$26 million man

[Moranis]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster.  For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent. 

[mgent]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster. For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

Have you been following the NBA the past ~10 years?

You need more than 1 alpha / max contract to win.

You need KG/Pierce/Ray level talent.  Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum, LeBron/Wade/Bosh, Curry/Thompson/Draymond/Durant.

Horford didn't handicap us, he brought us 1 step closer.

[PhoSita]

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster.  For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

Signing a bunch of role playing veterans (e.g. the names you mentioned) to 1 or 2 year deals doesn't make the team a contender, either.  To get some of the guys you mentioned, the Celts likely would have had to give out multiyear deals.

At least with Horford, the team's ceiling is theoretically raised if only because Horford has the talent to take the team up a notch in the playoffs.

Furthermore, we've seen that star players like to sign with teams that already have star players.  Arguably, you have a much better shot at the next available superstar FA with IT and Horford than if you only had IT.  The Celts hoped that guy would be Durant, but that didn't work out.  Next up is Griffin or perhaps Hayward.  Beyond that, Westbrook, George, and Cousins.

Horford does make sense age-wise if you consider Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder to be the current core of the team.  Those guys probably have a similar shelf-life to Horford, if you assume Horford will play for another 3-5 years at a high level before he recedes to a bench role.

[mahcussmaht]

I think we got what we expected to get with Al Horford.  He's a big part of our team now.

[flybono]

Horford needs frontcourt help. Plain and simple. Until Ainge grabs his b@lls and gets some help your a.500 team

I dont understand your implication that balls are the issue.

Ainge has been a fairly risky trader in the past.

The Team as constituted the last few years with all the role players and picks should have netted you some legit veteran talent. I look at what Toronto has done in the trade market and the draft.

You have to take a gamble at some point. At the moment this Team cannot play D and the shooting has been terrible

[BostonClamCrowdah]

Overrated
Overpaid

Baaaad deal for Boston

[trickybilly]

Overrated
Overpaid

Baaaad deal for Boston

Stunning hot take. I hadn't really thought about it like that until just then

[BostonClamCrowdah]

Overrated
Overpaid

Baaaad deal for Boston

Stunning hot take. I hadn't really thought about it like that until just then

Well, as long as you knew it yourself!

[TrueFan]

I still like the Horford deal but he has no touch around the rim. I'm not sure we should be posting him up and getting him moving to the rim. It's not one of his strengths.

[Moranis]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster. For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

Have you been following the NBA the past ~10 years?

You need more than 1 alpha / max contract to win.

You need KG/Pierce/Ray level talent.  Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum, LeBron/Wade/Bosh, Curry/Thompson/Draymond/Durant.

Horford didn't handicap us, he brought us 1 step closer.

Sure, but you need THE GUY first.  Or at least a 1.  Boston doesn't have a 1.  They have two 2's, a 2/3 guy, and a bunch of 3's.  Without the 1 in place, overpaying for 2's or 3's is a recipe for mediocrity.  If Durant had signed, then Horford's contract made sense because with Durant, Horford, Thomas, etc. Boston is a real contender.

This goes back on the old adage, you don't lock up role players to long term contract when you don't have the stars.  Similarly you don't lock up a 2 on a max contract if you don't have the 1 already in place.

[Smitty77]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster.  For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

This makes a LOT of sense Moranis!!!

Smitty77

[TrueFan]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster. For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

Have you been following the NBA the past ~10 years?

You need more than 1 alpha / max contract to win.

You need KG/Pierce/Ray level talent.  Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum, LeBron/Wade/Bosh, Curry/Thompson/Draymond/Durant.

Horford didn't handicap us, he brought us 1 step closer.

Sure, but you need THE GUY first.  Or at least a 1.  Boston doesn't have a 1.  They have two 2's, a 2/3 guy, and a bunch of 3's.  Without the 1 in place, overpaying for 2's or 3's is a recipe for mediocrity.  If Durant had signed, then Horford's contract made sense because with Durant, Horford, Thomas, etc. Boston is a real contender.

This goes back on the old adage, you don't lock up role players to long term contract when you don't have the stars.  Similarly you don't lock up a 2 on a max contract if you don't have the 1 already in place.

You are correct to an extent. You do need a 2nd or third best player on a championship team to entice a player like Durant.

Unless we can find another Durant type to sign with us we need to be patient and let the young players develop. We cannot over play our hand because the pieces we have are not good enough to go all in to acquire another 2nd best player on a championship team.

the best path is to hold onto the young players and change the timeline to 4-5 years from now.

I would even consider trading our guys like Horford and IT for a Porzingis. Throw in AB and just get it done. Our best window is not now.

[Moranis]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster. For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

Have you been following the NBA the past ~10 years?

You need more than 1 alpha / max contract to win.

You need KG/Pierce/Ray level talent.  Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum, LeBron/Wade/Bosh, Curry/Thompson/Draymond/Durant.

Horford didn't handicap us, he brought us 1 step closer.

Sure, but you need THE GUY first.  Or at least a 1.  Boston doesn't have a 1.  They have two 2's, a 2/3 guy, and a bunch of 3's.  Without the 1 in place, overpaying for 2's or 3's is a recipe for mediocrity.  If Durant had signed, then Horford's contract made sense because with Durant, Horford, Thomas, etc. Boston is a real contender.

This goes back on the old adage, you don't lock up role players to long term contract when you don't have the stars.  Similarly you don't lock up a 2 on a max contract if you don't have the 1 already in place.

You are correct to an extent. You do need a 2nd or third best player on a championship team to entice a player like Durant.

Unless we can find another Durant type to sign with us we need to be patient and let the young players develop. We cannot over play our hand because the pieces we have are not good enough to go all in to acquire another 2nd best player on a championship team.

the best path is to hold onto the young players and change the timeline to 4-5 years from now.

I would even consider trading our guys like Horford and IT for a Porzingis. Throw in AB and just get it done. Our best window is not now.

Signing Horford and letting the young guys develop are two different paths though.  That is the point I've been making.  By signing Horford, Boston has signaled to the world it wants to win now, which means it is going to make moves to achieve that goal.  Those moves will invariably mean young players/draft picks are going to be traded, young guys aren't going to get as many minutes to develop, etc.  The problem with winning now of course, is Boston needs a 1 and those aren't easy to find.  Boston's best path to a 1 is actually the two upcoming Brooklyn picks, but again that is a different path than the one the team is currently on based on Horford's signing.

[Moranis]

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster.  For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

Signing a bunch of role playing veterans (e.g. the names you mentioned) to 1 or 2 year deals doesn't make the team a contender, either.  To get some of the guys you mentioned, the Celts likely would have had to give out multiyear deals.

At least with Horford, the team's ceiling is theoretically raised if only because Horford has the talent to take the team up a notch in the playoffs.

Furthermore, we've seen that star players like to sign with teams that already have star players.  Arguably, you have a much better shot at the next available superstar FA with IT and Horford than if you only had IT.  The Celts hoped that guy would be Durant, but that didn't work out.  Next up is Griffin or perhaps Hayward.  Beyond that, Westbrook, George, and Cousins.

Horford does make sense age-wise if you consider Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder to be the current core of the team.  Those guys probably have a similar shelf-life to Horford, if you assume Horford will play for another 3-5 years at a high level before he recedes to a bench role.

You're right improving the bench and depth of the team with those types of moves doesn't make Boston a contender, but it also doesn't stunt building the team for the future because those types of players are more easily traded and more easily benched for young players in the future.

Thomas may age poorly, but I'd expect Bradley and Crowder to have at least another 8 years of quality play.  And I don't expect Horford to be anywhere near the same player in 3 years he is now.  We've already seen a slight decline from his peak and I would expect that to continue.  I actually think the David West career arc is a pretty good example of what I think Horford will do (I'm not comparing their games as they are different types of players).

[TrueFan]

Sullinger got hurt when he landed on a foot doing basketball activities for Toronto.  No guarantee he gets hurt in Boston since it wasn't an injury he had when he left Boston.  Now sure, maybe he was destined to get hurt, but he wasn't hurt last year.  Can't project things like that.

And my larger point is simply, by overpaying for Horford, Boston lost out on addressing actual needs of the team.  Boston is a terrible rebounder team, still has no wing scorer, has no low post scorer, etc.  Signing a beta to the contract of an alpha when you don't have an alpha is a recipe for disaster. For the money Boston paid Horford it could have re-signed Sullinger and brought in Biyombo and Hibbert.  Or it could have signed Gerald Henderson, Speights, and Mozgov.  Or signed Trevor Booker and Luol Deng.  Or countless other combinations of players that would better address actual needs of the team i.e. rebounding, low post scoring, a deeper bench, etc. 

Boston wasn't a contender and signing Horford doesn't make Boston a contender.  Horford is 30 the rest of the core of the team is 27 or younger so he doesn't fit in age wise either. 

His signing definitely signals what Ainge is thinking i.e. Ainge is going to trade assets to try and build a contender now.  Ainge obviously hasn't found a trade he likes well enough yet, but before the start of next season Ainge will have made a trade using prime assets to acquire a prime player because Boston needs an alpha to compete now and the Horford signing signals that is the intent.

Have you been following the NBA the past ~10 years?

You need more than 1 alpha / max contract to win.

You need KG/Pierce/Ray level talent.  Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Kobe/Pau/Odom/Bynum, LeBron/Wade/Bosh, Curry/Thompson/Draymond/Durant.

Horford didn't handicap us, he brought us 1 step closer.

Sure, but you need THE GUY first.  Or at least a 1.  Boston doesn't have a 1.  They have two 2's, a 2/3 guy, and a bunch of 3's.  Without the 1 in place, overpaying for 2's or 3's is a recipe for mediocrity.  If Durant had signed, then Horford's contract made sense because with Durant, Horford, Thomas, etc. Boston is a real contender.

This goes back on the old adage, you don't lock up role players to long term contract when you don't have the stars.  Similarly you don't lock up a 2 on a max contract if you don't have the 1 already in place.

You are correct to an extent. You do need a 2nd or third best player on a championship team to entice a player like Durant.

Unless we can find another Durant type to sign with us we need to be patient and let the young players develop. We cannot over play our hand because the pieces we have are not good enough to go all in to acquire another 2nd best player on a championship team.

the best path is to hold onto the young players and change the timeline to 4-5 years from now.

I would even consider trading our guys like Horford and IT for a Porzingis. Throw in AB and just get it done. Our best window is not now.

Signing Horford and letting the young guys develop are two different paths though.  That is the point I've been making.  By signing Horford, Boston has signaled to the world it wants to win now, which means it is going to make moves to achieve that goal.  Those moves will invariably mean young players/draft picks are going to be traded, young guys aren't going to get as many minutes to develop, etc.  The problem with winning now of course, is Boston needs a 1 and those aren't easy to find.  Boston's best path to a 1 is actually the two upcoming Brooklyn picks, but again that is a different path than the one the team is currently on based on Horford's signing.

Im not buying that. Horford isn't blocking any minutes for our young players and he had to be signed to get a chance at Durant. Since we didn't get Durant Ainge now has to decide which path is best. There is no reason he has to be married to either direction. He just has to realize which is best going forward.