We aren't very good without Horford

[Surferdad]

Our best big man, yeah, he does mean a lot to the club. Also, no way IT scores 30 ppg without his signing, Crowder shoots 40 % from downtown, and forget about the 2nd seed. He was always a great signing, costing us nothing but cap space. He fitted immediately and his mental makeup fits with all good and ambitious players.

Remarkably, Horford has not been given enough love on this board lately.  All players go through a funk, plus he's been injured.  What is more subtle is the positive impact he has on the team in so many ways beyond filling the stat sheet.  Horford can bring the ball up like a guard, block shots and work the low post on offense when nothing else is working.

[Sketch5]

Not a shocker that a rebuilding team would need their most expensive player.

What shocks me is how Danny hasn't filled in some of the problems relating to defense/rebounding down low.

They should have gone after Bogut or someone similar (Tyson Chandler).

Never heard of a rebuilding 2nd seed but ok...

This team is over achieving, and some of the east is under achieving.Washingtion should be better than us,and we should be on par or slightly worse than Toronto, but Lowery has been hurt.

We are in year 4 of the rebuild, not long for a team thats only had one of their picks in the lottery and just got a top 3 pick last year. IT was a huge surprise, and Horford signing with us as well. No way DA is even close to being done. No way this team is even close to being a contender.

Two ways to stop the rebuild. This summer either trade or sign 2 of three of, Butler/PG13/Hayward/Griffen. Then add solid bench players around them.

OR

Keep the next two Nets picks, move IT and Horford for picks or young players, and then develop.

So yeah, a rebuilding 2nd seed, it's rare to see, like Bigfoot.  

[OhioGreen]

We aren't very good without Horford

[Vermont Green]

Horford is a nice player.  Perhaps overpaid some but nothing that is busting our cap space.  Yes, part of the issue is how bad his replacement is rather than how good he is but I think there is another factor.  Horford's shooting and passing forces defenses to play him honest which "spreads the floor" (a cliche I hate almost as much as "rim protector") and the spacing opens things up for the offense.  All the little things are connected and Horford does a lot of little things well enough.

So yeah, when he is out and we are on a west coast road trip, we are going to lose some games it seems we should win.  I still expect Horford will be traded after next season (when IT signs elsewhere and we double down on youth).

[Moranis]

Well yeah, but a lot of that is who is playing instead of Horford, especially with Amir and KO in foul trouble.

True, but look at our record without Horford, we completely collapse.

because we have no front court depth.  If you took Horford's 28 million and used it on 3 useful front court players that were all individually worse than Horford but in the same general skill range as Amir and KO (but maybe a defensive guy, a rebounder, and a jack of all trades guy), would the team be better or worse?  That has always been the issue I've had with the Horford signing.  He is a very strong all around player, but he isn't elite and by giving him all this money, Boston gave up a lot of flexibility both long and short term.

So you want to be last year's team?

plus Brown and whatever players were signed with Horford and Zeller money.

Here you go sign the "3 the useful frontcourt players" with the Horford and Zeller money. Keep in mind, though, that you also have to now factor in the length of those deals and future roster spots as it relates to Zizic, Yabu, Nader, our 2017 1st rd pick from the Nets, and any potential FA signings. Which of course we now don't have a roster spot for because of those 3 useful frontcourt players.

BRADLEY BEAL: 5 years, $128 million with Wizards
TIMOFEY MOZGOV: 4 years, $64 million with Lakers
DEMAR DEROZAN: 5 years, $145 million with Raptors
ANDRE DRUMMOND: 5 years, $130 million with Pistons
NICOLAS BATUM: 5 years, $120 million with Hornets
JORDAN CLARKSON: 4 years, $50 million with Lakers
HASSAN WHITESIDE: 4-years, $98 million with Heat
ISH SMITH: 3-year contract with Pistons
D.J. AUGUSTIN: 4-years, $29 million with Magic
JEREMY LIN: 3 years, $36 million with Nets
AL JEFFERSON: 3 years, $30 million with Pacers
JERRYD BAYLESS: 3 years, $27 million with 76ers
MIRZA TELETOVIC: 3 years, $30 million with Bucks
CHANDLER PARSONS: 4 years, $94 million with Grizzlies
EVAN TURNER: 4 years, $70 million with Blazers
EVAN FOURNIER: 5 years, $85 million with Magic
MATTHEW DELLAVEDOVA: 4 years, $38 million with Bucks (Cavs can match)
SOLOMON HILL: 4 years, $48 million with Pelicans
JEFF GREEN: 1 year, $15 million with Magic
DARRELL ARTHUR: 3 years, $23 million with Nuggets
DWIGHT HOWARD: 3 years, $70 million with Hawks
MIKE CONLEY: 5 years, $153 million with Grizzlies
JUSTIN HAMILTON: 2 years, $6 million with Nets
JARED DUDLEY: 3 years, $30 million with Suns
E'TWAUN MOORE: 4 years, $34 million with Pelicans
JOAKIM NOAH: 4 years, $72 million with Knicks
KENT BAZEMORE: 4 years, $70 million with Hawks
JOE JOHNSON: 2 years, $22 million with Jazz
LUOL DENG: 4 years, $72 million with Lakers
JON LEUER: 4 years, $42 million with Pistons
ARRON AFFLALO: 2 years, $25 million with Kings
BISMACK BIYOMBO: 4 years, $72 million with Magic
TREVOR BOOKER: 2 years, $18.5 million with Nets
RYAN ANDERSON: 4 years, $80 million with Rockets
MARVIN WILLIAMS: 4 years, $54.5 million with Hornets
ANTHONY TOLLIVER: 2 years, $16 million with Kings
AL HORFORD: 4 years, $113 million with the Celtics
COURTNEY LEE: 4 years, $50 million with the Knicks
IAN MAHINMI: 4 years, $64 million with the Wizards
AUSTIN RIVERS: 3 years, $35 million with the Clippers
ERIC GORDON: 4 years, $53 million with the Rockets
WESLEY JOHNSON: 3 years, $18 million with the Clippers
JAMES ENNIS: 2 years, $6 million with Grizzlies
ANDREW NICHOLSON: 4 years, $26 million with Wizards
TYLER JOHNSON: 4 years, $50 million with Nets, Heat match
COLE ALDRICH: 3 years, $22 million with Timberwolves
GARRETT TEMPLE: 3 years, $24 million with Kings
TOMAS SATORANSKY: 3 years, $9 million with Wizards
JAMAL CRAWFORD: 3 years, $42 million with Clippers
RAJON RONDO: 2 years, $28 million with Bulls
MALCOLM DELANEY: 2 years with Hawks
MATT BARNES: 2 years, $12 million with Kings
DWIGHT POWELL: 4 years, $37 million with Mavericks
DERON WILLIAMS: 1 year, $10 million with Mavericks
TARIK BLACK: 2 years, $12.5 million with Lakers
RAMON SESSIONS: 2 years, $12.5 million with Hornets
SHAUN LIVINGSTON: 1 year, $5.8 million option picked up by Warriors
SERGIO RODRIGUEZ: 1 year, $8 million with 76ers
HARRISON BARNES: 4 years, $94 million with Mavericks
PAU GASOL: 2 years, $30+ million with Spurs
BRANDON JENNINGS: 1 year, $5 million with Knicks
LUC RICHARD MBAH A MOUTE: 2 years, $4.5 million with Clippers
ZAZA PACHULIA: 1 year, $2.9 million with Warriors
ROY HIBBERT: 1 year, $5 million with Hornets
LANCE THOMAS: 4 years, $27 million with Knicks
SETH CURRY: 2 years, $6 million with Mavericks
DIRK NOWITZKI: 2 years, $50 million with Mavericks
GERALD HENDERSON: 2 years, $18 million with 76ers
DAVID WEST: 1 year, $1.55 million vs. Warriors
MINDAUGAS KUZMINSKAS: 2 years, $6 million with Knicks
WILLY HERNANGOMEZ: TBD with Knicks
JASON SMITH: 3 years, $16 million with Wizards
NENE: 1 year, $2.9 million with Rockets
BRANDON RUSH: 1 year, $3.5 million with Timberwolves
BRIAN ROBERTS: 1 year, $1.05 million with Hornets
LANGSTON GALLOWAY: 2 years, $10-12 million with Pelicans
RICHARD JEFFERSON: 2 years, $5 million with Cavaliers
LEANDRO BARBOSA: 2 years, $8 million with Suns
BOBAN MARJANOVIC: 3 years, $21 million with Pistons
DEWAYNE DEDMON: 2 years $6 million with Spurs
MANU GINOBILI: 1 year, $14 million with Spurs
MARCELO HUERTAS: 2 years with the Lakers
AMIR JOHNSON: Celtics picked up player option
IAN CLARK: 1 year deal with the Warriors
FESTUS EZELI: 2 years, $15 million with the Trail Blazers
ALLEN CRABBE: 4 years, $75 million with Nets, Trail Blazers match
MARREESE SPEIGHTS: Minimum contract with the Clippers
TROY DANIELS: 3 years, $10 million with the Grizzlies
DERRICK WILLIAMS: 1 year, $5 million with Heat
TIM FRAZIER: 2 years, $4 million with Pelicans
WAYNE ELLINGTON: 2 years, $12 million with Heat
MARCUS THORNTON: 1 year, minimum with Wizards
JAMES MCADOO: 1 year, minimum with Warriors
JAMES JOHNSON: 1 year, $4 million with Heat
MEYERS LEONARD: 4 years, $41 million with Blazers
WILLIE REED: 2 years, minimum with Heat
JARRETT JACK: 1 year, minimum with Hawks
UDONIS HASLEM: 1 year, $4 million with Heat
GREIVIS VASQUEZ: 1 year, $5 million with the Nets
JARED SULLINGER: 1 year, $6 million with Raptors
KRIS HUMPHRIES: 1 year, $4 million with Hawks
SASHA VUJACIC: 1 year, minimum with Knicks
LUIS SCOLA: 1 year with Nets
CHRISTIAN WOOD: 2 years with Hornets
JONATHAN GIBSON: 3 years with Mavericks
PABLO PRIGIONI: 2 years, minimum with Rockets
JOE HARRIS: 2 years, $2 million with the Nets
MAURICE NDOUR: 2 years with the Knicks
ANTHONY BENNETT: 2 years, minimum with the Nets
RANDY FOYE: 1 year with the Nets
MANU GINOBILI: 1 year, $14 million with the Spurs
QUINCY ACY: 2 years, minimum with the Mavericks
RAYMOND FELTON: 1 year, minimum with the Clippers
TERRENCE JONES: 1 year, likely minimum with the Pelicans
DAVIS BERTANS: 2 years, $4 million with the Spurs
CHRIS ANDERSEN: 1 year, minimum with the Cavaliers
BRANDON BASS: 1 year, minimum with the Clippers
JORDAN HILL: 2 years, $8 million with Wolves
ANDERSON VAREJAO: 1 year, minimum with Warriors
ALEX ABRINES: 3 years, $18 million with Thunder
MILES PLUMLEE: 4 years, $52 million with Bucks
AARON BROOKS: 1 year, $2.5 million with Pacers
MIKE MILLER: 2 years, $5 million with Nuggets
GERALD GREEN: 1 year, $1.4 million with Celtics
TYLER ZELLER: 2 years, $16 million with Celtics
ALONZO GEE: 1 year, minimum with Pelicans
NICOLAS BRUSSINO: 3 years, minimum with Mavericks
DION WAITERS: 1 year, $2.9 million with Heat
MAURICE HARKLESS: 4 years, $40 million with Blazers
DAVID LEE: 2 years, $3.2 million with Spurs
KEVIN SERAPHIN: 2 years, $3.6 million with Pacers

Of the realistic players, Sullinger, Speights, Seraphin, Dedmon, and Humphries or some combination thereof would have made for an interesting front court.  A lot more depth, a lot more rebounding, but obviously less passing and scoring than Horford/Zeller.  I think Pau Gasol would have been a great fit, but I'm not sure he would have been realistic.  Terrence Jones would have made some sense as well. 

Of course we are talking about just for this year, Boston would have then entered this coming summer with room for two max contracts, or could have been active at the deadline and taken on future salary and still had room for 1 max contract.  Maybe Boston pulls the trigger on Noel or goes after someone like Chandler in that scenario since acquiring either would have still allowed Boston to have room for a full max this summer. 

Horford is obviously a better player than those people, but he is your classic #2/3 type player and this team without Durant, didn't need a guy on the wrong side of 30 signed for a full 4 year max deal that isn't even a superstar let alone franchise player.  His signing made no sense at all once Durant chose the Warriors and it might not have affected this years team, but his contract will be problematic in the future.  I'd have rather just run it back or signed guys like above and tried again this summer or at the deadline, especially since you always have the fall back option of the BKN picks. 

[Ed Hollison]

Forget his salary. Horford is a good player and our best big. Just as I'll say in the case of Marcus Smart, you need players like this to win a championship.

[Moranis]

Forget his salary. Horford is a good player and our best big. Just as I'll say in the case of Marcus Smart, you need players like this to win a championship.

No you need franchise players to win championships.

[SHAQATTACK]

I recall,the huge difference Prince made on the Celtics team.  He was no a huge scorer , but he had a incredible calming effect on the court .  When Prince was in the game the team played smart ,passing was always crisp ,  looking for the right guy.   Horford is much like Prince .   Guys seem to act more serious and not play individual ball.

Prince could have easily been one of my favorite Celtics of all time , if Danny had kept him or he d been on the team much earlier .  He played the correct way .

[Chris22]

It's a shame we didn't keep Yabusele here.
I really think he could of helped.

[Csfan1984]

We aren't very good without Horford

Tp. I'd say C's are above average to good. Not "very good". But Im sure he meant the team's play isn't very good without Horford.

[Evantime34]

I'm not happy the C's are playing like this, but I do like that having Al out sheds some light on his value to the team. His screen setting, spacing and ability to create quality shots for others with his passing is an overlooked driver to our offense.

After all the talk of him being overpaid, I'm glad to see posts like this.

If we hadn't signed him this summer, I would have had to read about how Boston has never signed a good free agent during this entire season. Somehow, we have went from "Free agents don't want to come to Boston" to "we could have signed better free agents than Al Horford". I don't think you will see much max player movement in free agency this summer, so the idea that we would be better off with the cap space is insane to me.

[Androslav]

Forget his salary. Horford is a good player and our best big. Just as I'll say in the case of Marcus Smart, you need players like this to win a championship.

No you need franchise players to win championships.

That is a very B&W POV Moranis.
Just check out this list:
PG13
Jimmy
AD
Towns
Westbrook
All are generaly regarded as franshise players and they have 0% to win the title this year. Big maybe to win a round beetween all of them. If they all stay put, probably next year too. Team building is much more demanding than a franchise player search. Those players would already know, but would still ask in advance: "You have no above average bigmen?" If Horford wasn't here.

[mysteryMrE]

Forget his salary. Horford is a good player and our best big. Just as I'll say in the case of Marcus Smart, you need players like this to win a championship.

No you need franchise players to win championships.

You need players like Al and Isaiah to get franchise players to want to come here.

[Diggles]

Not a shocker that a rebuilding team would need their most expensive player.

What shocks me is how Danny hasn't filled in some of the problems relating to defense/rebounding down low.

They should have gone after Bogut or someone similar (Tyson Chandler).

Maybe they did, and the asking price was too much.   No one knows.   Maybe they pulled a Cavs and hoped we would sign him.   Maybe we dodged a bullet with Bougut.   Maybe, maybe maybe... LOl.   

Wish we had the hype of a rebounding big on our team too, but I don't blame one person for this until I know the facts.   

[mctyson]

Not a shocker that a rebuilding team would need their most expensive player.

What shocks me is how Danny hasn't filled in some of the problems relating to defense/rebounding down low.

They should have gone after Bogut or someone similar (Tyson Chandler).

Never heard of a rebuilding 2nd seed but ok...

This team is over achieving, and some of the east is under achieving.Washingtion should be better than us,and we should be on par or slightly worse than Toronto, but Lowery has been hurt.

We are in year 4 of the rebuild, not long for a team thats only had one of their picks in the lottery and just got a top 3 pick last year. IT was a huge surprise, and Horford signing with us as well. No way DA is even close to being done. No way this team is even close to being a contender.

Two ways to stop the rebuild. This summer either trade or sign 2 of three of, Butler/PG13/Hayward/Griffen. Then add solid bench players around them.

OR

Keep the next two Nets picks, move IT and Horford for picks or young players, and then develop.

So yeah, a rebuilding 2nd seed, it's rare to see, like Bigfoot.

I would actually argue we are in year 3 of building a team.  In year 1 we were building a tank.