Don't give up on Smart

[saltlover]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley was drafted a year earlier and wasn't the 6th pick. Comparing Smart to other players drafted outside the lottery isn't something we're supposed to be doing.

I'm confused... weren't you the one who started the comparison earlier in this chain?

EDIT: Got confused on the nested quotes.  You were not.

[Eja117]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley was drafted a year earlier and wasn't the 6th pick. Comparing Smart to other players drafted outside the lottery isn't something we're supposed to be doing.

I'm confused... weren't you the one who started the comparison earlier in this chain?

EDIT: Got confused on the nested quotes.  You were not.

Well I did compare them but to say Avery is better and has generally shown more improvement year to year.

[Eja117]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley was drafted a year earlier and wasn't the 6th pick. Comparing Smart to other players drafted outside the lottery isn't something we're supposed to be doing.

Where a player was picked has nothing to do with how they develop.  If Smart ended up at Bradley's level (a borderline all star), that's a good thing regardless of where Bradley was drafted.

Should teams be concerned if their first rounders start developing like Isaiah just because he was a 60th overall pick instead of an early lottery pick?

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest Smart will end up anything like Bradley, and when Smart was drafted I don't think the plan was to wait till he's 28 years old to start to make Bradley type contributions.

[Eja117]

Wait a second. This isn't the plan with Jaylen Brown is it? To accept minimal improvements year to year and wait for him to finally get very good when he's about 28 almost a decade into his career is it?

[GratefulCs]

Payshunce

[Ilikesports17]

Wait a second. This isn't the plan with Jaylen Brown is it? To accept minimal improvements year to year and wait for him to finally get very good when he's about 28 almost a decade into his career is it?

no. That is not the plan. There is no way to know exactly what Boston expected from Marcus Smart either, however it does not matter whether or not he is progressing as according to plan.

Smart presumably was picked as a guy who could come in and quickly become your franchise point gaurd and a future star. This has not happened. Smart has underperformed those expectations. However, this does not matter. He is still a good player who has slowly improved and has shown that given the right role can excel.

Now you are the first person Ive ever seen deem Smart soft, so perhaps Im wrong, but I can imagine we can all agree that Smart has made marginal improvements from year to year, he can continue to slowly improve, and that he is already a solid roleplayer.

The fact that he was picked 6th is nothing more than a sunk cost. Bummer. I also wish that Smart was scoring 18 a game. Hes not.  He is a good role player who adds toughness, defense, some playmaking, and some clutch plays. If he improves his shot and cleans up his shot selection and is able to improve his savvy in the paint (all completely reasonable things to improve on) he can grow into an elite roleplayer.

I have no problem with retaining an elite roleplayer especially because I think he will be signable at a lower cost than a player who adds the same value as him but does it via scoring and shooting 3s.

[Eja117]

Payshunce

I don't believe in that

Bird shows up...boom. Championships

KG shows up...championship

Brady gets in there...rings

Schilling shows up....no more curse

I grant you Steph Curry and Dirk....there was a patience factor there.  MJ. Him too a little bit

[littleteapot]

Payshunce

I don't believe in that

Bird shows up...boom. Championships

KG shows up...championship

Brady gets in there...rings

Schilling shows up....no more curse

I grant you Steph Curry and Dirk....there was a patience factor there.  MJ. Him too a little bit

Yeah Pedro was on the Red Sox for years and there was still a curse. He sure sucked!

[Eja117]

Payshunce

I don't believe in that

Bird shows up...boom. Championships

KG shows up...championship

Brady gets in there...rings

Schilling shows up....no more curse

I grant you Steph Curry and Dirk....there was a patience factor there.  MJ. Him too a little bit

Yeah Pedro was on the Red Sox for years and there was still a curse. He sure sucked!

Are we comparing Smart to Pedro?

At least Pedro admitted the Yankees were his daddy.

[littleteapot]

Are we comparing Smart to Pedro?

At least Pedro admitted the Yankees were his daddy.

Obviously not, but your point that some acquisitions immediately result in championships is pretty terrible. In all the examples you mentioned, the new player was added to a team that was a step below championship caliber already, mostly due to the team as a whole improving gradually in years prior with other talented players. The Sox missed the playoffs several years with Pedro pitching as well as anyone else in the league.

On Smart, no he isn't going to be a centerpiece - our best realistic hope for him is to be able to do enough in half-court offense to allow his contributions in other areas to win us games.

[Boris Badenov]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

The proper comp to me for shooting is Bradley's prior and next year, because the one you're talking about was an outlier in terms of his shooting, due to his slow recovery from shoulder injury.

[Eja117]

Are we comparing Smart to Pedro?

At least Pedro admitted the Yankees were his daddy.

Obviously not, but your point that some acquisitions immediately result in championships is pretty terrible. In all the examples you mentioned, the new player was added to a team that was a step below championship caliber already, mostly due to the team as a whole improving gradually in years prior with other talented players. The Sox missed the playoffs several years with Pedro pitching as well as anyone else in the league.

On Smart, no he isn't going to be a centerpiece - our best realistic hope for him is to be able to do enough in half-court offense to allow his contributions in other areas to win us games.

Ok, that's definitely not true at all there. Schilling is the only one that fit that

[Boris Badenov]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley had already made 2nd team All-Defense by the time he was as old as Smart is now.

[CelticGuardian]

Yeah, if Smart is still doing the same thing at year 4. Then he is what he is at that point. Sucks that he wouldn't have gone 6th in hindsight. But what can you do? We should be used to this by now. Only thing we can do is retain him or send him packing. Im in favor of keeping him as long as he keeps doing the things hes been doing recently on offense which is to let other guys finish the plays. Then we draft Lonzo Ball and develop him as our PG of the future.

[BitterJim]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.

Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley had already made 2nd team All-Defense by the time he was as old as Smart is now.

In 50% more complete seasons than Smart had played, though. One year of NBA experience makes way more of a difference than one year of age that early in a player's career