SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

[MBunge]

Im not sure if the author the author has an accurate picture of the Cs. On one hand he says they need to win now and have the assets to acquire all but a top 15 player. If this is indeed the case how does the author estimate that we beat the Cavs?

Let take a look at the rosters:
Cavs:
Top 5 players- 1
Top 15 players - 1
Top 20 players 2- 1
Top 50 players- 1

Warriors:
Top 5 players - 1
Top 15 players - 3
Top 50 players- 1

Raptors:
Top 5 players - 0
Top 15 players - 0
Top 30 players - 2
Top 50 players - 1

Celtics:
Top 5 players - 0
Top 15 players - 0
Top 20 players - 0
Top 30 - 2
Top 50 - 2

A trade for a top 20- 30 player is not going to push this team past the Cavs or Warriors. If you could find a guy in the top 15 without losing more than one top 30 and one top 50 player then ok you will probably compete in my opinion.

Isaiah Thomas and Kyle Lowry are top 20 players.

The idea that Love and Irving are clearly on a different tier than Lowry and IT is pretty strange.

I think it's based on Kyrie only being 24 years old and the video game stats Love put up in Minnesota.  It's legit for Kyrie to say if he's this good when he's only two years older than Joel Embiid, he's on a different level than Lowry and IT even though they seem closer right now.

You are right on Love, however.  What he's shown in Cleveland on a winning team is that he's a really, really good player but not above guys like Lowry, IT and Chris Bosh.

Mike 

[clevelandceltic]

Even if you scratched off the names you scratched off that still puts him barely in the top 20. I would also say that Lillard is certainly a better player and while some obviously disagree I think Towns is on the outer edges of top 20.

Let be real here. If virtually any of these players were offered straight up for IT you would jump on that deal. There are very few players on that list that you would even think twice about.

Being fringe top 20 like Lowry, DeRozen, IT, Horford is good enough to get you a ton of wins. They are also good enough to win you a few rounds if paired with the right players.

My point is this, in order to beat the Cavs today, the Cs need a top 15 player. If Horford and IT are so close to top 20 or are in the top 20 we should be much closer to contenders than we currently are.

Ok lets go through the names because if they are top 20 they are on the fringe:

LeBron
Kyrie
Love
Butler
George
Greek Freak
Wall
Lillard
Hayward
Westbrook
Towns
Aldridge
Kawhi
Davis
Marc Gasol
Harden
Cousins
Blake
CP3
Jordan
Durant
Draymond
Curry
Thompson

Lowry is better than all 8 players I crossed out. Thomas is better than almost all of them.

This season Thomas has actually been better than Steph, CP3, Kyrie, and George as well. Horford isnt a top 20 player and I think Derozan is in the 20-30 range as you placed him.

I really don't understand how people come up with these lists. Lowry was a starter in the all-star game, was the best player on a top 5 team in the league. Nearly made the all-defensive second team and people have him behind a guy like Towns that, while still tremendously talented, is actually trying to learn how to play defense at the NBA level and has led his team to the worst records in the leage in his short time in the league. Don't get me wrong, I think Towns will be great, but he is not in the same league as Lowry is right now or how Lowry performed last season. We have to stop calling players top 20 players because they are on sportscenters or hot names.
EDIT: To be clear I agree i was agreeing with ilikesports about the rankings

Edit2: The idea that Hayward, who has never been an all star, is better than Lowry is also pretty ridiculous

[clevelandceltic]

That list is of 25 players so obviously its not the list of the top 20 nor was it a list of who is better than Lowry because I would take Lowry or Hayward but they arent far apart in terms of quality of talent.

Lastly the list was made because even on something that is very subjective, it shows the level of talent on other teams. The Cavs have 3 top 25 players with 1 being the best player. If your best player is as good or at least only slightly better than their 3rd best player then you have some work to do.

There is a reason people say lets get Butler, Cousins, and George instead of Milsap when Milsap is probably a top 35 player. Its because they know that that player isnt good enough to put them over the top the say way a top 15 or so player could.

Ok lets go through the names because if they are top 20 they are on the fringe:

LeBron
Kyrie
Love
Butler
George
Greek Freak
Wall
Lillard
Hayward
Westbrook
Towns
Aldridge
Kawhi
Davis
Marc Gasol
Harden
Cousins
Blake
CP3
Jordan
Durant
Draymond
Curry
Thompson

Lowry is better than all 8 players I crossed out. Thomas is better than almost all of them.

This season Thomas has actually been better than Steph, CP3, Kyrie, and George as well. Horford isnt a top 20 player and I think Derozan is in the 20-30 range as you placed him.

I really don't understand how people come up with these lists. Lowry was a starter in the all-star game, was the best player on a top 5 team in the league. Nearly made the all-defensive second team and people have him behind a guy like Towns that, while still tremendously talented, is actually trying to learn how to play defense at the NBA level and has led his team to the worst records in the leage in his short time in the league. Don't get me wrong, I think Towns will be great, but he is not in the same league as Lowry is right now or how Lowry performed last season. We have to stop calling players top 20 players because they are on sportscenters or hot names.
EDIT: To be clear I agree i was agreeing with ilikesports about the rankings

Edit2: The idea that Hayward, who has never been an all star, is better than Lowry is also pretty ridiculous

[Celtics4ever]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

I doubt they (CLE)  even see us as a threat, really.  Now if the raptors get Milsap they might be threatened.  If we got him they see us as ATL Lite.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I wonder how many people actually read the article and not just my headline.

First part was about the Cavs, but here is what it said about the Raptors and Celtics.


Now, will Ujiri and Ainge allow the Cavaliers to race further ahead, or will they, like Griffin, strike too?

For Toronto, there’s no debate: action is needed. Despite a trip to the 2016 East finals, two All-Star guards, a 24-11 record and a No. 2 ranked offense, the Raptors are now more two months into the season without a truly impressive victory. Dwane Casey’s team is not only 0-7 against the Cavaliers, Warriors, Spurs and Clippers, but they gave up an average of 116 points in those losses.

Their backcourt firepower is simply insufficient to overcome their matchup problems in the frontcourt. Traditional center Jonas Valanciunas struggles to keep up against small-ball opponents, young bigs Bebe Nogueira and Pascal Siakham aren’t quite ready for primetime, Jared Sullinger still hasn’t touched the court yet this season, and Patrick Patterson can only fill so many minutes. Meaningful improvement will have to come from outside if Toronto hopes to compete with a frontline that includes James, Love and Tristan Thompson. 

But this isn’t simply a matter of positional balancing for the Raptors, this is an organizational crossroads. The past two seasons represent the golden era of the franchise’s history, in no small part because Kyle Lowry is in his prime. Lowry, 30, is headed for a massive pay increase as an unrestricted free agent next summer and then age-related decline not too long after that. This is Toronto’s shot. As the Raptors learned after Vince Carter’s departure, and then again after Chris Bosh’s relocation to South Beach, shots can sometimes take years and years to materialize. The Raptors need only turn to the 2012 Celtics, or the 2014 Pacers, or the 2015 Hawks to realize how quickly and firmly the window for contention can be shut.

To be clear, Toronto isn’t just praying talent lands in its lap. Ujiri is armed with a glut of young wings, headlined by Terrence Ross, and an extra first-round pick.

Boston, meanwhile, is similarly primed for onboarding talent. Last summer, Ainge scored a rare double victory: 1) he added Horford, an All-Star in his prime, and 2) he didn’t have to part with any major assets to do it. At the time, SI.com believed that adding Horford should be viewed as a precursor to whatever happened next. With a cache of young (and expendable) rotation players and too many future draft assets to count, Ainge can reasonably construct attractive trade packages for all but, say, the NBA’s top 15 stars and top-tier young prospects.

Perhaps the urgency is slightly less in Boston than in Toronto, given that Isaiah Thomas is younger than Lowry, the relative youth of the Celtics’ key cast members, and the treasure trove of quality picks that are being hand-delivered from the Nets. Regardless, this is a team and an organization that should be going for it: Brad Stevens has steadily rebuilt the Celtics, Thomas has made another big leap this season, and Horford, at 30 and with some major injury issues in his past, is ready to compete now.

After back-to-back empty trips to the postseason, Boston finds itself this year in much the same boat as Toronto last year: The honeymoon period is over and it’s time to win a series or shamefully don the “Disappointment” label. Like the Raptors, the Celtics are 0-5 against the Cavaliers, Warriors and Spurs, conceding an average of 115 points in the five losses. Like the Raptors, the Celtics could use some frontcourt help: Boston ranks near the bottom in rebounding rate, and its defense has regressed this season in part due to injury absences to key players like Horford and Jae Crowder.       

There’s one obvious answer for both Toronto and Boston, Atlanta’s Paul Millsap, and surely other options will emerge as the trade deadline gets closer. Millsap, a three-time All-Star and 2016 All-Defensive selection, would fit in with virtually any contender, given that he can score without dominating the ball, defend multiple positions, and function as either a power forward or a small ball five. In Toronto, he would plug Casey’s biggest positional hole and give the Raptors a much more intriguing small look. In Boston, he could reprise his pairing with Horford, giving Stevens a big upgrade at the four and giving Thomas another proven auxiliary scoring option.

With Korver gone, Millsap is the last remaining starter from the 2015 Hawks and it makes little sense to hang around given management’s ongoing retooling efforts. At 31, he is undoubtedly seeking one final major pay day next summer, but he would be foolish to tie himself to a Hawks franchise dumped Teague to avoid paying him, couldn’t convince Horford to re-sign, settled for Dwight Howard, and shopped Millsap last summer. That’s not just writing on the wall, that’s sprawling graffiti.

To be clear, though, for the Raptors and the Celtics this has become about more than than simply taking part in the inevitable Millsap auction. Indeed, the next six weeks or so are about whether Ujiri and Ainge are willing to roll the dice and improve rosters that clearly need improving. The Korver trade is the latest reminder that Cleveland is fully committed, whether it be luxury tax dollars or future assets, to defending its title. No doubt, Cleveland will look to address its other holes, perhaps an extra ball-handler, and Golden State will respond in kind, especially once buyout season rolls around.

There’s been plenty of frustrated chatter this season around the idea that the NBA is too top-heavy and that its two Superteams are headed for a third straight Finals showdown, and understandably so. But at least some of that venom should be saved for executives like Ujiri and Ainge, should they decide to sit on their hands and assets, playing for a future that may not come.

The Cavaliers and Warriors have both worked tirelessly to tinker with and perfect their rosters, even after both won titles and even though such efforts often come at great cost. It would be borderline infuriating if their arms race remains a two-team affair.   

I think the author of this article doesn't understand Danny Ainge.

I want to "win now" as much as anyone, but why go for broke when even your best effort is likely not enough to win the war?

Lately I've been coming to realize that perhaps the wisest course of action for Boston is to keep riding this nice little wave it has going—taking advantage, of course, of every opportunity (big or small) that shows itself along the way, but ultimately waiting to strike until the iron is hot: Namely, when LeBron's cooked. Especially given the fact that there's no "heir apparent" in the East for whenever LeBron has passed his prime.

Maybe the "heir" will be one of Boston's picks.

How long will it take for Lebron to be cooked?  2 years?  4?  6?   We can't just keep riding the little wave and expect to be contenders eventually.  Acquiring Horford was a win now move.  If we're not going to make more moves to be a contender, it doesn't really makes sense to spend big bucks to retain Thomas, Bradley and Smart next offseason.  Smart should be the cheapest to retain so why not move Thomas or Bradley assuming we could get a reasonably good return for them that would improve our future position. 

As for possible "heir apparents", I'd put the Bucks at the top of the list.  They are a .500 team right now without Middleton.  Assuming Parker continues to progress they've got their stars.  So they just need to add the right PG and Center to support Giannis, Parker and Middleton.  The Sixers with Embiid and Simmons and all their assets are also well positioned to become as an "heir apparent" albeit with significantly more uncertainty.

You make a valid point about LeBron's remaining window.

It seems to me that he has at least 2 more years (after this season) of "prime" LeBron, in which case it may make more sense to hold off on any major moves for a couple more years (unless a golden opportunity presents itself, in which case Danny needs to roll with it and hope for the best). After that point, though, I agree with you that we should just go for it and not wait any longer.

[mctyson]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

Korver is a 35 year-old 3pt specialist.  Yes, he might be one of the best ever at that specialty, but that is it.

He is replacing Josh Smith who actually can do a lot more than that.  I am not downplaying Korver's ability or the fact that this makes Cleveland more dangerous, but honestly is is no message to anyone let alone the Celtics.

[saltlover]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

Korver is a 35 year-old 3pt specialist.  Yes, he might be one of the best ever at that specialty, but that is it.

He is replacing Josh Smith JR Smith who actually can do a lot more than that.  I am not downplaying Korver's ability or the fact that this makes Cleveland more dangerous, but honestly is is no message to anyone let alone the Celtics.

Fixed it for you.  No one can replace JSmoove.

[LarBrd33]

This isn't our window and I don't see any trade we can make to change that.   Really the most likely result is making a misguided run at a window that doesn't exist and ruining our chance of a window in the next generation that could exist if we get lucky with the picks.

[droopdog7]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

Korver is a 35 year-old 3pt specialist.  Yes, he might be one of the best ever at that specialty, but that is it.

He is replacing Josh Smith JR Smith who actually can do a lot more than that.  I am not downplaying Korver's ability or the fact that this makes Cleveland more dangerous, but honestly is is no message to anyone let alone the Celtics.

Fixed it for you.  No one can replace JSmoove.

What other things can JR Smith do that the remaining players can't make up for?  I'd say, nothing really.  Korver is a better shooter and a better fit next to Lebron and Kyrie.  It's going to make them significantly better to have a deadly, maybe the deadliest, shooter. 

[clevelandceltic]

I also want to make note of something that he said about the Raptors thats also true about the Cs. We have a very bad frontcourt matchup with the Cavs. In the 1 game Horford has played he didnt offer much. Now that was one game and a really bad one at that but in the back of my mind Im always thinking how do you beat LeBron when your 2 best scorers are 6'2 and smaller? It has never happened.

[celticsclay]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

Korver is a 35 year-old 3pt specialist.  Yes, he might be one of the best ever at that specialty, but that is it.

He is replacing Josh Smith JR Smith who actually can do a lot more than that.  I am not downplaying Korver's ability or the fact that this makes Cleveland more dangerous, but honestly is is no message to anyone let alone the Celtics.

Fixed it for you.  No one can replace JSmoove.

What other things can JR Smith do that the remaining players can't make up for?  I'd say, nothing really.  Korver is a better shooter and a better fit next to Lebron and Kyrie.  It's going to make them significantly better to have a deadly, maybe the deadliest, shooter.

I'm sorry but the hype on the Cavs getting a 35 year old shooter that had bad athleticism to begin with as some huge move is becoming so over the top it feels like an april fools joke. Now he is maybe the deadliest shooter in the NBA? He isn't even in the top 20 in 3p shooting percentage.
You now think he is better than Curry? Thompson? Hell Patrick Beverly is hitting 3's at a higher percentage than Korver right now and his shooting percentage would be 3rd on the Cavs.

[Ilikesports17]

SI - Korver trade is a message to Celtics and Raptors to act

Korver is a 35 year-old 3pt specialist.  Yes, he might be one of the best ever at that specialty, but that is it.

He is replacing Josh Smith JR Smith who actually can do a lot more than that.  I am not downplaying Korver's ability or the fact that this makes Cleveland more dangerous, but honestly is is no message to anyone let alone the Celtics.

Fixed it for you.  No one can replace JSmoove.

What other things can JR Smith do that the remaining players can't make up for?  I'd say, nothing really.  Korver is a better shooter and a better fit next to Lebron and Kyrie.  It's going to make them significantly better to have a deadly, maybe the deadliest, shooter.

Reread that post man

[JSD]

To think, Ainge could have got us a whitey and he didn't act on it. Doesn't he know that ass Bostonians we demand white players? Very disappointing.

Anyway, I don't mind standing pat for now and letting things play out, unless we can get a superstar.

[Chris22]

Who cares what the Cavs do?
We have our own path to follow.

[Ilikesports17]

Even if you scratched off the names you scratched off that still puts him barely in the top 20. I would also say that Lillard is certainly a better player and while some obviously disagree I think Towns is on the outer edges of top 20.

Let be real here. If virtually any of these players were offered straight up for IT you would jump on that deal. There are very few players on that list that you would even think twice about.

Being fringe top 20 like Lowry, DeRozen, IT, Horford is good enough to get you a ton of wins. They are also good enough to win you a few rounds if paired with the right players.

My point is this, in order to beat the Cavs today, the Cs need a top 15 player. If Horford and IT are so close to top 20 or are in the top 20 we should be much closer to contenders than we currently are.

Ok lets go through the names because if they are top 20 they are on the fringe:

LeBron
Kyrie
Love
Butler
George
Greek Freak
Wall
Lillard
Hayward
Westbrook
Towns
Aldridge
Kawhi
Davis
Marc Gasol
Harden
Cousins
Blake
CP3
Jordan
Durant
Draymond
Curry
Thompson

Lowry is better than all 8 players I crossed out. Thomas is better than almost all of them.

This season Thomas has actually been better than Steph, CP3, Kyrie, and George as well. Horford isnt a top 20 player and I think Derozan is in the 20-30 range as you placed him.

I really don't understand how people come up with these lists. Lowry was a starter in the all-star game, was the best player on a top 5 team in the league. Nearly made the all-defensive second team and people have him behind a guy like Towns that, while still tremendously talented, is actually trying to learn how to play defense at the NBA level and has led his team to the worst records in the leage in his short time in the league. Don't get me wrong, I think Towns will be great, but he is not in the same league as Lowry is right now or how Lowry performed last season. We have to stop calling players top 20 players because they are on sportscenters or hot names.
EDIT: To be clear I agree i was agreeing with ilikesports about the rankings

Edit2: The idea that Hayward, who has never been an all star, is better than Lowry is also pretty ridiculous

Everyone seems to agree the cavs are borderline untouchable. Also, I think you are pretty substantially disrespecting Kyle Lowry. Isaiah I'll accept as a fringe top 20 guy but this season he has played like a fringe top 10 guy.

The "who wouldn't you trade Thomas for" Line of thinking is irrelevant .

Moreover, I disagree with the bolded. There are currently 2 or 3 contenders depending on how you feel about the Spurs.

Golden State has what Id say are the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league, San Antonio, Id say has the 4th best player in the league and the best coach of this generation and Cleveland has the best player since Michael Jordan.

Those teams are obviously far superior to a team who has 2 top 20 players(and I agree that Al is not top 20) I also think Derozan is pretty overrated, but Lowry is really a stud. Maybe even a top 15 guy in my mind.