36.7 % , 29.0 % , 62.5 %

[Moranis]

I'd rather Smart drive when he is open for three.  Use the space you've been given to try and draw a foul and get a close shot.  Just because you are open doesn't mean you have to shoot or pass.  you can keep a defense honest by driving.  Smart is a decent driver and that is an area I think he could make great strides in and actually you know improve. 

I also get that Boston is a team that lives and dies by the three, but Boston just isn't good enough to play that style of play.  I mean even the Warriors have "died" by the three and they have 3 of the best pure shooters in NBA history on their team.  It just isn't a strategy conducive to winning titles (unless you have the Warriors collection of talent).  I mean Boston has 5 players shooting more than 4 three's a game, which isn't that atypical until you look at the percentages.  Bradley is the only one above 40% (though Crowder is close) and Thomas and Smart are both below 33.3% (which is the point when the three really isn't worth it, though Thomas is right at that line).   Per 36, Boston has 8 players at more than 4 three attempts and 2 more above 3.5 attempts per 36.  Of those 10 players only Jerekbo and Bradley are above 40% (Crowder is still close, ha).  KO, Rozier, and Young, join Thomas and Smart at under 33.3%. 

The three point shot isn't a strategy that should be used by a team that doesn't have elite shooters, especially one that is supposed to be a talented team in the mix for the 2 seed. 

[Moranis]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

Hey, I know another Payton who can't shoot 3's.  Gary Payton. 

All-rookie second team. 
Scored 7,9,and 13 ppg respectively in his first 3 seasons.
Career 31% 3pt shooter
~ 4 rebounds and 7 assists per game
shot 31% on 4.6 3pt attempts while winning DPOY (only PG ever)

Remind you of anyone?

the year Payton won DPOY he shot 32.8% from three on 3.7 attempts but was 53.2% from 2, scoring 19.3 p, 7.5 a, 4.2 r, 2.9 s all while leading his team to 64 wins and the NBA Finals.

[celtics2030]

himself

Gary shot 45% 45.5% and 50% from the field, that means he can ball around the hoop, he can finish, he is athletic , good around the rim

Marcus Smart , has he even shot over 40% yet?

in Comparison

Elfrid Payton is shooting 46% from the field this year.


Nobody is out here to to defend or destroy him. The facts are facts, and like I said people get super defensive. I just defend the facts.

[BitterJim]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

No because you say that he shoots 2 pointers at a decent clip. You might be wrong because Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting , so that stat might include those.

This is a good point.  Let's look at shooting percentages for the two of them by distance, to get an idea of who shoots better:

Code: [Select]

Distance (ft)       0-3     3-10     10-16    16<3    3P
Marcus Smart       45.5%   46.9%    46.2%    33.3%   29.0%
Elfrid Payton      62.4%   36.2%    38.1%    39.3%   24.6%

If you don't count "layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting", then Payton is shooting well under 40% for the year, while Smart's shooting drops by a couple of percentage points.  Payton's FG% is buoyed by the number of shots he takes close to the rim (41.6% of all his shots are within 3 feet, vs 15.5% for Smart), but he's actually a worse "shooter" than Smart for every distance but from 16ft to the 3 point line

[celtics2030]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

No because you say that he shoots 2 pointers at a decent clip. You might be wrong because Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting , so that stat might include those.

This is a good point.  Let's look at shooting percentages for the two of them by distance, to get an idea of who shoots better:

Code: [Select]

Distance (ft)       0-3     3-10     10-16    16<3    3P
Marcus Smart       45.5%   46.9%    46.2%    33.3%   29.0%
Elfrid Payton      62.4%   36.2%    38.1%    39.3%   24.6%

If you don't count "layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting", then Payton is shooting well under 40% for the year, while Smart's shooting drops by a couple of percentage points.  Payton's FG% is buoyed by the number of shots he takes close to the rim (41.6% of all his shots are within 3 feet, vs 15.5% for Smart), but he's actually a worse "shooter" than Smart for every distance but from 16ft to the 3 point line

Bitter Jim , first off, when I mentioned Payton i said it sarcastically, because I am known for being a Payton fan.

The biggest thing I have been saying has actually been confirmed by you.

I dont care much about the stat, but when someone tries to analyze it, they should include what you included.

I was not comparing. The point I make is that Smart cannot do much of anything else in the department, he cannot finish very good , he doesnt drive well, his handle is not the greatest ,his vision is decent.

If you want to compare, then its simple, I just see with my two eyes, who is a better offensive player , and i think Elfrid is just a better offensive player, better point guard, better slasher, finisher , passer, transition, all of that.

Do I think he is a better SHOOTER?

No they both suck lol, although statistically yes, one would think Smart is a better shooter.

[PickNRoll]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

Hey, I know another Payton who can't shoot 3's.  Gary Payton. 

All-rookie second team. 
Scored 7,9,and 13 ppg respectively in his first 3 seasons.
Career 31% 3pt shooter
~ 4 rebounds and 7 assists per game
shot 31% on 4.6 3pt attempts while winning DPOY (only PG ever)

Remind you of anyone?

the year Payton won DPOY he shot 32.8% from three on 3.7 attempts but was 53.2% from 2, scoring 19.3 p, 7.5 a, 4.2 r, 2.9 s all while leading his team to 64 wins and the NBA Finals.

You're right, he won it in 96, not 97.  Same difference.  Stats are basically the same.  He did that 7 years into his career. 

My point is that Payton wasn't a good 3pt shooter.  He wasn't an explosive scorer when he entered the league.  He was a fantastic defender, above average rebounder, savvy back-to-the-basket game, ballhawk.  Nobody worried about his 31% 3 point shooting.

[celticsclay]

These threads are seriously awful. I get that everyone can talk about what they want, but look at this thread and it is just the same as any other thread discussing Marcus Smart and his shooting. Some people say he stinks and will never be more than a bench player. Other people submit historical players with similarities in their trajectories that were bad shooters (artest, billups, payton)  Other people attack those players. People come back with more details. Nobody changes their opinion. People attack those details.

Unless his shooting percentages significantly improves this is how every single one of these threads is going to go.

I honestly suggest we create an official marcus smart shooting thread and just have the endless debate happen there (or we just give it a rest until something changes eg shooting, contract, trade, different role.)

[celtics2030]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

Hey, I know another Payton who can't shoot 3's.  Gary Payton. 

All-rookie second team. 
Scored 7,9,and 13 ppg respectively in his first 3 seasons.
Career 31% 3pt shooter
~ 4 rebounds and 7 assists per game
shot 31% on 4.6 3pt attempts while winning DPOY (only PG ever)

Remind you of anyone?

the year Payton won DPOY he shot 32.8% from three on 3.7 attempts but was 53.2% from 2, scoring 19.3 p, 7.5 a, 4.2 r, 2.9 s all while leading his team to 64 wins and the NBA Finals.

You're right, he won it in 96, not 97.  Same difference.  Stats are basically the same.  He did that 7 years into his career. 

My point is that Payton wasn't a good 3pt shooter.  He wasn't an explosive scorer when he entered the league.  He was a fantastic defender, above average rebounder, savvy back-to-the-basket game, ballhawk.  Nobody worried about his 31% 3 point shooting.

But he never shot under 45% in those years and shot 49% one year during that as well. Meaning one of two things...he can shoot the midrange or he could get to the bucket and finish. Big difference in not caring about the 3 ball when one guy is shooting 36.7 percent and the other averaging 47%

[PickNRoll]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

No because you say that he shoots 2 pointers at a decent clip. You might be wrong because Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting , so that stat might include those.

This is a good point.  Let's look at shooting percentages for the two of them by distance, to get an idea of who shoots better:

Code: [Select]

Distance (ft)       0-3     3-10     10-16    16<3    3P
Marcus Smart       45.5%   46.9%    46.2%    33.3%   29.0%
Elfrid Payton      62.4%   36.2%    38.1%    39.3%   24.6%

If you don't count "layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting", then Payton is shooting well under 40% for the year, while Smart's shooting drops by a couple of percentage points.  Payton's FG% is buoyed by the number of shots he takes close to the rim (41.6% of all his shots are within 3 feet, vs 15.5% for Smart), but he's actually a worse "shooter" than Smart for every distance but from 16ft to the 3 point line

How can you not count layups and putbacks?  This isn't a game of HORSE.  Payton's value is almost entirely 10 feet and in.  Ignoring his best shots to see who's a "better shooter" in a vaccuum doesn't have any meaning.

[celtics2030]

These threads are seriously awful. I get that everyone can talk about what they want, but look at this thread and it is just the same as any other thread discussing Marcus Smart and his shooting. Some people say he stinks and will never be more than a bench player. Other people submit historical players with similarities in their trajectories that were bad shooters (artest, billups, payton)  Other people attack those players. People come back with more details. Nobody changes their opinion. People attack those details.

Unless his shooting percentages significantly improves this is how every single one of these threads is going to go.




All the people who thought Bill Walker or JR Giddens would be staples here have now left due to embarrassment. This is what forums are all about. The weak end up leaving.
I honestly suggest we create an official marcus smart shooting thread and just have the endless debate happen there (or we just give it a rest until something changes eg shooting, contract, trade, different role.)

your making up things. Nobody said he "Stinks". His incapabilities are being questioned, and what he may or may not be able to do. what else can we do on these boards.

[celtics2030]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

No because you say that he shoots 2 pointers at a decent clip. You might be wrong because Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting , so that stat might include those.

This is a good point.  Let's look at shooting percentages for the two of them by distance, to get an idea of who shoots better:

Code: [Select]

Distance (ft)       0-3     3-10     10-16    16<3    3P
Marcus Smart       45.5%   46.9%    46.2%    33.3%   29.0%
Elfrid Payton      62.4%   36.2%    38.1%    39.3%   24.6%

If you don't count "layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting", then Payton is shooting well under 40% for the year, while Smart's shooting drops by a couple of percentage points.  Payton's FG% is buoyed by the number of shots he takes close to the rim (41.6% of all his shots are within 3 feet, vs 15.5% for Smart), but he's actually a worse "shooter" than Smart for every distance but from 16ft to the 3 point line

How can you not count layups and putbacks?  This isn't a game of HORSE.  Payton's value is almost entirely 10 feet and in.  Ignoring his best shots to see who's a "better shooter" in a vaccuum doesn't have any meaning.

It does, when you factor the frequency of those shots taken. It gives you an idea of what a player can or cannot do , what type of shot he cannot get off. Many will argue the coach is telling what to do or not to do, but the reality is a player is in charge of what areas he can excell in on the court, or else he just is not that good.

[MBunge]

himself

Gary shot 45% 45.5% and 50% from the field, that means he can ball around the hoop, he can finish, he is athletic , good around the rim

Marcus Smart , has he even shot over 40% yet?

in Comparison

Elfrid Payton is shooting 46% from the field this year.


Nobody is out here to to defend or destroy him. The facts are facts, and like I said people get super defensive. I just defend the facts.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FACTS.

Smart's overall shooting percentage is hurt because he's shooting more threes.  Payton is actually a WORSE three point shooter than Smart, but he's talking over 50% fewer shots from behind the arc.  And as BitterJim points out, Payton is actually shooting WORSE than Smart from multiple areas of the court but his percentage is elevated by being a lot better on layups and other close in shots.

So, Payton might be a better finisher/penetrator but he actually looks like a worse shooter than Smart.  But even that gets back to the same question of how they're being used in the game.  The last three games with IT out and Smart playing the point almost exclusively, he's shooting 44% from the field.  That's still nothing to write home about but is far from a disaster who is hurting his team.

Mike

[BitterJim]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

No because you say that he shoots 2 pointers at a decent clip. You might be wrong because Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting , so that stat might include those.

This is a good point.  Let's look at shooting percentages for the two of them by distance, to get an idea of who shoots better:

Code: [Select]

Distance (ft)       0-3     3-10     10-16    16<3    3P
Marcus Smart       45.5%   46.9%    46.2%    33.3%   29.0%
Elfrid Payton      62.4%   36.2%    38.1%    39.3%   24.6%

If you don't count "layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting", then Payton is shooting well under 40% for the year, while Smart's shooting drops by a couple of percentage points.  Payton's FG% is buoyed by the number of shots he takes close to the rim (41.6% of all his shots are within 3 feet, vs 15.5% for Smart), but he's actually a worse "shooter" than Smart for every distance but from 16ft to the 3 point line

How can you not count layups and putbacks?  This isn't a game of HORSE.  Payton's value is almost entirely 10 feet and in.  Ignoring his best shots to see who's a "better shooter" in a vaccuum doesn't have any meaning.

Because:

Im not going to count layups and putbacks or fast break layups as shooting

Was in the comment I was replying to (and he's right, within 3 feet is really "finishing" not "shooting".  Smart is a better "shooter" because he's better at actually shooting, while Payton is a better "finisher" and overall more efficient scorer because of it)

Ex: Clint Capela has made 62.8% of his shots this year vs. 48.1% for Steph Curry, but Curry is obviously the better shooter even though Capela makes a higher % of his shots (Note: I am neither saying that Elfrid Payton is Clint Capela nor that Marcus Smart is Steph Curry.  This is just an illustrative example of how making a higher % of your overall shots does not necessarily mean you are a better shooter)

[PickNRoll]

Elfrid Payton shoots 52% from 2.....so hes better

You should know better , how many of those 2's for Smart are put backs or layups? Why wont you look at his shooting outside of say 7 feet? Maybe then your point would have value 

And Payton is actually shooting threes WORSE than Smart.  The different is that Smart is taking over twice as many per game.  Maybe those are things you should consider?

Mike

Hey, I know another Payton who can't shoot 3's.  Gary Payton. 

All-rookie second team. 
Scored 7,9,and 13 ppg respectively in his first 3 seasons.
Career 31% 3pt shooter
~ 4 rebounds and 7 assists per game
shot 31% on 4.6 3pt attempts while winning DPOY (only PG ever)

Remind you of anyone?

the year Payton won DPOY he shot 32.8% from three on 3.7 attempts but was 53.2% from 2, scoring 19.3 p, 7.5 a, 4.2 r, 2.9 s all while leading his team to 64 wins and the NBA Finals.

You're right, he won it in 96, not 97.  Same difference.  Stats are basically the same.  He did that 7 years into his career. 

My point is that Payton wasn't a good 3pt shooter.  He wasn't an explosive scorer when he entered the league.  He was a fantastic defender, above average rebounder, savvy back-to-the-basket game, ballhawk.  Nobody worried about his 31% 3 point shooting.

But he never shot under 45% in those years and shot 49% one year during that as well. Meaning one of two things...he can shoot the midrange or he could get to the bucket and finish. Big difference in not caring about the 3 ball when one guy is shooting 36.7 percent and the other averaging 47%

Payton could definitely get to the bucket and finish better than Marcus.  Nobody would argue that.  There are similarities in their style and trajectory tho.  One of the reasons Smart's FG% is so low is because half of all his FG attempts are 3's.  If you look at Paytons eFG over his first few years, again similar to Marcus.

Should player X keep taking 3's?  Well the league average points per possession is probably a touch over 1.  So, you need to get it up above 33%.  What if player X is a good 2pt shooter?  Doesn't matter, not relevant to the question. Smart is better off continuing to shoot and hopefully he picks up those % points he needs.

[wayupnorth]

Again, for the people critical ofor Brad's playing of Smart...Do you really think you know better than Brad on how to utilize him?

Dude is 23 years old and already on of the best defenders in the game, that plays with all heart, passion and grit.

He doesn't shoot 35% from three point land. Boo Hoo.

It sucks reading all the negativity surrounding him here, and look forward to the day when all the detractors change their tune.

It reads like many of you here would rather have Jamal Crawford.

Do I think I know more than Stevens about basketball or Smarts game? No. But that doesnt mean that people are wrong about how Stevens is usung Smart. 2.25 years of allowing one of the worst shooters in league history to shoot at will hasnt made Smart a better shooter and has not had a positive impact for the teams offense. Its time to limit his shots.

It seems as though Brad disagrees, and I have go with Brad's call.

It entertains me you think you know how to use Smart more effectively than Brad.