I'm about on-board with just developing Smart, Brown, and the Brooklyn picks

[LilRip]

Building around a core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz (?), and the 2018 Brooklyn pick just seems like a more logical path to contention at the moment than dealing with flawed stars and a flawed roster that is criminally undersized from the guards to the bigs.

A core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz and the 2018 BRK isn't contending for the playoffs anytime soon, let alone a title.

The Celts have the luxury of enjoying a competent team without sacrificing a shot at three consecutive top 3 picks.

Yes, this group is probably destined to be a first or second round out for a few years.

But they'll also win a lot of games, play some fun basketball (especially against weaker opponents), and give us something to watch.

In four or five years, we'll still have a bunch of young guys ready to sink or swim on their own when guys like Thomas and Horford will be close to done.

Unless one (or more) of them turn out significantly better than IT and Al, sounds like another 4-5 years of 1st-2nd round exits

[BitterJim]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

[Tr1boy]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

yes yes and yes

all three technically should be coming off the bench

[Vermont Green]

Building around a core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz (?), and the 2018 Brooklyn pick just seems like a more logical path to contention at the moment than dealing with flawed stars and a flawed roster that is criminally undersized from the guards to the bigs.

You can do both.  We can make a run with IT and the current boys for the next two seasons, maybe pick up someone like Monroe or Nurkic.  Then just let IT walk in 20018 and trade Horford and build in the way you describe.  It would be nice to get something for IT but I don't think we can have it all.  For what I feel we could get for IT, I think it is better to just play it out.

In the meantime if a superstar trade presents itself, maybe we try that but I don't see that as likely.

[Smartacus]

This current team stinks of mediocrity.

Horford is a star in reputation only, Thomas is a scorer who offers nothing when he can't score. If we trade away the Brooklyn pick(s) for a max guy I still believe it leaves us a major move away from being contenders. I would much rather keep the picks than package them to build around Horford and Thomas.

As much as I love IT, I think he and Horford are place holders until the BKN picks develop. Hopefully one (or both) are still productive players when our youngs (and future youngs) hit their prime. My guess is that both will see a deterioration in their game by 2022.

I think the opposite re: the BKN picks.  They'll be in a near-perfect opportunity to make major contributions when IT and Al have slowed down but are still solid. Al is locked up, and IT strikes me as a guy that'd take a pay cut to stay; but even if not, we could well end up with a great PG from this year's draft.   

ALL ABOARD THE FULTZ TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I also like Dennis Smith Jr. alot, and many others are on the "Ball train"

Cosign me for Fultz and Smith Jr but not on the Ball train at all. Agree with tarheel's sentiment. When the young guys start really turning it on IT and especially Horford will be in a position to provide valuable veteran leadership and show the young blood what it means to be a professional.

We're in a great position as it stands. Right now we have an excellent roster contruction, building institutional knowledge of what Celtics Basketball looks like under Stevens. We just currently match up poorly against teams with big wing players like Derozan, LeBron, Durant, Kawhi etc. This is a huge issue that isn't going away unless we make a change.

We're not going to get past those teams until we can acquire a player of their caliber. Gordon Hayward wouldn't be the answer though he would be very fun. Crowder isn't the answer since every time he steps on the court against one of them he's in over his head. [Heck] even Jimmy Butler has yet to show that he can elevate a team to the elite level

Is Jaylen Brown the answer? Maybe but I doubt it. Despite the tools, Jaylen has never produced at the level of any of those players. I'd have no qualms if Danny took a swing at Josh Jackson or Jayson Tatum this summer since it's looking like both posses the scoring gene and want the ball in their hands. Jonathan Isaac could be pretty special as well with the right development.

No need to panic but until we find our elite wing we're just kicking the can down the road.

[jpotter33]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

True, and those like Love and Irving are defensive liabilities, though Irving really picked up his defense last year in the playoffs.

But neither of them are on the level of IT due to his historically small size, along with just being a bad defender in general. I mean, it's telling that he's the worst-rated player in the league in two separate advanced defensive stats, along with being pretty bad in the eye test, too.

His offense more than makes up for his defense a lot of times, but in the playoffs those types of weaknesses will be exploited in the major and consistent way that Toronto did last night. He already gives up a ton of points every night as it is, but when the game slows down and they game plan against you, you get the kind of dominance over IT that we saw last night.

[mctyson]

This current team stinks of mediocrity.

Mediocre, to me and most people, means average.  .500, 50%, middle, median, ordinary, etc.

Celtics are easily in the top-10 in winning pct, and prior to last night they had a chance to tie for top-5.  That is not under, any interpretation of the word, mediocre.

They lost a game on the road against a team that is better, without their starting SG.  Stop overreacting. 

[mctyson]

Building around a core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz (?), and the 2018 Brooklyn pick just seems like a more logical path to contention at the moment than dealing with flawed stars and a flawed roster that is criminally undersized from the guards to the bigs.

You are correct that they are criminally undersized.  They need to get stronger down low.  JV had his way with them last night.  It is affecting their defense.  It shows how people underrated how much Sullinger meant to the team when he was playing well.

But we don't need to trade anything meaningful to get help down there.  Bogut makes to much sense not to bring him here, Dallas will take a 2nd round pick for him.  I would throw in James Young too so we can open a roster spot and bring in one of the Nader/Yabusele/Zizic trio.

Guys are overreacting.  It is January, they have a .600 win pct, and higher when their starting 5 is healthy.  Not having AB killed them last night in the 4th quarter with Derozan going off. 

[PhoSita]

Building around a core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz (?), and the 2018 Brooklyn pick just seems like a more logical path to contention at the moment than dealing with flawed stars and a flawed roster that is criminally undersized from the guards to the bigs.

A core of Smart, Noel, Brown, Fultz and the 2018 BRK isn't contending for the playoffs anytime soon, let alone a title.

The Celts have the luxury of enjoying a competent team without sacrificing a shot at three consecutive top 3 picks.

Yes, this group is probably destined to be a first or second round out for a few years.

But they'll also win a lot of games, play some fun basketball (especially against weaker opponents), and give us something to watch.

In four or five years, we'll still have a bunch of young guys ready to sink or swim on their own when guys like Thomas and Horford will be close to done.

Unless one (or more) of them turn out significantly better than IT and Al, sounds like another 4-5 years of 1st-2nd round exits

I mean sure, but welcome to the NBA. A lot of teams would kill to make the playoffs and have a shot at making it to the second round for multiple seasons in a row.

You can't do much better for getting a shot at a top player than three straight picks in the top three. The Celts will likely have that when all is said and done.


So unless you would prefer to watch a bad team rather than a good but not great team, I don't see much point in giving up on the current core.

[greece66]

Ah, the everything-would-have-been-great-had-we-won-but-we-lost-and-now-everything-sucks thread.

Just on time.

[Moranis]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

Irving when he tries is actually a respectable defender, he just doesn't give full bore effort all of the time.  Love is below average, but he rebounds incredibly well so he can at least end possessions by grabbing the ball off the glass. 

Boston's real problem is it doesn't have a 2 way franchise level player and that person is not walking through the door without using or drafting the BKN picks.  If you draft them it will be years before you know if the player hits and if you trade them there is still no guarantee you even get past Cleveland let alone win a title.

[tankcity!]

It's so disappointing to keep losing these types of games because our stars have significant weak spots/holes and our supporting cast just doesn't make up for it.

Al's rebounding is so bad for a man of his size, and for some reason this year he has crumbled down the stretch and made bad plays more than he has made good plays, which is strange since he's been a pretty good player down the stretch for most of his career.

Then you have IT and his horrid defense. I'll give it to him that he tries his best, but his size is just too much to overcome. He's literally the worst defensive player in the league when it comes to both the TPA model of Defensive Points Saved and the statistic Defensive Real Plus Minus. Now, I generally am skeptical of advanced defensive statistics and trust the eye test more, because I think they have a difficult time of accurately isolating a player's individual defensive impact. However, this time the stats and the eye test match up, and it's not pretty whatsoever.

http://nbamath.com/tpa-database/nba-2016-17-tpa-scores/

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/11/sort/DRPM

And the rest of the roster just isn't enough to compensate for these weaknesses. Jae is apparently mentally out of it now; Smart is still developing and too inconsistent with his shot; AB has non-existent playmaking and passing skills, along with having a significant size disadvantage; KO is as inconsistent as he is frustrating; Rozier and Brown are still too young and make too many mistakes to be really reliable; and JJ is just a limited overall player.

I'm getting to the point where I think this core might not be enough to be title worthy no matter what we (realistically) add to it. I'm not advocating a fire sale, but perhaps we ought to keep the Brooklyn picks at all costs and build from there rather than trading them, even for a Boogie type. I'd still try and trade for someone like Noel before the deadline, because he's young and good enough to be part of our core going forward, while also allowing us to still be competitive this year.

But perhaps we start listening to offers and being open to moving on from IT, AB, Crowder, and Horford for the right package this summer rather than considering paying the guards big money in 2018. IT and Al could bring back a significant return, and AB and Crowder are also valuable pieces that could bring back something in return.

After tonight, I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around the possibility of paying IT $20+M per year when he is such a defensive liability that teams can exploit at almost any time during the game. I'm not sure that we can ever beat a Toronto, Cleveland, or GS when they have big/good guards that can just constantly exploit that mismatch in isolation plays or switches. And Horford has similar holes that makes me think that they're not capable of being a true 2 and 3 on a championship team.

I agree with this post. I've been feeling like this for a while and it's why I didn't want to trade for Butler. Even if we add a star like Cousins, we can't beat the Warriors or the Cavs imo. IT is not a good enough player. He truly is a sixth man imo. He is a special offensive player, but he is too much of a liability on the other end. They just kept forcing IT to guard Derozan on a switch. We should get used to that against smart teams.

I'm all in for trading IT and Horford tbh. Would love to have some young studs in the same window as our young core. I would keep Bradley and Crowder unless you get a great offer. They fit with our young core window.

[chilidawg]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

Irving when he tries is actually a respectable defender, he just doesn't give full bore effort all of the time.  Love is below average, but he rebounds incredibly well so he can at least end possessions by grabbing the ball off the glass. 

Boston's real problem is it doesn't have a 2 way franchise level player and that person is not walking through the door without using or drafting the BKN picks.  If you draft them it will be years before you know if the player hits and if you trade them there is still no guarantee you even get past Cleveland let alone win a title.

If you're looking for guaranteed success you're on the wrong planet.

[tankcity!]

It's really as simple as this.

You cannot compete as a "top 4" contender if one of your starters is a negative on one end of the floor.

Beyond IT4's defense, we have Amir's offense, and Jae Crowder's inconsistencies. I expect all 3 will not be starting on the Cs during a true contention playoff run.

So, are Love and Irving now good defensive players? Was Perk a good offensive player? Go back and look at the teams that won championships in the past 10 years, pretty much every one of them had at least one one-way starter

They also have Lebron James....

[cltc5]

IT is a talent but I feel he inhibited smarts opportunity and in the process caused us a higher draft pick.  I honestly have no idea what ainge is doing anymore after that olynyk pick and I don't think he does either.  But yes, full overhaul works for me.  Keep Bradley, trade the rest.