Don't give up on Smart

[mctyson]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

[D Dub]

Lots of shade for Marcus around here.   I, for one, think he gets an bad rap for his poor shooting %.  Often, when he takes an 'bad shot' it's when our p/r hasn't worked or the defense hasn't collapsed-- and Marcus ends up with the ball on a late shot clock.  Has to put it up. 

Doesn't it make some sense though?   If he's the fourth or fifth option on the floor, and other options don't materialize---he ends up in the 'safety valve' position on the perimeter where he is forced to jack up some out-of-rhythm ugly 3pt attempts with the clock winding down.   It's a direct result of only having one teammate who can create for himself.   There is a reason why we lead the league in assists!  Brad knows how best to use his guys.   But when our ball movement is stifled; our offense struggles and mostly it's Smart in the spot to make nothing from something.   

When he gets to shoot in rhythm or when the game is on the line--he looks pretty solid. There is absolutely no reason to believe he's plateaued.

[dreamgreen]

The problem for Smart right now is the game is geared for guards who can shoot and he can't. I like a lot of the things he does and I'll admit he is clutch when needed. The fact he is taking less 3's is nice to see and his PG skills have stated to show. Basically a good player but not all-star level.

[Eja117]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

[Vermont Green]

Players come out so young now.  Smart was not a freshman but still really young.  We are looking ahead to the final year of his contract and still not sure what he is as a player.  Same for Noel and many other players.  It is tough.  I like Smart but how can a team keep all these young players on the roster while still being competitive.  The Rookie Contract is supposed to buy you enough time to know what you have.  That is often not the case.

The Celtics have Jackson, Mickey, Brown, Rozier along with Zizic and Yabusele who should all be in the minor leagues (if there was one).  Plus Smart and Olynyk to some degree are still developing.  It is really hard for teams when they have to draft these players so early in their careers.  Do we really know what we have (or don't have) with any of these players at this point?  I think it is probably clearest with Smart what we have. 

As for Smart, I remain high on him.  I hope he sticks around but I would also not be opposed to trading him in a good deal.  But we are not going to be able to keep all these players.

[BitterJim]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

Do Isaiah Thomas, Kyle Lowry, and Dwyane Wade also have weight problems?  Because they certainly don't look like Bradley, either.

(Isaiah is listed as 5 pounds heavier than Bradley despite Bradley being 5 inches taller)

[mctyson]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

Human beings aren't all built the same.  Sorry that Marcus Smart doesn't look like Avery Bradley, and this upsets you.  That in no way justifies your opinion that he has a weight problem.

[CelticGuardian]

You Cant measure Smarts contribution to this team by the Score Card or the 3 Ball percentage.. He is much more than that, always has been always will be..  He is Great as is, Can his shooting improve, sure.. but he is one of only a handful of players in the league who can effect winning despite the 1 for X...  Successful teams need guys like that to be successful.

Tell me why we won that Knicks game, what did Smart do at the end there to put it away? Let's say he goes 0 for X again that game. Are we winning this game?

Not sure what your argument is.

If Smart had missed 5 more shots thus resulting in us scoring ~10 less points, then yes we probably lose the game.

The point is that Smart makes winning plays and helps the team shot-making aside.

Smart took 2 bigtime charges and ran some of our best offense the whole game out of the post. He also hit a clutch shot, which he has seemingly dont a lot of in his career shooting percentages aside.

As I see it, the point is this. Smart is terrible at shooting and somehow thinks hes good. He will have games where he has a sub 20 fg%. In those games his ability to be a beast defensively, run the offense fairly well from the post or pick and roll, and make bigtime clutch plays and shots make it so he still helps the team or at least mitigates the negative impact his shooting has.

When he plays within himself and makes his shots he can be incredibly valuable and help the team immensely.

Well since you didn't know, I'm glad you were Smart enough.

Also didn't he hit the dagger three? Look man, Knicks had 3 guys scoring in the 20s, Smart HAD to hit some shots for us to win. Basketball isn't all putbacks and loose ball dives. Sometimes you gotta put the ball inside the hoop, you know to score and whatnot.

That point is obvious so I wasnt sure if you really felt the need to point it out.

Obviously when Smart hits shots hes better than when he doesnt. However, that doesnt mean he cant help the team win and be valuable when he doesnt hit shots.

Also, Smart left the game with 4:24 to go, up 11. We were outscored 14-3 He returns to the game with a minute left, nails a 3, Bradley steal, Horford block, game over.

Again, no one is arguing that 5-9 Smart is worse than 1-9 Smart. That point is asinine and irrelevant, the point is that 1-9 Smart can still be helpful to the team so give him patience and if he eventually wisens up on shot selection and adds a little savvy he can consistently be the weapon we saw on Christmas.

Smart's a good role player. I think even fans of opposing teams are starting to notice. He's great at one end of the floor, is our second best point guard plus he can light a fire under the team's butts during timeouts, who can't appreciate that? However, I think we can both agree that 1 for 9 Smart would not have been helpful in a high scoring game like this.

I think this is where the disagreement is.  I would say that he could still be helpful in that game if shooting poorly (especially since he would presumably have taken fewer shots if he wasn't making any).  Obviously he wouldn't have been as helpful, but I'd still rather have him out there than Rozier

C's have a stretch of games where they play a slew of olayoff caliber teams.

If they win any of those games with Smart not making 40% of his shots and he's playing 27+ mins, I'll give you a TP for every win.

I'll take that bet gladly, and give you a TP for every loss where Smart makes less than 40% of his shots and plays 27+ minutes (I think settling up at the end of the stretch would be easiest, since there's no way I'll remember after each game).  Does the next 20 games sound good?

I feel good about my chances, though, since we are 10-3 during games fitting that criteria this year (Source Note: AB, Rozier, and IT are also listed in this, sorting by name makes it easier to read)

Great, cool.

The stipulation is that it has to be against playoff teams. Not lottery bound teams, or teams middling around .500. The next 20 sounds a bit much. I'll reduce it to 4 key games.

So right off the bat,  tonight against the Grizz. The Cavs game coming up. Then the game against Utah, and lastly against Toronto. These are games that matter to us, and what better opportunity for Marcus to prove that his offense is not needed for us to get quality wins.

I think that reduces it a bit too much - we should only be favored in the Jazz game. Teams over .500 (so top 5 in each conference plus the grizzlies and Jazz as you mentioned) would make more sense to me (and leave us with 9 of the next 20 games, although I think we should look at the teams' records after the group of games, since the Knicks are over .500 right now and I doubt that lasts)

I see what you mean. But this Celtics season, games like those 4 are important to me. Let's us know truly where we are at.

If Smart truly is an untouchable keeper. I need him to show exactly that against teams at our level or better. I don't care that he can help us beat the Sixers or a struggling team trying to reach .500.  Last night, injuries to the Grizz should offer context but he shot 33% and 50% from deep in 28 mins,  which is pushing it because for Marcus that's efficient as hell lol but still TP for you sir. 

[Eja117]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

Human beings aren't all built the same.  Sorry that Marcus Smart doesn't look like Avery Bradley, and this upsets you.  That in no way justifies your opinion that he has a weight problem.

He's also nowhere near as fast offensively and doesn't have as much stamina either. 

[BitterJim]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

Human beings aren't all built the same.  Sorry that Marcus Smart doesn't look like Avery Bradley, and this upsets you.  That in no way justifies your opinion that he has a weight problem.

He's also nowhere near as fast offensively and doesn't have as much stamina either.

And Bradley is nowhere near as strong as him.  They're different players, and play different ways.  Smart would be awful at playing exactly like AB does and AB would be awful at playing exactly like Smart does.  That doesn't mean that Smart is fat any more than it means that Bradley is weak

[Eja117]

He's basically Sullinger 2.0 with a lot more in game hustle. I certainly wouldn't give up on him, but this isn't what I signed up for with the 6th pick and at some point you just don't offer the kind of contract he's looking for.

Same thing with KO.

How is he anything like sullinger?

Similar hair?

They both have good nights and bad and show some talent and after years are still not really as good as they are supposed to be. Weight problems. Just not achieving what we legitimately hoped for.

What?

Look at Avery Bradley. That's what a guard that is in good NBA shape looks like. Look at Smart. He doesn't.

Human beings aren't all built the same.  Sorry that Marcus Smart doesn't look like Avery Bradley, and this upsets you.  That in no way justifies your opinion that he has a weight problem.

He's also nowhere near as fast offensively and doesn't have as much stamina either.

And Bradley is nowhere near as strong as him.  They're different players, and play different ways.  Smart would be awful at playing exactly like AB does and AB would be awful at playing exactly like Smart does.  That doesn't mean that Smart is fat any more than it means that Bradley is weak

Who looked stronger last night when Avery was our best inside big? 
I get that Smart plays more forward in the small ball lineups and has even been known to cover Milsap in a tough spot.  But this whole thing where Smart and Avery are comparable athletes because they have different body types and different playing styles is like comparing Ashley Graham to Adrianna Lima or Gisele. It's nice and all and I like Ashley Graham, but there is no comparing them.
The problem is Smart is a guard. Not a forward. He's not as athletic as pre injury prime Tony Allen. That's a problem.

There's a reason people are making Derek Fisher comparisons or Lindsey Hunter comparisons for Smart.

[D Dub]

This is silly.  Marcus is in the NBA quite literally, because he's a genetic lottery winner.

He's not, by any measure, out of shape. 

He'd probably hold his own in an Olympic decathlon. 

To carry that much strength on a 6'4" frame --and still be able to run all day & beat your opponents to key spots-- is quite frankly absurd. 

the sully comp couldn't be further off. 

[manl_lui]

I don't want to start another Marcus thread so I'll keep it in here. Marcus is definitely a leader on and off the court. We haven't seen him complain about minutes...yet? and everything he has done this season just shows his leadership on the court

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724797/nba-mics-offer-glimpse-into-marcus-smarts-vocal-presence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USwV2zrQNp4&t=0s

actually NBA posted this video like 3 times since Christmas, I think everyone else is starting to notice Marcus' leadership, and that goes far beyond his offense.

[SHAQATTACK]

IT is a scorer and no fear of the moment .  But when the game is hanging on ONE play that will swing the whole enchilada......who shows up more times than not .....to give up his body , make a critical stop or steal , tip , or rebound .   More times than not it's Smart who come though with a clutch play that alters the chances Celtics win.

No accident he is on the court at very end orf every game.

[CelticGuardian]

I don't want to start another Marcus thread so I'll keep it in here. Marcus is definitely a leader on and off the court. We haven't seen him complain about minutes...yet? and everything he has done this season just shows his leadership on the court

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4724797/nba-mics-offer-glimpse-into-marcus-smarts-vocal-presence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USwV2zrQNp4&t=0s

actually NBA posted this video like 3 times since Christmas, I think everyone else is starting to notice Marcus' leadership, and that goes far beyond his offense.

To be fair, he always got minutes (27 mpg since rookie year) simple because his defense was just that good out of the box. He's a difference maker, not THE difference maker but he is one. Super glad he's on our team. Fans of opposing teams just pull their hair out when Marcus kills their possession, it's quite enjoyable.