Convince Me Butler Gets Us Past Cleveland...

[PAOBoston]

Butler is a step in the right direction. I don't really understand the "Will player X get us past CLE" argument. Outside of LeBron, there really isn't another player who will single handedly make a team like the C's instant contenders.

Butler is a great fit for the C's. He's versatile, a great defender, can create his own shot, and has that hard nosed, never been handed anything to me attitude that we laud IT4 for. He's the type of player that pushes them to legit ECF contenders. He's a talent upgrade on the roster and he gives a legit size in the backcourt next to IT4.

It would be a step in a series of steps the C's have already taken.

Cousins would have gotten Boston a lot closer than any other player potentially available, especially when the price would have likely been Brown plus future picks.  Cleveland has no answer for Cousins.  It would have given Boston a decided edge at a position on the court, something no other available player would have done.

Well, that is pretty subjective. You don't really know how that would play out. We have no idea how Cousins would fit on this team.  I see both Cousins and Butler as steps in the right direction (talent wise) if they came to the C's. I don't think either of them alone gets them past CLE. To say it would have gotten them closer is a stretch IMO.

[__ramonezy__]

On paper he gives us the requisite "next star" that book of law says you need to be a contender...

But in my opinion we don't need another "star"... we don't need another 20ppg scorer (BTW AB was averaging 18ppg before the injury) and Butler's traits on defense may be special on other teams but on the Celtics with AB, Smart, Brown and Crowder, I'm not even sure if he would be a top 3 defender on our team.

What we need is simple, a rim-protecting, rebounding big that can switch from 1 - 5. We don't need more offense, which is what "stars" are normally denoted by... which is why Carmelo is a "star". So I would prefer Noel on this team more than Butler, especially if AB comes back in pre-injury form

[Chief]

Not after watching LeBron win the unofficial dunk contest during the ALL Star game. 

Butler gets us past the,Raptors .

Not LeBron ....he still has the tools ....SMH

Yeah, it would take Butler and Noel to have a chance.

[Ilikesports17]

i believe in the term "overrated star". Meaning some player is putting great stats and is considered a star but he doesn't help his team win. Best example of that is Carmelo Anthony. One of the best scoring talents of this generation and he never make his team great.

Similar case with Butler. Bulls don't have too bad roster but he is struggling to get his team in the playoff. He might not be in the playoffs second year in a row, on a weak east conference.

In the past the term stars was used for players who made their teams great. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Nowitzki, Iverson..... 

Iverson got 76ers to the finals with terrible supporting cast
KG got Minnesota in the playoffs in the strong west for 8 years in a row with bad supporting cast.

Today's stars are overrated i believe, not all of them but most of them. Lebron, Durant, Leonard are not overrated but "stars" like Butler are

Im not sure you understand how bad the Bulls are without Jimmy Butler. His on/off differential might be the best in the league. I know it is better than Westbrook, giannis, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, James Harden, Isaiah thomas, and Joel Embiid. Its better than Durant's last season and better than paul pierce ever did.

When Jimmy Butler is off the floor, the bulls are worse than the Nets by a decent margin.

If you think he is a cancer to the team etc etc that is one thing(which Id counter with rave reviews from Thibs, Gasol, and Wade) but if you think he doesnt help the team when he IS on the floor... thats completely wrong.

[boscel33]

He doesn't which is why you stay the course and then surpass them in a couple of years with the East's version of the Warriors.

[mctyson]

I cant

I can't either, because I don't think he is a enough of an upgrade over Bradley to cover our huge weakness on the defensive glass.

[LilRip]

Imo, it puts us on the level of Cleveland. Offensively, he takes pressure off of IT and he's a threat to be double teamed. Btw I don't know why people have this notion that he can't shoot when the dude consistently drills threes. Defensively, he's a beast and is one of the best in the league in covering Lebron. Coach Nick of Bballbreakdown had him ranked ahead of guys like Kawhi and PG in defending Lebron (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_3qOcixiI).

On top of that, outside of the recent outburst with Wade, id say he's a team player and is definitely a hard worker. He fits culture-wise. Plus, doesn't hurt that Butler has grown enough rep to get "star calls" from the refs.

[BadNewsBarnes]

Yeah, it would take Butler and Noel to have a chance.

This is where I am.  We don't have a chance to get by Cleveland by adding Butler.  Adding Butler AND Noel - maybe we have a shot.  But what does our roster look like if we could add both of them.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Butler is a step in the right direction. I don't really understand the "Will player X get us past CLE" argument. Outside of LeBron, there really isn't another player who will single handedly make a team like the C's instant contenders.

Butler is a great fit for the C's. He's versatile, a great defender, can create his own shot, and has that hard nosed, never been handed anything to me attitude that we laud IT4 for. He's the type of player that pushes them to legit ECF contenders. He's a talent upgrade on the roster and he gives a legit size in the backcourt next to IT4.

It would be a step in a series of steps the C's have already taken.

Cousins would have gotten Boston a lot closer than any other player potentially available, especially when the price would have likely been Brown plus future picks.  Cleveland has no answer for Cousins.  It would have given Boston a decided edge at a position on the court, something no other available player would have done.

I think Cousins was the only available player for whom neither Cleveland nor GS has an answer.

I understand the skepticism about Cousins. I just hope this "bank on landing the No. 1 pick this year and that player actually becoming a star, then landing a top-2 pick next year and him actually becoming a star, and Jaylen Brown will become a star" plan actually pans out.

As you can tell, I'm feeling a bit cynical at the moment.

[mctyson]

Yeah, it would take Butler and Noel to have a chance.

This is where I am.  We don't have a chance to get by Cleveland by adding Butler.  Adding Butler AND Noel - maybe we have a shot.  But what does our roster look like if we could add both of them.

If this is what you think we need then 2016/2017 is not the year.

It would be better to trade for Butler around draft day and sign Noel this offseason.  Philly will not match.

[Phantom255x]

I cant

I can't either, because I don't think he is a enough of an upgrade over Bradley to cover our huge weakness on the defensive glass.

Plus if they want Crowder... Same thing, not a huge improvement at the end.

And it's Bradley/Smart included too in the package.

[oldtype]

Upgrade from Crowder to Butler probably isn't even much of an upgrade if we continue to play the way we are right now.  Butler needs the ball in his hands, while Crowder thrives without it.  It'll be nice to have a second option when IT can't get it done, but in the mean time Butler is shooting sub-35% from three compared to Crowder's 40%+.

Trading for Butler is just a bad idea in general.  If we give away the majority of our assets for Butler, that's our team.  No more cap space, no more assets.  That team may beat Cleveland but it certainly won't beat Golden State.  If we're going to win now, we need to shoot for the moon by signing an FA and THEN trading for Butler or George or whoever.

[PhoSita]

There probably isn't a "move" that gets us past Cleveland without some injury luck, apart from waiting for LeBron to start declining, which probably won't happen for another few years.

Acquiring a guy like Butler puts the Celts in position to meet the Cavs in the ECF, however, and once there, who knows what might happen.

When you don't have a generational talent, that's all you can do. Be in position for multiple years and hope one of those times it all comes together.

[Moranis]

Butler is a step in the right direction. I don't really understand the "Will player X get us past CLE" argument. Outside of LeBron, there really isn't another player who will single handedly make a team like the C's instant contenders.

Butler is a great fit for the C's. He's versatile, a great defender, can create his own shot, and has that hard nosed, never been handed anything to me attitude that we laud IT4 for. He's the type of player that pushes them to legit ECF contenders. He's a talent upgrade on the roster and he gives a legit size in the backcourt next to IT4.

It would be a step in a series of steps the C's have already taken.

Cousins would have gotten Boston a lot closer than any other player potentially available, especially when the price would have likely been Brown plus future picks.  Cleveland has no answer for Cousins.  It would have given Boston a decided edge at a position on the court, something no other available player would have done.

Well, that is pretty subjective. You don't really know how that would play out. We have no idea how Cousins would fit on this team.  I see both Cousins and Butler as steps in the right direction (talent wise) if they came to the C's. I don't think either of them alone gets them past CLE. To say it would have gotten them closer is a stretch IMO.

It is somewhat subjective but is absolutely based on objective factors.  Butler and/or George would be guarded by Lebron James and forced to guard Lebron James.  The Cavs still have the edge in that scenario.  The Cavs have 3 "big men" on their roster they are Tristan Thompson, Kevin Love, and Channing Frye.  Demarcus Cousins wins all 3 of those matchups and wins two of them significantly every single time.  None of those 3 can guard Cousins and only Love poses difficulty for Cousins to guard.  Having Cousins also pushes Horford to PF and thus forces Love to play on both ends of the floor, thus diminishing his effectiveness.  Thompson and Love can't guard Cousins and Horford, which gives Boston a real decided advantage and one that is significant enough that it might actually affect the outcome of a playoff series.  Butler or George certainly make Boston a better team and get Boston closer to Cleveland in a playoff series, but they don't provide a matchup advantage that could potentially alter the outcome of that playoff series.  Cousins could have done that, which is why when the price fell to what it did, Boston should have taken the chance on him even with no guarantees he remains past the 2017/18 season.  Cousins also would have been the only spot in which Boston would have had an advantage against the Warriors as well, and thus would have given Boston at least a chance in that series had it gotten by Cleveland.

[CoachBo]

There probably isn't a "move" that gets us past Cleveland without some injury luck, apart from waiting for LeBron to start declining, which probably won't happen for another few years.

Acquiring a guy like Butler puts the Celts in position to meet the Cavs in the ECF, however, and once there, who knows what might happen.

When you don't have a generational talent, that's all you can do. Be in position for multiple years and hope one of those times it all comes together.

The important thing is to retain the ability to draft that generational talent - assuming you believe Ainge and his nepotistic scouting department have the ability.