincidentally laid out, he's probably used/is using PEDs.  He's also a whiney micro-manager that plays the game in a way that a lot of people don't enjoy watching, Celtics fan or otherwise.  The Jordan comparison is a silly one.  MJ was twice the competitor, had half the size/athletic gifts, and was 1.5x more talented.

Wait a second. You are saying Michael Jordan had "half the size/athletic gifts"?

Half?

Michael Jordan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UruofXufVuo

Exaggerated for effect, but prime LeBron is the superior athlete with an emphasis on size.  It's his historically elite size, when coupled with his nearly comparable agility, that makes him probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game.  We've never seen someone so physically dominant in the sport -- his most redeeming quality imo. 

Granted relative size/athleticism is sensitive to change over time, I think an argument could be made that Westbrook is more athletically gifted than prime MJ.  But Jordan was the best overall player due to his athleticism, talent, work ethic, and tenacity.  He had it all to the extent that he chose to walk away prematurely, when he no longer felt challenged by the game.  The competition among their two eras is subject for debate, but that holds true. 

[Boris Badenov]

Bully ball isn't fun to watch.  Sure, he's a freak of nature.  Given his complete lack of injury history and the other factors zubi coincidentally laid out, he's probably used/is using PEDs.  He's also a whiney micro-manager that plays the game in a way that a lot of people don't enjoy watching, Celtics fan or otherwise.  The Jordan comparison is a silly one.  MJ was twice the competitor, had half the size/athletic gifts, and was 1.5x more talented.

Wait a second. You are saying Michael Jordan had "half the size/athletic gifts"?

Half?

Michael Jordan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UruofXufVuo

Exaggerated for effect, but prime LeBron is the superior athlete with an emphasis on size.  It's his historically elite size, when coupled with his nearly comparable agility, that makes him probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game.  We've never seen someone so physically dominant in the sport -- his most redeeming quality imo. 

Granted relative size/athleticism is sensitive to change over time, I think an argument could be made that Westbrook is more athletically gifted than prime MJ.  But Jordan was the best overall player due to his athleticism, talent, work ethic, and tenacity.  He had it all to the extent that he chose to walk away prematurely, when he no longer felt challenged by the game.  The competition among their two eras is subject for debate, but that holds true.

You're comparing an SF to an SG to a PG there, which I'm sure you know, so size is a relative thing. Jordan was pretty big for a shooting guard. Maybe not as powerful physically, but I don't know whether that's a useful criterion in the "greatest" discussion. It's certainly not a criticism. (Think Kareem vs. Wilt).

But just stepping back for a second, the statement is (or at least the one I raised above was), is Lebron "in the conversation." I think he is. He's certainly raised himself into that top tier with Bird, Russell, and the other guys who people will put forth as the greatest ever. At least in my opinion.

I respect that you think Jordan is the best (and I do too), and that his style was more enjoyable to watch (agree there too), but I don't think you can say it's a "silly" comparison any more.

[green_bballers13]

The Lebron haters are going to have to get use to this in the next coming years: Lebron will go down as a better NBA player. His finals appearances, cumulative stats, and maybe even championships will compete with/beat Jordan's numbers when it is all said and done.

If you were drafting Jordan or Lebron at 18, it's hard to make the case for MJ. And I loved watching Jordan do his thing.

[LilRip]

The Lebron haters are going to have to get use to this in the next coming years: Lebron will go down as a better NBA player. His finals appearances, cumulative stats, and maybe even championships will compete with/beat Jordan's numbers when it is all said and done.

If you were drafting Jordan or Lebron at 18, it's hard to make the case for MJ. And I loved watching Jordan do his thing.

It's hard to make the case for MJ??

[slightly biased bias fan]

Well, Mike did skip 4 seasons in his career.

yea... yawn. He has half as many titles and this will be his 12th full prime season which is how many full prime seasons Jordan played. The comparison is dead.

MJ is the GOAT, but he had way better supporting casts with the exception of the first Miami title.

All of LeBron's  titles have come on a team that had ten times the supporting cast that Jordan had. Sure, Jordan had Pippen, who was a great player but what else?! LeBron whined about not having enough talent on his team this year when he has Kyrie, Love, Thompson, Josh Smith.

The game has changed dramatically since Jordan's days, in the 90's it was slow paced iso ball so you didn't need the same supporting cast as now, that offence is actually now banned (clear out isolation on one side of the court). With the pace and space generation unless you have a strong supporting cast you can no longer compete period i.e Westbrook's OKC.

Plus you say Jordan's team wasn't that overall talented, Pippen was better than Kyrie and Love by some margin, Toni Kukoč (6th man of the year), Rodman > Thompson, Horace Grant (All-Star)...so the narrative of an overall weak supporting cast is wrong.

[ederson]

Exactly!
MJ had next to him great teams ... Great both in talent and in the way they fit to his game and talent.I can't say the same for James (possibly his fault though) and certainly not 10 time better....


And lets say that James do have better supporting cast..... Why is this a problem ? A guy called Russel played with 10-15 (even more) HOFs...... Is he not in the GOAT discussion?

[Somebody]

Exactly!
MJ had next to him great teams ... Great both in talent and in the way they fit to his game and talent.I can't say the same for James (possibly his fault though) and certainly not 10 time better....


And lets say that James do have better supporting cast..... Why is this a problem ? A guy called Russel played with 10-15 (even more) HOFs...... Is he not in the GOAT discussion?

Um the difference was Russell made half of those guys GOATS...not the same with LeBron and MJ

[Celtics4ever]

Exactly!
MJ had next to him great teams ... Great both in talent and in the way they fit to his game and talent

MJ embraced the big moments there have been times when LBJ did not or clearly quit on his team.  Some of you folks seem to conveniently forget those occurrences when you hype him up.   He is a great player but at least admit his faults.   I have to question is some of you seen Jordan in his prime.     LeBron James apologists is what many of you are.

MJ does not have tape out of there of him quitting, do a search on LeBron and you can find a tons of articles and videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5qIApQK0c

Even with these flaws he is a great player, but he does definite flaws.   I think he has improved a great deal in this regard but he can't run from his past nor can you rationalize it with flawed arguments ridden with hyperbole.

[Moranis]

Exactly!
MJ had next to him great teams ... Great both in talent and in the way they fit to his game and talent

MJ embraced the big moments there have been times when LBJ did not or clearly quit on his team.  Some of you folks seem to conveniently forget those occurrences when you hype him up.   He is a great player but at least admit his faults.   I have to question is some of you seen Jordan in his prime.     LeBron James apologists is what many of you are.

MJ does not have tape out of there of him quitting, do a search on LeBron and you can find a tons of articles and videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5qIApQK0c

Even with these flaws he is a great player, but he does definite flaws.   I think he has improved a great deal in this regard but he can't run from his past nor can you rationalize it with flawed arguments ridden with hyperbole.

Jordan had some pretty awful games when the Bulls were eliminated that people never seem to remember.  I mean in game 3 of 1987 playoffs against Boston, Jordan was 9 of 30.  He did get to the line 14 times (made 12) and ended up scoring 30 points, of course when you have 30 shots that is a lot easier.  Even the year before everyone talks about the 63 point game in game 2, but game 3 he scored just 19 points with 5 turnovers and fouled out of the game.  His first year in the playoffs the game the Bulls were eliminated in game 4, Jordan shot 37.5% (6 of 16) from the field (he got to the line a lot though and ended with 30).  Even after Pippen joined up, Jordan still had stretches where he wasn't aggressive and didn't score like Jordan normally did.  Take the 88 playoffs against the Pistons, he only averaged 24 ppg the last 3 games (all losses to the Pistons) and got to the line only 18 times combined in those 3 games including a 2 foul shot game.  The last two of those games he was under 60% from the line (well below his average).  The next year, the Bulls go up 2-1 on the Pistons, Jordan's play decreases and the Bulls lose the next 3, two of which were at home.  Game 4 in Chicago Jordan was 5 of 15 with just 23 points, game 5 back in Detroit, Jordan goes just 4 of 8 for 18 points, he shot much better in game 6 going 13 of 26, but had 8 turnovers and 5 fouls and the Bulls were eliminated at home.  The next year, Jordan generally played better against the Pistons, but in the 4 losses he shot under 50% (and was under 40% twice) while in the 3 wins, Jordan 50% or better in all 3.  Obviously the Bulls won or lost based on what Jordan did, but people always disregard Jordan's losses and only focus on the 6-0 in Finals. 

And obviously Jordan's poor games weren't quite as dramatic as some of James' poor games (there really is no excuse for James for game 4 against Dallas even with Wade and Bosh having great games in that one), but in the internet era, Jordan early on would have had a lot of the same type of things being said about James being said about him.  Can you imagine if James got swept 2 of the first 3 years he was in the playoffs and what would have been said about him especially with him having subpar performances in the closeout games like Jordan did?

[celticsclay]

Serious question. If Jordan was drafted out of high school and never quit to play baseball and didn't retire young, how many titles would he have won? 8-10? Hard to imagine you could make an argument less than 8. Jordans first 3 peat his second best teammate was Horace grant. I believe Horace grant was a 1 time all-star and was generally a high end role player. During Lebrons teams his third best teammate was a perennial all-star (bosh). Bosh was headed to the hall of fame before injuries ended his career. His other Miami title the 4th best player was ray Allen. Allen was similar to a player like tony k and was better than by Armstrong or some of the other 4th bananas.

Jordan's second three peat had better talent levels, especially when rodman was a force and those teams were similar talent levels to Lebrons cavs teams. That being said there is wat more ring chasing than there used to be and that works in Lebrons favor for the talent level on his team. Jordan never did have the luxury of adding a korver, deron Williams type to his team mid season each year (or a ray Allen for that matter). All that being said it really isn't that close and find it a bit perplexing people want to try to make the argument otherwise.

[celticsclay]

Exactly!
MJ had next to him great teams ... Great both in talent and in the way they fit to his game and talent

MJ embraced the big moments there have been times when LBJ did not or clearly quit on his team.  Some of you folks seem to conveniently forget those occurrences when you hype him up.   He is a great player but at least admit his faults.   I have to question is some of you seen Jordan in his prime.     LeBron James apologists is what many of you are.

MJ does not have tape out of there of him quitting, do a search on LeBron and you can find a tons of articles and videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5qIApQK0c

Even with these flaws he is a great player, but he does definite flaws.   I think he has improved a great deal in this regard but he can't run from his past nor can you rationalize it with flawed arguments ridden with hyperbole.

Jordan had some pretty awful games when the Bulls were eliminated that people never seem to remember.  I mean in game 3 of 1987 playoffs against Boston, Jordan was 9 of 30.  He did get to the line 14 times (made 12) and ended up scoring 30 points, of course when you have 30 shots that is a lot easier.  Even the year before everyone talks about the 63 point game in game 2, but game 3 he scored just 19 points with 5 turnovers and fouled out of the game.  His first year in the playoffs the game the Bulls were eliminated in game 4, Jordan shot 37.5% (6 of 16) from the field (he got to the line a lot though and ended with 30).  Even after Pippen joined up, Jordan still had stretches where he wasn't aggressive and didn't score like Jordan normally did.  Take the 88 playoffs against the Pistons, he only averaged 24 ppg the last 3 games (all losses to the Pistons) and got to the line only 18 times combined in those 3 games including a 2 foul shot game.  The last two of those games he was under 60% from the line (well below his average).  The next year, the Bulls go up 2-1 on the Pistons, Jordan's play decreases and the Bulls lose the next 3, two of which were at home.  Game 4 in Chicago Jordan was 5 of 15 with just 23 points, game 5 back in Detroit, Jordan goes just 4 of 8 for 18 points, he shot much better in game 6 going 13 of 26, but had 8 turnovers and 5 fouls and the Bulls were eliminated at home.  The next year, Jordan generally played better against the Pistons, but in the 4 losses he shot under 50% (and was under 40% twice) while in the 3 wins, Jordan 50% or better in all 3.  Obviously the Bulls won or lost based on what Jordan did, but people always disregard Jordan's losses and only focus on the 6-0 in Finals. 

And obviously Jordan's poor games weren't quite as dramatic as some of James' poor games (there really is no excuse for James for game 4 against Dallas even with Wade and Bosh having great games in that one), but in the internet era, Jordan early on would have had a lot of the same type of things being said about James being said about him.  Can you imagine if James got swept 2 of the first 3 years he was in the playoffs and what would have been said about him especially with him having subpar performances in the closeout games like Jordan did?

Moranis didn't those pistons teams have 3 hall of famers in their prime in rodman, Dumars and isiah Thomas? Plus some really elite role players? Look at who Lebron is playing to get to the finals this year and last. The raptors have two all stars, one of whom is 34 and constantly injured. You obviously can't act like the celtics have 3. Future hall of famers either. How many in their prime hall of famers are even in the east right now? John wall? Perhaps demar, George, butler and IT if they all keep their current level up for a number of years. It is certainly a down period for the conference and you can't count Lebrons finals trips and not acknowledge it is a historically weak period.

[sahara]

Serious question. If Jordan was drafted out of high school and never quit to play baseball and didn't retire young, how many titles would he have won? 8-10? Hard to imagine you could make an argument less than 8. Jordans first 3 peat his second best teammate was Horace grant. I believe Horace grant was a 1 time all-star and was generally a high end role player. During Lebrons teams his third best teammate was a perennial all-star (bosh). Bosh was headed to the hall of fame before injuries ended his career. His other Miami title the 4th best player was ray Allen. Allen was similar to a player like tony k and was better than by Armstrong or some of the other 4th bananas.

Jordan's second three peat had better talent levels, especially when rodman was a force and those teams were similar talent levels to Lebrons cavs teams. That being said there is wat more ring chasing than there used to be and that works in Lebrons favor for the talent level on his team. Jordan never did have the luxury of adding a korver, deron Williams type to his team mid season each year (or a ray Allen for that matter). All that being said it really isn't that close and find it a bit perplexing people want to try to make the argument otherwise.

[Big333223]

Serious question. If Jordan was drafted out of high school and never quit to play baseball and didn't retire young, how many titles would he have won? 8-10? Hard to imagine you could make an argument less than 8. Jordans first 3 peat his second best teammate was Horace grant. I believe Horace grant was a 1 time all-star and was generally a high end role player. During Lebrons teams his third best teammate was a perennial all-star (bosh). Bosh was headed to the hall of fame before injuries ended his career. His other Miami title the 4th best player was ray Allen. Allen was similar to a player like tony k and was better than by Armstrong or some of the other 4th bananas.

Jordan's second three peat had better talent levels, especially when rodman was a force and those teams were similar talent levels to Lebrons cavs teams. That being said there is wat more ring chasing than there used to be and that works in Lebrons favor for the talent level on his team. Jordan never did have the luxury of adding a korver, deron Williams type to his team mid season each year (or a ray Allen for that matter). All that being said it really isn't that close and find it a bit perplexing people want to try to make the argument otherwise.

I feel like it's the exact opposite. I'm not sure how you make the case for more than 6. There's certainly no reason to believe Jordan could/would have been able to lead a team to a championship at the age of 19 or 20. As for retiring young, he would've been 35 in the 1999 season. Pippen 33, Rodman 37 (and I think that relationship had pretty much run its course). Ron Harper also would've been 35. Kukoc would've still been excellent but how would that team have fared against the Spurs twin towers? After that it would've been Shaq and the Lakers, if a team that old would even make it to the Finals.

Everyone always just sort of concludes that Jordan would've won those 2 titles if he hadn't gone to play baseball but I don't see it. Maybe he would have. But maybe Jordan's intensity couldn't have stayed where it was if he didn't take these breaks. Maybe they wouldn't have been as good as that Houston team? Maybe the Knicks would have finally broken through anyway. It's possible the Bulls could've won more there but if they had, how might that have effected the second 3 peat?

Winning a championship is hard. Winning 6 is absolutely incredible. Assuming he would've just won more if he had stuck around, I think undersells just how difficult it was to accomplish what he did do.

[Eja117]

and be the all time leader in playoff points scored.  He is just 210 points behind after passing Kareem the other day for 2nd.  He is also 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals, and 7th in rebounds all time in the playoffs.  The accolades just keep on coming for James.  Hopefully Boston shuts him down and delays him passing Jordan till next year.

Accolades. A champion craves not these things