Horford is the 3rd best big man in the league

[Moranis]

As for this thread.  No Horford is not.  He wasn't even the best big man in Atlanta.  Milsap was and still is better. 

[PhoSita]

As for this thread.  No Horford is not.  He wasn't even the best big man in Atlanta.  Milsap was and still is better.

I like Millsap a lot but I'd rather have Horford, especially long term.

Seems to me people are getting too hung up on the boxscore and how Horford differs from their expectations for what a highly paid big man should be.

He does everything. He's a leader. He spreads the floor, facilitates, and defends at a high level. He can execute basically anything Brad wants him to execute.

Don't get hung up on how different he is than your ideal big man. Focus on this: he is a really, really good basketball player.

Especially in today's league, really good basketball players are more valuable than elite role players, which is what the Deandre Jordan's and hassan Whitesides of the world are.

[Moranis]

As for this thread.  No Horford is not.  He wasn't even the best big man in Atlanta.  Milsap was and still is better.

I like Millsap a lot but I'd rather have Horford, especially long term.

Last year in Atlanta, Millsap was better than Horford by virtually every metric.  Scored more on a similar TS%.  Rebounded more with a higher rate.  Assisted more on a slightly lower rate.  Blocked more shots, generated more steals, had a higher PER, more win shares, etc.  Millsap turned the ball over more.  That is about it.  And the numbers have all been trending in Millsap's direction for years i.e. getting closer together until Millsap passed him up and then started extending the lead.  Now in Boston Horford has greatly improved his AST% and APG and also bumped up his BLK% and BPG, to make it a closer statistically, but I still think Atlanta was a better gauge since they were in the same system.

[PhoSita]

Again, I think Horfords game will age much better. I also don't think the numbers really did justice to what Horford meant to that Hawks team on both ends.

Al is the sort of player who helps other players put up better numbers. He is never going to be the one putting up the most impressive numbers night in night out.

But to me,  17 pts 7 rebounds 6 assists 2 blocks 1 steal is a pretty great stat line anyhow, and we've seen Al put up games like that pretty frequently here in Boston.

[action781]

I find the subject of this thread to be misleading.  I was expecting some article or stats that cite this.   

But I guess in today's world facts are whatever we want them to be so maybe it's fine.

[PhoSita]

I find the subject of this thread to be misleading.  I was expecting some article or stats that cite this.   

But I guess in today's world facts are whatever we want them to be so maybe it's fine.

I mean, there isn't a statistic out there that definitively ranks players at specific positions. It is inherently a subjective discussion.

[Moranis]

I find the subject of this thread to be misleading.  I was expecting some article or stats that cite this.   

But I guess in today's world facts are whatever we want them to be so maybe it's fine.

I mean, there isn't a statistic out there that definitively ranks players at specific positions. It is inherently a subjective discussion.

It is but you can you use statistics to support your position.  I mean you can say he is top 5 in points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, etc.  Well you can't say that with Horford, but if those were his stats you could. 

[walker834]

stat stuffing is misleading like i was saying though.   horford is a capable rebounder who could rebound more if he was under the basket.   Overall he is rated the 3rd best big man statistically.  Behind Davis and Kevin Love.  Cousins is 4th. I rate Cousins a bit better but even  he has his issues.  An argument could be made that Horford is actually better.  We are seeing that in the win column now as well since he and IT have had some time to gel.

Stats are stats for that reason though. They are misleading.  Horford is just as good a rebounder as some of these other guys, he's just expanded his game and is doing other things at other points in the game.

Career wise his rebound numbers show that as well.  He's had big rebounding years.  As his game has developed he's just playing away from the basket more which is good for guys like IT as well.

[walker834]

Kevin Love is kind of the same to me.  He's still rebounding but isn't scoring as much as he used to because he's on a team with Lebron and Kyrie.  I don't think he should be penalized for being unselfish.  If anything that's a good thing.

It's like saying Russell wasn't as good as some other big men because he didn't score 30 ppg. 

Horford isn't in that class.  I think davis and guys like Cousins are  more Russell and Wilt but todays nba standards but Robert Parish was always kind of overlooked compared to Kareem but when he was still a top 5 big man easily in the nba.  He was playing with Mchale and Bird.

PArish would average 15-20 ppg and 9 to 10 boards and a block.  Much like Kevin Love is now.  Love isn't a shot blocker but he can shoot with range.  Different players but Love shouldn't be knocked because of that. 

Horford is the same to me for different reasons.

[walker834]

HOrford's career stats are very comparable to Parish.

14.5 ppg, 9.1 boards, 1.5 blocks, 1.5 assists  .537 fg percentage, .721 ft percentage

14.4 ppg  8.8 boards, 1.2 blocks, 2.8 assists  .533 fg percentage, .747 ft percentage

The nba is different now where Horford is playing away from the basket a bit more.  Their stats are nearly  identical. Parish also rebounded less later in his career.

Parishw as always around the 3rd best big man in the league.  He didn't get as much fanfare because of guys like Kareem and others like Moses.

[Moranis]

stat stuffing is misleading like i was saying though.   horford is a capable rebounder who could rebound more if he was under the basket.   Overall he is rated the 3rd best big man statistically.  Behind Davis and Kevin Love.  Cousins is 4th. I rate Cousins a bit better but even  he has his issues.  An argument could be made that Horford is actually better.  We are seeing that in the win column now as well since he and IT have had some time to gel.

Stats are stats for that reason though. They are misleading.  Horford is just as good a rebounder as some of these other guys, he's just expanded his game and is doing other things at other points in the game.

Career wise his rebound numbers show that as well.  He's had big rebounding years.  As his game has developed he's just playing away from the basket more which is good for guys like IT as well.

Horford quite simply isn't a very good rebounder and he hasn't been for awhile.  You don't need stats to tell you that, all you have to do is watch him play, of course the stats do also tell you that.

[walker834]

With IT we have Horford shooting 3's and spreading the floor.  He's a good rebounder he's just playing outside more.  He is being knocked because he is doing what he is being asked to do.  He's doing it well too. His 3 pt shooting have jumped.  His assists have jumped.  HIs blocks have jumped so in other words defensively he is still a presence.  On offense he is outside more.

If that costs him a rebound or so a game where he's getting 3 more assists and shooting the 3 and getting a block more a game he's actually better.

That's basically what is going on.  He is getting a rebound or 2 less.  But is +2 in assists, +1 in blocks, and +1 in 3's a game. His percentages haven't suffered.

As long as he is down low at the right times and getting offensive rebounds and playing inside it's about maximizing him in teh right spots.  His rebounds might even go back up as the season goes.

[KGs Knee]

I find the subject of this thread to be misleading.  I was expecting some article or stats that cite this.   

But I guess in today's world facts are whatever we want them to be so maybe it's fine.

I mean, there isn't a statistic out there that definitively ranks players at specific positions. It is inherently a subjective discussion.

It is but you can you use statistics to support your position.  I mean you can say he is top 5 in points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, etc.  Well you can't say that with Horford, but if those were his stats you could. 

So basically, you just go around making claims to suit your narrative without actually backing them up, but then go and claim it's everyone else that is doing it.  That's too funny.

Here's some stats (among NBA centers) on Horford for you:

#1 in assists per game - http://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=AST&dir=-1

#4 in blocks per game - http://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=BLK&dir=-1

#8 in points per game - http://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PTS&dir=-1

[walker834]

His turnovers and efficiency have to be near the top as well.  IT is our primary scorer right now. He's playing within the team and allowing and even helping other players to score and do other things like Bradley as well. 

Yet people overrated guys like Okafor, Towns, Wiggins when wiggins is so inefficient, scores alot but doesnt do a whole lot else. Towns is getting there out of any of those guys but not in Horford's class. Potential is one thing. But they aren't that.

Millsapp also isn't in Horford's class. He's an active rebounder and scorer but does not do all the things horford does.  Same with Blake.  Blake has his passing.  Millsap might blcok some  shots and do other things.  Millsap and Blake are more comparable to each other though than Horford.  They are a tier below Love and Horford at this point.

Gasol is fairly close to Horford this year but not quite as good.  Myles Turner is having an excellent year but not on that level.  More close to those other guys and Towns.

As far as tiers I'd say

Davis
Cousins- some questions though

Horford
Love

Gasol

Millsap
Blake
Towns
Jordan
Whiteside
Turner
etc..

Okafor and Noel are somewhere way down here.  But Noel probably has the ability to be the better all around.  Still so young and hard to say though.

[Ilikesports17]

His turnovers and efficiency have to be near the top as well.  IT is our primary scorer right now. He's playing within the team and allowing and even helping other players to score and do other things like Bradley as well. 

Yet people overrated guys like Okafor, Towns, Wiggins when wiggins is so inefficient, scores alot but doesnt do a whole lot else. Towns is getting there out of any of those guys but not in Horford's class. Potential is one thing. But they aren't that.

Millsapp also isn't in Horford's class. He's an active rebounder and scorer but does not do all the things horford does.  Same with Blake.  Blake has his passing.  Millsap might blcok some  shots and do other things.  Millsap and Blake are more comparable to each other though than Horford.  They are a tier below Love and Horford at this point.

Gasol is fairly close to Horford this year but not quite as good.  Myles Turner is having an excellent year but not on that level.  More close to those other guys and Towns.

As far as tiers I'd say

Davis
Cousins- some questions though

Horford
Love

Gasol

Millsap
Blake
Towns
Jordan
Whiteside
Turner
etc..

Okafor and Noel are somewhere way down here.  But Noel probably has the ability to be the better all around.  Still so young and hard to say though.

where is Draymond?