IT Complaints: Fallout & Future (merged IT kvetching threads)

[RJ87]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

[Chris22]

Without Al Horford, this team is a lottery team.

[mctyson]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

I love how NONE OF THIS opinion existed after they beat Cleveland last week.

[RJ87]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

I love how NONE OF THIS opinion existed after they beat Cleveland last week.

My own quote from February 28th (pre-Cleveland win) in a game thread:

No, we're probably not a playoff team without Isaiah, but where would he be without the Celtics?

He's gotten to this point not only due to his talent but also due to this offense and playing within this system. He's been playing selfishly and it's hurt the team at times. He has to get back to playing more team-oriented ball.

This is an opinion I've had for awhile.

[mctyson]

But, again, what was Stevens supposed to do?

I am guessing that IT would say "play the starters more, mainly me."  I think he is sick of seeing guys like Lowry and Westbrook get the opportunity for 40+ minute games versus him being on a strict schedule.

I do not fault IT for want to play the whole game in order to win, and I don't fault Stevens for not folding and sticking to a limit on the amount he will play IT in a regular season game.

Amir can only reliably play like 20 minutes a game anymore;

I think he can play more than that and will in the playoffs.  Stevens is being smart and not driving the guy into the ground.

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable.

As I said earlier - where was this opinion after they beat Cleveland last week?

[jpotter33]

Imo the team should suspend IT4 a game....

If not CBS control/respect from the team may start slipping

Most likely IF Stevens has a problem he will talk to him in private, like he did earlier in the year.

when was this?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18842098/isaiah-thomas-sounds-boston-celtics-blow-second-straight-double-digit-lead

This is hardly the first time Thomas has quibbled about rotations or minutes. He sounded off back in November after a loss to visiting Golden State in which Stevens pulled him early in the fourth quarter as the Warriors pulled away. Thomas and Stevens talked on the phone that night, and Thomas responded by emerging as maybe the best fourth-quarter scorer in league history since then.

Yeah, but I see that as a problem. This is actually like the third time IT has called out Brad and/or his rotations to the media, but only one of the other times got serious pushback.

I don't think a star as flawed as IT has any justification for calling out the coach (not that I'm sure any star really does - I think the coach is off limits to the media), especially when he's directly responsible for our loss in Phoenix.

That's absurd.

IT missed a FT that by itself would have meant nothing if all other events unfolded the same.  And he was on the receiving end of the pass from Jae that Chriss got a hand in which lead to the winning tre by Ulis.   Whether that mess up was IT's fault or Jae's (HE's the only one who should have seen Chriss coming in from behind Isaiah) or both is debatable.

But to suggest that Isaiah was 'directly responsible' for the loss ignores the TEN FREE THROWS that Jae, Jaylen, Jonas and Marcus combined to miss in that game.

Those four guys combined to shoot 63% from the line, clanking rim after rim.

If they make just a few of those ten misses drop in, we win the game easy.

Isaiah made 10 of his 11 FTAs.

That's just simply untrue. No loss can ever really be boiled down to one simple play or even a few, but if any loss ever could, it would be this one.

People blaming Crowder for that pass are straight up out of their mind and are seeing things wrongly. IT was trying to not take time off the clock by letting it roll up the court, which was the absolute wrong thing to do in that situation. You only do that in that situation if the defense allows it, but why in the hell would the defense allow it in that situation? It was a tied game with just 4 seconds to go, so of course they're going to pressure it and try to steal it. That's just a brain fart on IT's part.

And Crowder recognized this, which is why he threw the ball to IT expecting him to catch it and not let it roll. But IT had the brain fart and tried to not touch it and let it roll to save time, which is absolutely inadvisable and the wrong thing to do in that situation with defensive traffic all around him, and when he did it he bobbled the pass at the last second and it hit off his leg leading to the Chriss steal, not Chriss stealing it on his own like you said. Look in the video below from :18 - :21. This is clearly how it happened. IT bobbled it and it went off of his leg first by him trying to let it roll and changing his mind at the last second, not Chriss getting a hand in there first. This is clearly a brainfart on IT's part:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cgu3Br--G4

And I don't blame IT for missing that free throw. Like you said, he was 10/11. Similarly, you can't really blame Smart going 9-12 either, which is pretty acceptable, though Brown certainly gets some blame going 5-10. But that being said - if IT makes that free throw, then he never tries to let that ball roll. He simply catches it, gets fouled, and goes to the line for two more free throws. But since he missed that free throw, it led him to make that brain fart by trying to do an inadvisable basketball play in traffic, which led to a turnover.

And this is not even getting into the fact that he was forcing numerous possessions and played terrible, dumb basketball all in the first half. So, yes, contrary to your argument, this loss was totally on IT due to a brainfart at the end of the game.

And that's no big deal; it happens to every star. But the fact that he passed blame onto Crowder shows how little he really is. This guy isn't the leader we need.

[mctyson]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

I love how NONE OF THIS opinion existed after they beat Cleveland last week.

My own quote from February 28th (pre-Cleveland win) in a game thread:

No, we're probably not a playoff team without Isaiah, but where would he be without the Celtics?

He's gotten to this point not only due to his talent but also due to this offense and playing within this system. He's been playing selfishly and it's hurt the team at times. He has to get back to playing more team-oriented ball.

This is an opinion I've had for awhile.

Please re-read my statement.  Where was this insight after they beat Cleveland.  Like, right after.  I bet you were silent.

[Monkhouse]

But, again, what was Stevens supposed to do?

I am guessing that IT would say "play the starters more, mainly me."  I think he is sick of seeing guys like Lowry and Westbrook get the opportunity for 40+ minute games versus him being on a strict schedule.

I do not fault IT for want to play the whole game in order to win, and I don't fault Stevens for not folding and sticking to a limit on the amount he will play IT in a regular season game.

Amir can only reliably play like 20 minutes a game anymore;

I think he can play more than that and will in the playoffs.  Stevens is being smart and not driving the guy into the ground.

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable.

As I said earlier - where was this opinion after they beat Cleveland last week?

Number one way of getting injured before the playoffs. 

[jpotter33]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

Completely agree with all of that. TP.

[jpotter33]

But, again, what was Stevens supposed to do?

I am guessing that IT would say "play the starters more, mainly me."  I think he is sick of seeing guys like Lowry and Westbrook get the opportunity for 40+ minute games versus him being on a strict schedule.

I do not fault IT for want to play the whole game in order to win, and I don't fault Stevens for not folding and sticking to a limit on the amount he will play IT in a regular season game.

Amir can only reliably play like 20 minutes a game anymore;

I think he can play more than that and will in the playoffs.  Stevens is being smart and not driving the guy into the ground.

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable.

As I said earlier - where was this opinion after they beat Cleveland last week?

You obviously haven't been reading my posts, because I've been an ardent critic of Danny standing pat at the deadline, not for PG and Butler, but for those other, more incremental upgrades like Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc. And that's actually been a very popular opinion on here since the trade deadline, so I don't know where you're going with this argument.

[RJ87]

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable. You must either use some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team now to give it a legit shot of competing (i.e. Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc.), while keeping our core assets together, or just simply build towards the freaking future. You're essentially handicapping our current team and creating chemistry and rotation problems by not giving them the help they so clearly need. And this is what it leads to - a frustrated, primadonna pint-sized star blaming everyone else on the team other than himself for our recent losses.

I agree with this 100%. Danny touted our chemistry as the reason he didn't make smaller moves or try to bring in buyout guys, but chemistry is such a fickle thing. By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

As to your other point about IT's attitude, it's not really new. People like to point the finger at Sacramento and Phoenix's front offices for why IT didn't flourish at those respective teams, but it takes two to tango - he didn't show an ounce of leadership at either of those stops. A lot of people are quick to credit him with the C's quick rebuild, but I also don't think he's an All-Star if he doesn't end up in Boston with Brad Stevens. Idk if he's a longterm guy here - I guess it depends on what pieces we add. I just wish he'd stop buying into his own hype and get back to a more team oriented approach. It's best for him and the team when he's not trying to force it.

I love how NONE OF THIS opinion existed after they beat Cleveland last week.

My own quote from February 28th (pre-Cleveland win) in a game thread:

No, we're probably not a playoff team without Isaiah, but where would he be without the Celtics?

He's gotten to this point not only due to his talent but also due to this offense and playing within this system. He's been playing selfishly and it's hurt the team at times. He has to get back to playing more team-oriented ball.

This is an opinion I've had for awhile.

Please re-read my statement.  Where was this insight after they beat Cleveland.  Like, right after.  I bet you were silent.

Funny enough, me and Jpotter33 in the game thread that night:

"Don't force it," they said.

Huh? Those last two plays just proved my point many of us have been saying all along - don't force it up at the rim. Kick it out on penetration.

How the hell did IT get this cult-like following on here where you can't even criticize the guy for a bad play without being wrong?

I can't give you a TP for an hour, but I owe you one for this.

[mctyson]

But, again, what was Stevens supposed to do?

I am guessing that IT would say "play the starters more, mainly me."  I think he is sick of seeing guys like Lowry and Westbrook get the opportunity for 40+ minute games versus him being on a strict schedule.

I do not fault IT for want to play the whole game in order to win, and I don't fault Stevens for not folding and sticking to a limit on the amount he will play IT in a regular season game.

Amir can only reliably play like 20 minutes a game anymore;

I think he can play more than that and will in the playoffs.  Stevens is being smart and not driving the guy into the ground.

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable.

As I said earlier - where was this opinion after they beat Cleveland last week?

Number one way of getting injured before the playoffs. 

Exactly...that's why Stevens takes him out on a regular schedule, not matter the opponent or lead/deficit.

And naturally, players get upset about that.  Remember when Smart flipped out during the Washington game?  Oh but we all loved that...and he showed up the coaches to their face during the game!

This whole board has gone sideways.

[mctyson]

By not making those moves and showing our older guys that we are committing to really competing right now, it made end up blowing up our chemistry anyway.

You said that above.  Where was your statement during the Cavs game about the Celtics' chemistry getting blown up? 

I will wait for that one versus game-play comments about forcing shots at the rim.

[Monkhouse]

We should be allowed to be able to discuss and speak our minds.

Yes, Thomas is a great scorer, but you cannot deny he's a liability on defense. But he does play heart, and definitely has been consistent this year.

But he isn't without his warts, and flaws, just like any other player. Durant, is a perfect example victim of this, being an MVP, and getting scolded by Green for being selfish that GSW vs MEM game.

I love IT. I want him here. But I also want him to step it up, and be a leader.

He's never been asked to do that. He was the point guard on a surprisingly, but terrible Sacramento Kings that had 3 players averaging 20 points each. So I always expected him to do pretty well, but never at this elite level.

But you MUST FORCE YOURSELF TO BE A LEADER! As the face of the franchise, I don't mind the fact HE spoke his mind. Players are emotional, but you gotta also realize this is their life, they live and die for this, (well some do, and some don't unfortunately..).

That being said, I do wish Ainge had made a feasible, but affordable small trade for a vet/big that could've been useful for us. I admit I wanted Bogut, but clearly wrong on that part. 

Wish Jones would've picked us, and Sullinger may be a option.

We need someone that can at least play somewhat competent minutes. Its been clear from the jump, our young bigs aren't up for the task, or need some more time to develop.

[Sketch5]

But, again, what was Stevens supposed to do?

I am guessing that IT would say "play the starters more, mainly me."  I think he is sick of seeing guys like Lowry and Westbrook get the opportunity for 40+ minute games versus him being on a strict schedule.

I do not fault IT for want to play the whole game in order to win, and I don't fault Stevens for not folding and sticking to a limit on the amount he will play IT in a regular season game.

Amir can only reliably play like 20 minutes a game anymore;

I think he can play more than that and will in the playoffs.  Stevens is being smart and not driving the guy into the ground.

Ultimately, the real blame here is not to be put on Stevens; the real blame is to be put on Danny. By failing to upgrade the roster in any way at the deadline, he has brought all of this controversy on this team. This BS approach of trying to compete now while building for the future just simply isn't sustainable.

As I said earlier - where was this opinion after they beat Cleveland last week?

You obviously haven't been reading my posts, because I've been an ardent critic of Danny standing pat at the deadline, not for PG and Butler, but for those other, more incremental upgrades like Ibaka, Tucker, Noel, etc. And that's actually been a very popular opinion on here since the trade deadline, so I don't know where you're going with this argument.

But didn't they go to the final hour/half hour trying to get a deal for PG13 or Butler, or what was rumored Both, how do you make a small move an hour or half hour before the deadline?  Noel and Ibaka went WAY before the deadline, and Tucker right at the deadline. Who knows if they wanted more from DA than they got, but DA wasn't going to toss in anything for smaller moves while he was fishing for something bigger. And he isn't going to trade for some one he wont resign in the off season.

It was PG13,Butler or nothing. Ibaka and Tucker makes us slightly better, but not coast threw the second round or beat Cleveland better. So why make moves for the sake of making moves, and he's not going to bend over backwards to make IT happy while messing up the teams future. He's gone after KD by signing Horford, and went after PG13 and Butler. He can't make other teams trade.

And no we couldn't have had Cousins for peanuts. They would have asked for more, and SAC choked by taking the deal so early, the other teams bluffed and they lost. Plus last time I had checked NO was 1-5 since he came on board, and that one win was with out him. Small sample size, but its saying something.

The real deals will be made this summer if there are any to make.