Author Topic: Don't give up on Smart  (Read 19657 times)

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Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #105 on: December 28, 2016, 05:35:23 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I don't believe in that

Bird shows up...boom. Championships

KG shows up...championship

Brady gets in there...rings

Schilling shows up....no more curse

I grant you Steph Curry and Dirk....there was a patience factor there.  MJ. Him too a little bit
Marcus smart is not Larry Bird or KG. He is not Tom Brady or Curt Schilling. He isnt Steph Curry or Dirk Nowitzki.

The only player on that list without an MVP award is Curt Schilling and he was added to a team that lost in the 11th inning of game 7 of the ALCS. He is also one of the greatest postseason pitchers of his generation.

If that is your expectation for Marcus Smart, you are delusional.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2016, 05:49:07 PM »

Offline MBunge

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2016, 05:52:07 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I'm of the opinion Smart would be one of the top three " wants " on most teams  wanting to swap talent.

I did not worry about Rondo shooting and I'm not worried about Smart .   I really could care less ,  he does all the thing the rest of them other than Crowder won't do night in and night out .

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2016, 05:56:08 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.
Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley had already made 2nd team All-Defense by the time he was as old as Smart is now.

In 50% more complete seasons than Smart had played, though. One year of NBA experience makes way more of a difference than one year of age that early in a player's career

Not sure I understand. Bradley had played fewer games (95) in the two years leading up to being named All-Defense. Smart has already played two years and 128 games. So even if Smart makes it this year, it'll be with more NBA experience.

Worth noting that Bradley made that team despite playing only 50 games. Pretty amazing.

And the point I was making was that saying "Smart is way ahead of Bradley" was not right. I'm just saying they are at least equal, I'm not staking out a strong opinion that Bradley was way ahead.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2016, 06:02:33 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

That's the main point if anyone is going to argue about us missing on a #6 pick. Who was taken afterwards that is clearly better? Nobody imo. Randle has his limitations but puts up numbers on a bad team. Vonleh, Stauskas, McDermott and Exum look like busts, Gordon and Lavine are ok but not anywhere near a star. We were not in position to get Embiid sadly, and we missed out on Nurkic who was taken right before Young, but there is nobody taken after Smart that you can strongly argue we missed on.

We should have traded up a spot or two to get Nurkic instead of James Young though, but what can you do, hindsight is 20/20.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2016, 06:05:33 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

That's the main point if anyone is going to argue about us missing on a #6 pick. Who was taken afterwards that is clearly better? Nobody imo. Randle has his limitations but puts up numbers on a bad team. Vonleh, Stauskas, McDermott and Exum look like busts, Gordon and Lavine are ok but not anywhere near a star. We were not in position to get Embiid sadly, and we missed out on Nurkic who was taken right before Young, but there is nobody taken after Smart that you can strongly argue we missed on.

We should have traded up a spot or two to get Nurkic instead of James Young though, but what can you do, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes. I think this is an unappreciated point. TPs.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2016, 06:08:48 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I don't believe in that

Bird shows up...boom. Championships

KG shows up...championship

Brady gets in there...rings

Schilling shows up....no more curse

I grant you Steph Curry and Dirk....there was a patience factor there.  MJ. Him too a little bit
Marcus smart is not Larry Bird or KG. He is not Tom Brady or Curt Schilling. He isnt Steph Curry or Dirk Nowitzki.

The only player on that list without an MVP award is Curt Schilling and he was added to a team that lost in the 11th inning of game 7 of the ALCS. He is also one of the greatest postseason pitchers of his generation.

If that is your expectation for Marcus Smart, you are delusional.
I'm just saying I'm not patient and you can tell a significant difference maker when you see one. The drop off between Smart and Rozier is just not that big a drop right now. 

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2016, 06:08:53 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

That's the main point if anyone is going to argue about us missing on a #6 pick. Who was taken afterwards that is clearly better? Nobody imo. Randle has his limitations but puts up numbers on a bad team. Vonleh, Stauskas, McDermott and Exum look like busts, Gordon and Lavine are ok but not anywhere near a star. We were not in position to get Embiid sadly, and we missed out on Nurkic who was taken right before Young, but there is nobody taken after Smart that you can strongly argue we missed on.

We should have traded up a spot or two to get Nurkic instead of James Young though, but what can you do, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes. I think this is an unappreciated point. TPs.
who cares?

Evaluate the player, not the draft position. Unless we are talking about Ainge's drafting abilities, which does not appear to be the crux of this debate.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2016, 06:14:23 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.
Then why isn't he improving.....noticeably?  His shot is a little better. His passing is a little better. He's more clutch. But he's not what he should be.

In his last 4 games he's averaging 13 points. 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 0.8 blocks. He's also on the floor in crunch time every night, plays a key role on a top 3 team in the East, and is not starting because he's backing up two all-star caliber vets. I'd say he's doing quite well for a guy in his 3rd year who missed large parts of his first 2 years from injuries. He already looks significantly better than Bradley did at that stage and look how he turned out.

I disagree. At the same age Bradley was just as renowned defensively, if not more so, and had established one valuable offensive skill, while Smart has zero.

I think you're misremembering a little.  Smart in his age 22 season actually has a slightly higher TS% (.465 to .461) than Bradley had in his age 22 season.  AB had shot significantly better the season before, but it was in a relatively small stretch of games, and given his major regression in year 3, we can hardly call it an established skill.

Exactly. Let's not romanticize Bradley's first few seasons now that he turned into a borderline all-star. He was downright awful on offense and was not more renowned for his defense that Smart is right now. Smart can at least dribble the ball past half court and is a very good passer, two things that completely eluded Bradley in his first few seasons. Passing still is a problem with Bradley even today.

Bradley had already made 2nd team All-Defense by the time he was as old as Smart is now.

In 50% more complete seasons than Smart had played, though. One year of NBA experience makes way more of a difference than one year of age that early in a player's career

Not sure I understand. Bradley had played fewer games (95) in the two years leading up to being named All-Defense. Smart has already played two years and 128 games. So even if Smart makes it this year, it'll be with more NBA experience.

Worth noting that Bradley made that team despite playing only 50 games. Pretty amazing.

And the point I was making was that saying "Smart is way ahead of Bradley" was not right. I'm just saying they are at least equal, I'm not staking out a strong opinion that Bradley was way ahead.

My main point is that Bradley had 1 more opportunity to win the award, and won it in that last opportunity. It doesnt make much sense to hold it against Smart that AB had already been on an all defensive team at that age when Smart has only had his rookie and sophomore seasons to do so

Side note: When's the last time someone was on an all defensive team in their rookie or sophomore season? I don't see any in the past 10 years (which is as far as I looked)

Edit: and 11 people made the all-defensive teams the year Bradley first made it? What the [heck] happened that year?
I'm bitter.

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Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2016, 07:34:13 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

That's the main point if anyone is going to argue about us missing on a #6 pick. Who was taken afterwards that is clearly better? Nobody imo. Randle has his limitations but puts up numbers on a bad team. Vonleh, Stauskas, McDermott and Exum look like busts, Gordon and Lavine are ok but not anywhere near a star. We were not in position to get Embiid sadly, and we missed out on Nurkic who was taken right before Young, but there is nobody taken after Smart that you can strongly argue we missed on.

We should have traded up a spot or two to get Nurkic instead of James Young though, but what can you do, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes. I think this is an unappreciated point. TPs.
who cares?

Evaluate the player, not the draft position. Unless we are talking about Ainge's drafting abilities, which does not appear to be the crux of this debate.

Um. Those guys were talking about draft position as a side conversation and I commented on it. Sometimes threads have minor digressions. It's a thing that happens.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2016, 07:42:04 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Yeah, if Smart is still doing the same thing at year 4. Then he is what he is at that point. Sucks that he wouldn't have gone 6th in hindsight. But what can you do? We should be used to this by now. Only thing we can do is retain him or send him packing. Im in favor of keeping him as long as he keeps doing the things hes been doing recently on offense which is to let other guys finish the plays. Then we draft Lonzo Ball and develop him as our PG of the future.

Smart was a good pick at #6.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2016, 08:16:19 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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As far as Smart being the sixth pick, there's only two or three guys who went behind him that you can even argue are better than Smart and there's definitely at least one guy who went before him, Dante Exum, who is clearly worse.

Mike

That's the main point if anyone is going to argue about us missing on a #6 pick. Who was taken afterwards that is clearly better? Nobody imo. Randle has his limitations but puts up numbers on a bad team. Vonleh, Stauskas, McDermott and Exum look like busts, Gordon and Lavine are ok but not anywhere near a star. We were not in position to get Embiid sadly, and we missed out on Nurkic who was taken right before Young, but there is nobody taken after Smart that you can strongly argue we missed on.

We should have traded up a spot or two to get Nurkic instead of James Young though, but what can you do, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes. I think this is an unappreciated point. TPs.
who cares?

Evaluate the player, not the draft position. Unless we are talking about Ainge's drafting abilities, which does not appear to be the crux of this debate.

Um. Those guys were talking about draft position as a side conversation and I commented on it. Sometimes threads have minor digressions. It's a thing that happens.
I understand that side conversations happen.

Point remains the same. Often when discussing a guy like Marcus Smart, the fact that he was a #6 draft pick often colors peoples opinions. Some look at it and assume that he must have some hidden star potential locked in there somewhere and others look at it and fail to see most of the good in Marcus because the expectations were so high.

The discussion of Smarts draft position is fine and I didnt mean to dismiss it, but its entirely irrelevant when discussing Marcus Smarts skills, potential and future with the team.

I commented on a string of posts which were in response to Eja writing that Smart was a dissapointment as the #6 pick. My post should have been directly in response to Eja, but I attached it to this thread instead.

Re: Don't give up on Smart
« Reply #117 on: December 28, 2016, 08:33:30 PM »

Offline moiso

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This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off.
There literally is a genetic lottery?
http://archive.boston.com/lifestyle/articles/2011/07/19/literally_the_most_misused_word/
Nice!