I'm about on-board with just developing Smart, Brown, and the Brooklyn picks

[Phantom255x]

IT is a talent but I feel he inhibited smarts opportunity and in the process caused us a higher draft pick.  I honestly have no idea what ainge is doing anymore after that olynyk pick and I don't think he does either.  But yes, full overhaul works for me.  Keep Bradley, trade the rest.

Full overhaul?  

If we're trading everyone else then might as well trade Bradley, and start going the Sixers route the next 5-6 years (Trust The Process).

[cltc5]

IT is a talent but I feel he inhibited smarts opportunity and in the process caused us a higher draft pick.  I honestly have no idea what ainge is doing anymore after that olynyk pick and I don't think he does either.  But yes, full overhaul works for me.  Keep Bradley, trade the rest.

Full overhaul?  

If we're trading everyone else then might as well trade Bradley, and start going the Sixers route the next 5-6 years (Trust The Process).

The sixers have a higher ceiling than we currently have.  If we keep trusting the process we'll be a young middle of the road team for the next 5-6 years.  In that time the sixers may be contending for. Title. IT WAS Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. down last night.  He gets Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. down in the playoffs.  We need playoff strong teams not teams that put together nice season stories year after year.

[coffee425]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

They also have Lebron James....

My point was to highlight that we don't have just 1 player that fits this description. We have 3 every night. If the other 2 starters (Al, Avery) has an off night, then you get a loss.

[Phantom255x]

It's so disappointing to keep losing these types of games because our stars have significant weak spots/holes and our supporting cast just doesn't make up for it.

Al's rebounding is so bad for a man of his size, and for some reason this year he has crumbled down the stretch and made bad plays more than he has made good plays, which is strange since he's been a pretty good player down the stretch for most of his career.

Then you have IT and his horrid defense. I'll give it to him that he tries his best, but his size is just too much to overcome. He's literally the worst defensive player in the league when it comes to both the TPA model of Defensive Points Saved and the statistic Defensive Real Plus Minus. Now, I generally am skeptical of advanced defensive statistics and trust the eye test more, because I think they have a difficult time of accurately isolating a player's individual defensive impact. However, this time the stats and the eye test match up, and it's not pretty whatsoever.

http://nbamath.com/tpa-database/nba-2016-17-tpa-scores/

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/11/sort/DRPM

And the rest of the roster just isn't enough to compensate for these weaknesses. Jae is apparently mentally out of it now; Smart is still developing and too inconsistent with his shot; AB has non-existent playmaking and passing skills, along with having a significant size disadvantage; KO is as inconsistent as he is frustrating; Rozier and Brown are still too young and make too many mistakes to be really reliable; and JJ is just a limited overall player.

I'm getting to the point where I think this core might not be enough to be title worthy no matter what we (realistically) add to it. I'm not advocating a fire sale, but perhaps we ought to keep the Brooklyn picks at all costs and build from there rather than trading them, even for a Boogie type. I'd still try and trade for someone like Noel before the deadline, because he's young and good enough to be part of our core going forward, while also allowing us to still be competitive this year.

But perhaps we start listening to offers and being open to moving on from IT, AB, Crowder, and Horford for the right package this summer rather than considering paying the guards big money in 2018. IT and Al could bring back a significant return, and AB and Crowder are also valuable pieces that could bring back something in return.

After tonight, I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around the possibility of paying IT $20+M per year when he is such a defensive liability that teams can exploit at almost any time during the game. I'm not sure that we can ever beat a Toronto, Cleveland, or GS when they have big/good guards that can just constantly exploit that mismatch in isolation plays or switches. And Horford has similar holes that makes me think that they're not capable of being a true 2 and 3 on a championship team.

*The Bolded Part*

Are you serious? If that was the case why did the Celtics sign Horford in the first place? Why hasn't Isaiah Thomas been traded yet?

Surely you didn't expect the Celtics to make it out of the East this year, did you? They are what they are right now, a 3 seed team in the East that can play neck-neck with Toronto but not good enough at all to beat CLE.

Horford didn't sign up to see IT get traded and a short term rebuild. And what picture does it paint to FA's if the Celtics make one of their biggest FA signings in history (on a team that doesn't have that many), only to trade him for picks the same year..

I agree with your path of building with Smart, Brown, and both Nets Picks, but trading IT and Horford just sounds idiotic. They aren't even going to get you a star player in return and trading them for picks paints a bad picture.

[slamtheking]

a full tear down is a huge overreaction.

C's are in need of a solid wing who can both score and defend.  We don't have a wing with a strong offensive game currently.  Brown may get to be that player but he's not there yet.  Crowder, solid D when not focussed on twitter but offensively limited. Jerebko's just a journeyman as is Green.

C's also need big man depth.  not just taller guys but guys that can defend and rebound at a minimum and have some offensive skills.  Zizic and Yabu may provide that depth next year.  KO's too inconsistent, Horford is solid on both ends but hasn't been as good as hoped -- he's not playing at an all-star level by any means.  Zeller is an end of roster player.

C's have a PG that is more of a SG and has challenges playing D not because of his effort but because of his size.  Opposing coaches in the playoffs have used their PGs to pick on him on offense to try to drive him out of the game with varying rates of success.  The other PGs on the roster aren't ready to be starters on a top team (if they ever develop to that point is debatable too).

We should have 2 really good picks from the Nets the next 2 years unless Danny moves the picks for a top player or 2 that address these needs.  C's are one of the better teams in the East and but are still a couple of very good players away from considering themselves a threat to Cleveland.  blowing it up to develop young players would be foolhardy especially since we're already getting high picks from the Nets without the C's having to stink to reap the rewards of the lottery. 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Fact: Just because there are trades put on message boards that make sense to you, do not mean that those trades are available in real life.  Cousins is not and has not been available, for instance.

Fact 2: Even if we trade for two players at the 2 and the 5 and those players are both better than everyone we currently have, we're still only like the 3rd best team.  So if we got say Jimmy Butler at SG and Marc Gasol at the 5, we probably don't win a championship and we certainly wouldn't win more than 1.

Fact 3: It's extremely likely that Fultz or Ball will be the BPA to us when we are drafting this year.

Fact 4: Isaiah is currently leading the east in scoring which is valuable to a lot of teams, plus he is due a lot of money, is a bad defender and plays the same position as the players named in Fact 3.

Fact 5: the team as currently constructed is very good, but will never win a championship.  So getting bent out of shape if they lose to a  good team is kind of silly, because it's ultimately meaningless.

[Ilikesports17]

Fact: Just because there are trades put on message boards that make sense to you, do not mean that those trades are available in real life.  Cousins is not and has not been available, for instance.

Fact 2: Even if we trade for two players at the 2 and the 5 and those players are both better than everyone we currently have, we're still only like the 3rd best team.  So if we got say Jimmy Butler at SG and Marc Gasol at the 5, we probably don't win a championship and we certainly wouldn't win more than 1.

Fact 3: It's extremely likely that Fultz or Ball will be the BPA to us when we are drafting this year.

Fact 4: Isaiah is currently leading the east in scoring which is valuable to a lot of teams, plus he is due a lot of money, is a bad defender and plays the same position as the players named in Fact 3.

Fact 5: the team as currently constructed is very good, but will never win a championship.  So getting bent out of shape if they lose to a  good team is kind of silly, because it's ultimately meaningless.

Fact 1. It is not a fact that Cousins has not been available. Only those in NBA front offices know that answer. It is at best extremely unlikely that he is available. Not a fact.

Fact 2. yeah I agree

Fact 3. Only if you classify extremely likely ~50%. There is some level of fluidity around the top of the draft and there is more fluidity with our Nets pick. Assuming our pick is locked into the top 4 and assuming that Ball and Fultz are locked into that same range, there is still something close to a 50% chance that when we get on the clock the best options are Jackson or Tatum or in the case of a miracle, a guy like Harry Giles.

Fact 4. Yes but if you think about it he doesnt make much sense for any teams with the substantial assets worth trading him for.

Fact 5. yeah. The loss last night was dissapointing but on the road at Toronto without one of your starters in a close game is hardly surprising.

[tankcity!]

I'm kind of confused. What would be the incentive of keeping IT if you're not winning a championship in the next two years, and he is going to be a free agent? Are we going to let him walk and get nothing for him? Or are we going to resign him for the max?

I don't think Potter is saying we should do a full rebuild since tanking this year won't bring the Celtics anything. What he is saying is we can stay in mediocrity and trade IT for a young player who fits our young core's window. Doesn't that make the most sense? We already have like 5 PG's on this team....Maybe trade IT for that young big everyone here keeps praying for...

[clevelandceltic]

I cant speak for anyone else but my frustration is not about this game but is illustrated by this game. The starters are good but limited in what they can individually do as players. They are all good players but collectively they arent good enough or have the room to grow that will make them elite players.

I have said this for weeks and I will say it again. I dont think Crowder and AB can play next to each other. They are too limited next to each other since neither is a playmaker, neither draw alot of fouls, nor put it on the deck consistently thus never being able to truly attack a guy like DeRozen.

I also dont think Amir can play center effectively. Last year he played the 4 and this year although Horford is an upgrade, its forced Amir to play the 5.

Lastly, I think the underline current is that everyone knows we have to make a decision on IT in the next 12 months. This is a major source of concern because this group has shown that it cant beat top level teams as currently constituted and I dont think that many people believe that just adding one star to this group will get them close to a title so you are somewhat stuck looking at the results of the game last night and previous games against top teams.

[mef730]

This current team stinks of mediocrity.

Horford is a star in reputation only, Thomas is a scorer who offers nothing when he can't score. If we trade away the Brooklyn pick(s) for a max guy I still believe it leaves us a major move away from being contenders. I would much rather keep the picks than package them to build around Horford and Thomas.

As much as I love IT, I think he and Horford are place holders until the BKN picks develop. Hopefully one (or both) are still productive players when our youngs (and future youngs) hit their prime. My guess is that both will see a deterioration in their game by 2022.

I think the opposite re: the BKN picks.  They'll be in a near-perfect opportunity to make major contributions when IT and Al have slowed down but are still solid. Al is locked up, and IT strikes me as a guy that'd take a pay cut to stay; but even if not, we could well end up with a great PG from this year's draft.   

ALL ABOARD THE FULTZ TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I also like Dennis Smith Jr. alot, and many others are on the "Ball train"

Would that make the latter "Ballers?"

Mike

[green_bballers13]

I'm kind of confused. What would be the incentive of keeping IT if you're not winning a championship in the next two years, and he is going to be a free agent? Are we going to let him walk and get nothing for him? Or are we going to resign him for the max?

I don't think Potter is saying we should do a full rebuild since tanking this year won't bring the Celtics anything. What he is saying is we can stay in mediocrity and trade IT for a young player who fits our young core's window. Doesn't that make the most sense? We already have like 5 PG's on this team....Maybe trade IT for that young big everyone here keeps praying for...

I love IT. Think he's one of the gutsiest guys in the NBA. What would another team propose that you would rather have than IT? He's averaging 28ppg. Seriously, who would be better? A top 5 pick- sure, I'll take it. Which team is making that trade?

[PhoSita]

I'm kind of confused. What would be the incentive of keeping IT if you're not winning a championship in the next two years, and he is going to be a free agent? Are we going to let him walk and get nothing for him? Or are we going to resign him for the max?

For the rest of IT's contract, the Celts will continue winning a bunch of games since they have one of the most talented scorers in the league.

When it's time to re-sign him, they'll have a tough choice.  But it seems very unlikely to me that they will have better ways to spend that money, or better options for taking the majority of the shots, during the time that IT would be under contract.

The mere fact that the team probably won't win a championship with IT as it's best player is not an adequate reason not to re-sign him, since having him under contract does not preclude one of the younger players from developing into the star we need, or prevent the team from trading assets for such a player.  And in the meantime, winning a lot of games and being fun to watch is an end in itself, not a means to winning a title, and keeping IT will allow the Celts to remain in the thick of the playoff picture in the Eastern Conference.

The question is how the team should continue to maximize the team around Isaiah and Horford, not whether they should trade those two because a title doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

[green_bballers13]

I'm kind of confused. What would be the incentive of keeping IT if you're not winning a championship in the next two years, and he is going to be a free agent? Are we going to let him walk and get nothing for him? Or are we going to resign him for the max?

For the rest of IT's contract, the Celts will continue winning a bunch of games since they have one of the most talented scorers in the league.

When it's time to re-sign him, they'll have a tough choice.  But it seems very unlikely to me that they will have better ways to spend that money, or better options for taking the majority of the shots, during the time that IT would be under contract.

The mere fact that the team probably won't win a championship with IT as it's best player is not an adequate reason not to re-sign him, since having him under contract does not preclude one of the younger players from developing into the star we need, or prevent the team from trading assets for such a player.  And in the meantime, winning a lot of games and being fun to watch is an end in itself, not a means to winning a title, and keeping IT will allow the Celts to remain in the thick of the playoff picture in the Eastern Conference.

The question is how the team should continue to maximize the team around Isaiah and Horford, not whether they should trade those two because a title doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

TP. Yes! I feel that a negative consequence of the unbelievable run that this city has seen over the last 16 years is the notion that a team is not worthy of one's time unless they are projected to make it to the finals. There are 30 teams. In theory, you have a 3.33% chance of winning it. If you won within the last 10 years, you might as well wait another 20 years.

Now, theory doesn't apply and there are some franchises that will likely never win a chip. However, if God came down and said that the Celtics won't win until 2032, would you stop watching the Celtics?

[chiken Green]

I've been saying this for a long time.. This team wont be a true threat until Brown, 2018, Smart and one or two of the stashed guys become our Core..

They are developing Brown the right way, making him earn ever minute of playing time and It's working.. The kid is improving and being taught how to play winning basketball on a winning team.. 

In a couple of years this will all pan out they way it was meant to pan out.. IMO

[Tr1boy]

Trade IT4 while his value is very high...

Keep Horford

And draft Fultz or Ball

sound good?