Rozier might be the real deal

[jpotter33]

I missed  the part that Rozier outplayed Smart. Outside scoring, Rozier is inferior to Smart in every aspect.

I would invert that message completely.

Smart has outplayed Rozier on defence, other then that Rozier has been superior in every way.

He's scoring more effectively from outside, scoring more effectively from midrange, been more effective at getting in to the paint, he's moving the ball better, he's handling the ball better, he's pushing the tempo better, and his shot selection has been infinitely better.

Rozier is making things happen at will when he's on the court.  Smart continues take (and brick) too many ill advised threes, he continues to look like he's going to dribble off his foot every time he has the ball, and he continues to look like he's three steps too slow as opposing players blow by him on defence like he's standing still.

I applaud Smart for his heart, for his passion, for his effort and for his energy.  When he makes big plays, it's become of that.  It's because he got his hands out and knocked a ball loose, or because he out-muscled a guy for a rebound, or because he has dived and outworked a guy for a loose ball.  I do appreciate those things a great deal, and it makes me smile every time I see it. 

But there is only so far work and desire can take you because you, ultimately, get held back by talent.

But when Smart is stuck one on one against a quick guard, they're blowing by him like he's stuck in quicksand. 

When he's got the ball when the clock is winding down and he has to make something happen, he's throwing up contested threes, dribbling blindly into the defence, or throwing a not very well thought out pass that leads nowhere.

When he's bringing the ball up the court and the defence applies press defence, he's looking like he's stuck in a corner and doesn't know what to do - wildly looking around for anybody to pass it too, clearly completely lacking any confidence in his ball handling.

When Rozier has the ball with the clock winding down, he's creating offence.  He's using his quickness to get into the paint, then dishing out to a team mate who then makes a second pass for a score.  Or he's making a quick dribble or two around a defender, and then pulling up for the midrange J.  Or he's faking a drive, stepping back and drilling the three.  Or he just goes straight to the basket for a layup. 

When he's being pressured by the defence he's able to either dribble through the pressure, or else he's able to keep the dribble alive until he finds an open player. 

I don't think a lot of you guys realise how much Rozier's penetration has been changing the game.  He's constantly drawing the defence in, kicking it out, picking up "hockey assists" that don't register on the score board. When he's out there the ball moves - every time he touches the ball he's either making an aggressive move, or he's moving it on to the next man. 

Smart has looked good in his own ways and he's had a big impact on the games, but not nearly as much as Rozier has.  As I said, he's been our biggest impact player in the preseason so far after Horford and Bradley (who have both been huge). 

Some of you guys may disagree, which is fine - we all have the right to our point of view.  But the way I see it Smart brings are hustle and defense to a team that is absolutely packed with players who specialise at hustle and defence - Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Amir Johnson.  Smart production is big for us, but we'd get by just fine without him. 

Rozier on the other hand brings offensive creativity / spontaneity - something this team is absolutely desperate for, and something nobody else on the team but Thomas is capable of providing now that Evan Turner is gone.

That second unit without Smart would still be tough and competitive, but that second unit without Rozier would be completely incapable of generating anything resembling offence.

I'm sorry, but these are just simply untrue claims in reality. One cannot simply have watched the last several games and make these kinds of statements rationally. Even the announcers on both teams have remarked that Smart has dominated large parts of the last several games on both sides of the ball. Rozier just does not affect the game in any substantial way like that.

Please, let's not pass off opinion as if it's fact. 

Every time Rozier has gone off in the second half of games it's been because nobody else on the second unit has been capable of producing ANY kind of offense, and he's had no choice but to either shoulder the load, or watch the team lose.

Each time he's shouldered the load, and he's single handedly carried the team back in to the game.

Smart makes the occasional big play on defence here and there that can sway a game - I don't deny that, and as I said I appreciate it greatly.  Over the court of a game he might get one steal, might collect one loose ball, might get one aggressive putback off an offensive board. 

Almost every game Rozier has had a point where he's had to go on an 8-10 point scoring spree to bring the team back in the game, and he's proven that when he has to score, he can do so pretty much at will.

When he's not scoring it's because he's been shrugging off potential scoring opportunities and giving it up to others with the aim of trying to be a good teammate.  He only forces the issue on offence when he has no other choice because everybody else on the court is useless offensively, and he's had to take over.   

How many times have you seen him chuck up a mountain of shots when he's been playing with the starters?  I haven't seen it once so far n the preseason.  Because he knows there are veterans on the court who can score the ball, so he's giving it up to those guys.

If ANYBODY on this team is a black hole it's Smart.  He's taken seventeen three point shots in 5 games so far and has made THREE of them!!!

That's 3.4 attempts per game in 22 MPG - 5.5 three point attempts Per 36.  From a guy who shot 25% from three last year on (that's right!) 5.3 attempts per 36 minutes. 

How in god's name can anybody call Rozier a black hole when:

1) He's taking less shots then Smart
2) He's making more shots then Smart
3) He's averaging more assists then Smart
4) He's averaging less turnovers then Smart

I don't care if Smart can't shoot threes, every player has limitations - just stop freaking shooting them!!!  It's the darn Jared Sullinger fiasco all over again.  If you can't shoot, then don't bloody shoot.

People talk about all the extra possessions Smart creates with those two or three hustle plays.  How many extra possessions does he potentially give the defence with all the long rebounds that come from the (almost certain) three point bricks that he keeps chucking up? 

I understand the guy has to improve, and you have to take shots to improve your shooting.  Fine.  So take one or two a game.  If you're wide open - shoot it.  Don't throw up contested threes every time you touch the ball.

Granted, his offense game inside the three point line has improved dramatically - kudos for that.  His shooting pretty well from midrange, finally trying to take advantage of his size in the post, doing a better job of finishing when he gets to the basket.  He deserves recognition for that.   

But he still needs to be intelligent enough to understand what is a good shot and what is a bad shot, and for him any three point attempt that isn't WIDE OPEN is a downright hideous shot.

People here talk about Smart playing within the offence / himself. How is a a 29% career three point shooter taking more then five 3PA Per 36 Minutes playing within the offence / within himself??? 

Rozier is, by the most basic definition, playing within himself:

1)  He's only taking shots he can make - that's evidenced by the fact that his shooting percentages have been so high throughout the entire preseason.

2) He's not forcing all the offence himself and is looking for teammates - that's evidenced by the fact that his assist rate has been so solid throughout the preseason

3) He's not trying to force poor passes or overzealous dribble moves - that's evidenced by the fact that his turnover rate has been so low throughout the preseason

Rozier's play so far has been the very definition of "playing within himself and within the offence".  Along with Horford he's been the most efficient player on the team.  It's easy to see by watching the games, and if you don't have time to do that then the stats don't lie. 

Smart plays hard.  He fights constantly, works for everything, battles all the times.  That's great, and it's appreciated.  He impacts every game with his hustle. 

But that doesn't change the fact that he's slow, he has a terrible jumper, he a merely 'adequate' passer, he can't dribble, and he's got the shot-selection discipline of Josh Smith...and the last part is especially troubling considering that he's going into his third year of playing starter-like minutes, and should know better by now. 

Also you said he's dominated large parts of games - I disagree.  He's dominated small 2 or 3 minute blocks of games.  When Smart is "dominating" it's because he's just knocked away a ball leading to a fast break, and then two minutes later had a nice put-back off an offensive board. Then you'll hear nothing of him for a quarter and a half later when he jumps on the floor after a loose ball.

Rozier has dominated for entire 5-10 minute stretches, and he's done so in multiple games during this preseason.

There was a game in the playoffs last year where I would agree with your statement and say that Smart dominated large parts of that game. There were a handful of regular season games where I'd say the same.  The fast majority of the time he just gets the job done adequately, with the occasionally especially hustle play or two thrown in for good measure.  This whole "dominates large stretches of games" claim is, in my honest opinion, laughable.

Rather than just sitting here writing novels back and forth to each other, how about we just wait to see how Rozier does in an actual game when it matters and he's playing full-time against actual rotation-caliber talent?

I'm just going to go down on the record and say this - there's simply no way that Rozier will be as impactful on the court as Smart. He might shoot better and score a little more efficiently, but he does not have the mindset to run the second unit properly under Stevens' philosophy of pace and space, let alone his subpar defense predicated on gambling. We're going to end up seeing this with Smart playing many, many more minutes than Rozier overall, especially crunch-time minutes, and Smart being the primary ball-handler on the second unit.

No point in discussing this matter anymore until we see Rozier actually get minutes in a game that matters against actual rotation players for the entire game.

Haha I guess scoring efficiency doesn't matter then. Why not trade for MKG as well then. I mean you clearly are saying defense is more important than offense. No idea why we didn't draft Rondae Jefferson either. I just wish I understood what you're seeing in Smart. I mean do you really think that guy has the potential to start? I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I mean he has role player written all over him. Which isn't a bad thing, just think Rozier has more upside.

Also, he made great points, kind of lame to ignore the facts that he's bringing to the table. Just my two cents.

What about my facts? Didn't you basically brush them off?

There's two sides of an argument. What's worse is that this has turned into a p---ing contest. Can't we like BOTH of them?

Right? I'm a big fan of Rozier, but that doesn't mean I can't also think that this notion of him being a potential star from these preseason games is a major exaggeration.

This will all be sorted out soon enough anyways with the regular season approaching when the games really matter and the real players are actually playing the entire game.

[tankcity!]

I missed  the part that Rozier outplayed Smart. Outside scoring, Rozier is inferior to Smart in every aspect.

I would invert that message completely.

Smart has outplayed Rozier on defence, other then that Rozier has been superior in every way.

He's scoring more effectively from outside, scoring more effectively from midrange, been more effective at getting in to the paint, he's moving the ball better, he's handling the ball better, he's pushing the tempo better, and his shot selection has been infinitely better.

Rozier is making things happen at will when he's on the court.  Smart continues take (and brick) too many ill advised threes, he continues to look like he's going to dribble off his foot every time he has the ball, and he continues to look like he's three steps too slow as opposing players blow by him on defence like he's standing still.

I applaud Smart for his heart, for his passion, for his effort and for his energy.  When he makes big plays, it's become of that.  It's because he got his hands out and knocked a ball loose, or because he out-muscled a guy for a rebound, or because he has dived and outworked a guy for a loose ball.  I do appreciate those things a great deal, and it makes me smile every time I see it. 

But there is only so far work and desire can take you because you, ultimately, get held back by talent.

But when Smart is stuck one on one against a quick guard, they're blowing by him like he's stuck in quicksand. 

When he's got the ball when the clock is winding down and he has to make something happen, he's throwing up contested threes, dribbling blindly into the defence, or throwing a not very well thought out pass that leads nowhere.

When he's bringing the ball up the court and the defence applies press defence, he's looking like he's stuck in a corner and doesn't know what to do - wildly looking around for anybody to pass it too, clearly completely lacking any confidence in his ball handling.

When Rozier has the ball with the clock winding down, he's creating offence.  He's using his quickness to get into the paint, then dishing out to a team mate who then makes a second pass for a score.  Or he's making a quick dribble or two around a defender, and then pulling up for the midrange J.  Or he's faking a drive, stepping back and drilling the three.  Or he just goes straight to the basket for a layup. 

When he's being pressured by the defence he's able to either dribble through the pressure, or else he's able to keep the dribble alive until he finds an open player. 

I don't think a lot of you guys realise how much Rozier's penetration has been changing the game.  He's constantly drawing the defence in, kicking it out, picking up "hockey assists" that don't register on the score board. When he's out there the ball moves - every time he touches the ball he's either making an aggressive move, or he's moving it on to the next man. 

Smart has looked good in his own ways and he's had a big impact on the games, but not nearly as much as Rozier has.  As I said, he's been our biggest impact player in the preseason so far after Horford and Bradley (who have both been huge). 

Some of you guys may disagree, which is fine - we all have the right to our point of view.  But the way I see it Smart brings are hustle and defense to a team that is absolutely packed with players who specialise at hustle and defence - Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Amir Johnson.  Smart production is big for us, but we'd get by just fine without him. 

Rozier on the other hand brings offensive creativity / spontaneity - something this team is absolutely desperate for, and something nobody else on the team but Thomas is capable of providing now that Evan Turner is gone.

That second unit without Smart would still be tough and competitive, but that second unit without Rozier would be completely incapable of generating anything resembling offence.

I'm sorry, but these are just simply untrue claims in reality. One cannot simply have watched the last several games and make these kinds of statements rationally. Even the announcers on both teams have remarked that Smart has dominated large parts of the last several games on both sides of the ball. Rozier just does not affect the game in any substantial way like that.

Please, let's not pass off opinion as if it's fact. 

Every time Rozier has gone off in the second half of games it's been because nobody else on the second unit has been capable of producing ANY kind of offense, and he's had no choice but to either shoulder the load, or watch the team lose.

Each time he's shouldered the load, and he's single handedly carried the team back in to the game.

Smart makes the occasional big play on defence here and there that can sway a game - I don't deny that, and as I said I appreciate it greatly.  Over the court of a game he might get one steal, might collect one loose ball, might get one aggressive putback off an offensive board. 

Almost every game Rozier has had a point where he's had to go on an 8-10 point scoring spree to bring the team back in the game, and he's proven that when he has to score, he can do so pretty much at will.

When he's not scoring it's because he's been shrugging off potential scoring opportunities and giving it up to others with the aim of trying to be a good teammate.  He only forces the issue on offence when he has no other choice because everybody else on the court is useless offensively, and he's had to take over.   

How many times have you seen him chuck up a mountain of shots when he's been playing with the starters?  I haven't seen it once so far n the preseason.  Because he knows there are veterans on the court who can score the ball, so he's giving it up to those guys.

If ANYBODY on this team is a black hole it's Smart.  He's taken seventeen three point shots in 5 games so far and has made THREE of them!!!

That's 3.4 attempts per game in 22 MPG - 5.5 three point attempts Per 36.  From a guy who shot 25% from three last year on (that's right!) 5.3 attempts per 36 minutes. 

How in god's name can anybody call Rozier a black hole when:

1) He's taking less shots then Smart
2) He's making more shots then Smart
3) He's averaging more assists then Smart
4) He's averaging less turnovers then Smart

I don't care if Smart can't shoot threes, every player has limitations - just stop freaking shooting them!!!  It's the darn Jared Sullinger fiasco all over again.  If you can't shoot, then don't bloody shoot.

People talk about all the extra possessions Smart creates with those two or three hustle plays.  How many extra possessions does he potentially give the defence with all the long rebounds that come from the (almost certain) three point bricks that he keeps chucking up? 

I understand the guy has to improve, and you have to take shots to improve your shooting.  Fine.  So take one or two a game.  If you're wide open - shoot it.  Don't throw up contested threes every time you touch the ball.

Granted, his offense game inside the three point line has improved dramatically - kudos for that.  His shooting pretty well from midrange, finally trying to take advantage of his size in the post, doing a better job of finishing when he gets to the basket.  He deserves recognition for that.   

But he still needs to be intelligent enough to understand what is a good shot and what is a bad shot, and for him any three point attempt that isn't WIDE OPEN is a downright hideous shot.

People here talk about Smart playing within the offence / himself. How is a a 29% career three point shooter taking more then five 3PA Per 36 Minutes playing within the offence / within himself??? 

Rozier is, by the most basic definition, playing within himself:

1)  He's only taking shots he can make - that's evidenced by the fact that his shooting percentages have been so high throughout the entire preseason.

2) He's not forcing all the offence himself and is looking for teammates - that's evidenced by the fact that his assist rate has been so solid throughout the preseason

3) He's not trying to force poor passes or overzealous dribble moves - that's evidenced by the fact that his turnover rate has been so low throughout the preseason

Rozier's play so far has been the very definition of "playing within himself and within the offence".  Along with Horford he's been the most efficient player on the team.  It's easy to see by watching the games, and if you don't have time to do that then the stats don't lie. 

Smart plays hard.  He fights constantly, works for everything, battles all the times.  That's great, and it's appreciated.  He impacts every game with his hustle. 

But that doesn't change the fact that he's slow, he has a terrible jumper, he a merely 'adequate' passer, he can't dribble, and he's got the shot-selection discipline of Josh Smith...and the last part is especially troubling considering that he's going into his third year of playing starter-like minutes, and should know better by now. 

Also you said he's dominated large parts of games - I disagree.  He's dominated small 2 or 3 minute blocks of games.  When Smart is "dominating" it's because he's just knocked away a ball leading to a fast break, and then two minutes later had a nice put-back off an offensive board. Then you'll hear nothing of him for a quarter and a half later when he jumps on the floor after a loose ball.

Rozier has dominated for entire 5-10 minute stretches, and he's done so in multiple games during this preseason.

There was a game in the playoffs last year where I would agree with your statement and say that Smart dominated large parts of that game. There were a handful of regular season games where I'd say the same.  The fast majority of the time he just gets the job done adequately, with the occasionally especially hustle play or two thrown in for good measure.  This whole "dominates large stretches of games" claim is, in my honest opinion, laughable.

Rather than just sitting here writing novels back and forth to each other, how about we just wait to see how Rozier does in an actual game when it matters and he's playing full-time against actual rotation-caliber talent?

I'm just going to go down on the record and say this - there's simply no way that Rozier will be as impactful on the court as Smart. He might shoot better and score a little more efficiently, but he does not have the mindset to run the second unit properly under Stevens' philosophy of pace and space, let alone his subpar defense predicated on gambling. We're going to end up seeing this with Smart playing many, many more minutes than Rozier overall, especially crunch-time minutes, and Smart being the primary ball-handler on the second unit.

No point in discussing this matter anymore until we see Rozier actually get minutes in a game that matters against actual rotation players for the entire game.

Haha I guess scoring efficiency doesn't matter then. Why not trade for MKG as well then. I mean you clearly are saying defense is more important than offense. No idea why we didn't draft Rondae Jefferson either. I just wish I understood what you're seeing in Smart. I mean do you really think that guy has the potential to start? I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I mean he has role player written all over him. Which isn't a bad thing, just think Rozier has more upside.

Also, he made great points, kind of lame to ignore the facts that he's bringing to the table. Just my two cents.

What about my facts? Didn't you basically brush them off?

There's two sides of an argument. What's worse is that this has turned into a p---ing contest. Can't we like BOTH of them?

I like both of them. I'm just pointing out he's literally been negative on both IT and Rozier in the preseason but not Smart. I wish Smart is great, he still can be. So let's hope he is.

[tankcity!]

I missed  the part that Rozier outplayed Smart. Outside scoring, Rozier is inferior to Smart in every aspect.

I would invert that message completely.

Smart has outplayed Rozier on defence, other then that Rozier has been superior in every way.

He's scoring more effectively from outside, scoring more effectively from midrange, been more effective at getting in to the paint, he's moving the ball better, he's handling the ball better, he's pushing the tempo better, and his shot selection has been infinitely better.

Rozier is making things happen at will when he's on the court.  Smart continues take (and brick) too many ill advised threes, he continues to look like he's going to dribble off his foot every time he has the ball, and he continues to look like he's three steps too slow as opposing players blow by him on defence like he's standing still.

I applaud Smart for his heart, for his passion, for his effort and for his energy.  When he makes big plays, it's become of that.  It's because he got his hands out and knocked a ball loose, or because he out-muscled a guy for a rebound, or because he has dived and outworked a guy for a loose ball.  I do appreciate those things a great deal, and it makes me smile every time I see it. 

But there is only so far work and desire can take you because you, ultimately, get held back by talent.

But when Smart is stuck one on one against a quick guard, they're blowing by him like he's stuck in quicksand. 

When he's got the ball when the clock is winding down and he has to make something happen, he's throwing up contested threes, dribbling blindly into the defence, or throwing a not very well thought out pass that leads nowhere.

When he's bringing the ball up the court and the defence applies press defence, he's looking like he's stuck in a corner and doesn't know what to do - wildly looking around for anybody to pass it too, clearly completely lacking any confidence in his ball handling.

When Rozier has the ball with the clock winding down, he's creating offence.  He's using his quickness to get into the paint, then dishing out to a team mate who then makes a second pass for a score.  Or he's making a quick dribble or two around a defender, and then pulling up for the midrange J.  Or he's faking a drive, stepping back and drilling the three.  Or he just goes straight to the basket for a layup. 

When he's being pressured by the defence he's able to either dribble through the pressure, or else he's able to keep the dribble alive until he finds an open player. 

I don't think a lot of you guys realise how much Rozier's penetration has been changing the game.  He's constantly drawing the defence in, kicking it out, picking up "hockey assists" that don't register on the score board. When he's out there the ball moves - every time he touches the ball he's either making an aggressive move, or he's moving it on to the next man. 

Smart has looked good in his own ways and he's had a big impact on the games, but not nearly as much as Rozier has.  As I said, he's been our biggest impact player in the preseason so far after Horford and Bradley (who have both been huge). 

Some of you guys may disagree, which is fine - we all have the right to our point of view.  But the way I see it Smart brings are hustle and defense to a team that is absolutely packed with players who specialise at hustle and defence - Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Amir Johnson.  Smart production is big for us, but we'd get by just fine without him. 

Rozier on the other hand brings offensive creativity / spontaneity - something this team is absolutely desperate for, and something nobody else on the team but Thomas is capable of providing now that Evan Turner is gone.

That second unit without Smart would still be tough and competitive, but that second unit without Rozier would be completely incapable of generating anything resembling offence.

I'm sorry, but these are just simply untrue claims in reality. One cannot simply have watched the last several games and make these kinds of statements rationally. Even the announcers on both teams have remarked that Smart has dominated large parts of the last several games on both sides of the ball. Rozier just does not affect the game in any substantial way like that.

Please, let's not pass off opinion as if it's fact. 

Every time Rozier has gone off in the second half of games it's been because nobody else on the second unit has been capable of producing ANY kind of offense, and he's had no choice but to either shoulder the load, or watch the team lose.

Each time he's shouldered the load, and he's single handedly carried the team back in to the game.

Smart makes the occasional big play on defence here and there that can sway a game - I don't deny that, and as I said I appreciate it greatly.  Over the court of a game he might get one steal, might collect one loose ball, might get one aggressive putback off an offensive board. 

Almost every game Rozier has had a point where he's had to go on an 8-10 point scoring spree to bring the team back in the game, and he's proven that when he has to score, he can do so pretty much at will.

When he's not scoring it's because he's been shrugging off potential scoring opportunities and giving it up to others with the aim of trying to be a good teammate.  He only forces the issue on offence when he has no other choice because everybody else on the court is useless offensively, and he's had to take over.   

How many times have you seen him chuck up a mountain of shots when he's been playing with the starters?  I haven't seen it once so far n the preseason.  Because he knows there are veterans on the court who can score the ball, so he's giving it up to those guys.

If ANYBODY on this team is a black hole it's Smart.  He's taken seventeen three point shots in 5 games so far and has made THREE of them!!!

That's 3.4 attempts per game in 22 MPG - 5.5 three point attempts Per 36.  From a guy who shot 25% from three last year on (that's right!) 5.3 attempts per 36 minutes. 

How in god's name can anybody call Rozier a black hole when:

1) He's taking less shots then Smart
2) He's making more shots then Smart
3) He's averaging more assists then Smart
4) He's averaging less turnovers then Smart

I don't care if Smart can't shoot threes, every player has limitations - just stop freaking shooting them!!!  It's the darn Jared Sullinger fiasco all over again.  If you can't shoot, then don't bloody shoot.

People talk about all the extra possessions Smart creates with those two or three hustle plays.  How many extra possessions does he potentially give the defence with all the long rebounds that come from the (almost certain) three point bricks that he keeps chucking up? 

I understand the guy has to improve, and you have to take shots to improve your shooting.  Fine.  So take one or two a game.  If you're wide open - shoot it.  Don't throw up contested threes every time you touch the ball.

Granted, his offense game inside the three point line has improved dramatically - kudos for that.  His shooting pretty well from midrange, finally trying to take advantage of his size in the post, doing a better job of finishing when he gets to the basket.  He deserves recognition for that.   

But he still needs to be intelligent enough to understand what is a good shot and what is a bad shot, and for him any three point attempt that isn't WIDE OPEN is a downright hideous shot.

People here talk about Smart playing within the offence / himself. How is a a 29% career three point shooter taking more then five 3PA Per 36 Minutes playing within the offence / within himself??? 

Rozier is, by the most basic definition, playing within himself:

1)  He's only taking shots he can make - that's evidenced by the fact that his shooting percentages have been so high throughout the entire preseason.

2) He's not forcing all the offence himself and is looking for teammates - that's evidenced by the fact that his assist rate has been so solid throughout the preseason

3) He's not trying to force poor passes or overzealous dribble moves - that's evidenced by the fact that his turnover rate has been so low throughout the preseason

Rozier's play so far has been the very definition of "playing within himself and within the offence".  Along with Horford he's been the most efficient player on the team.  It's easy to see by watching the games, and if you don't have time to do that then the stats don't lie. 

Smart plays hard.  He fights constantly, works for everything, battles all the times.  That's great, and it's appreciated.  He impacts every game with his hustle. 

But that doesn't change the fact that he's slow, he has a terrible jumper, he a merely 'adequate' passer, he can't dribble, and he's got the shot-selection discipline of Josh Smith...and the last part is especially troubling considering that he's going into his third year of playing starter-like minutes, and should know better by now. 

Also you said he's dominated large parts of games - I disagree.  He's dominated small 2 or 3 minute blocks of games.  When Smart is "dominating" it's because he's just knocked away a ball leading to a fast break, and then two minutes later had a nice put-back off an offensive board. Then you'll hear nothing of him for a quarter and a half later when he jumps on the floor after a loose ball.

Rozier has dominated for entire 5-10 minute stretches, and he's done so in multiple games during this preseason.

There was a game in the playoffs last year where I would agree with your statement and say that Smart dominated large parts of that game. There were a handful of regular season games where I'd say the same.  The fast majority of the time he just gets the job done adequately, with the occasionally especially hustle play or two thrown in for good measure.  This whole "dominates large stretches of games" claim is, in my honest opinion, laughable.

Rather than just sitting here writing novels back and forth to each other, how about we just wait to see how Rozier does in an actual game when it matters and he's playing full-time against actual rotation-caliber talent?

I'm just going to go down on the record and say this - there's simply no way that Rozier will be as impactful on the court as Smart. He might shoot better and score a little more efficiently, but he does not have the mindset to run the second unit properly under Stevens' philosophy of pace and space, let alone his subpar defense predicated on gambling. We're going to end up seeing this with Smart playing many, many more minutes than Rozier overall, especially crunch-time minutes, and Smart being the primary ball-handler on the second unit.

No point in discussing this matter anymore until we see Rozier actually get minutes in a game that matters against actual rotation players for the entire game.

Haha I guess scoring efficiency doesn't matter then. Why not trade for MKG as well then. I mean you clearly are saying defense is more important than offense. No idea why we didn't draft Rondae Jefferson either. I just wish I understood what you're seeing in Smart. I mean do you really think that guy has the potential to start? I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I mean he has role player written all over him. Which isn't a bad thing, just think Rozier has more upside.

Also, he made great points, kind of lame to ignore the facts that he's bringing to the table. Just my two cents.

What about my facts? Didn't you basically brush them off?

There's two sides of an argument. What's worse is that this has turned into a p---ing contest. Can't we like BOTH of them?

Right? I'm a big fan of Rozier, but that doesn't mean I can't also think that this notion of him being a potential star from these preseason games is a major exaggeration.

This will all be sorted out soon enough anyways with the regular season approaching when the games really matter and the real players are actually playing the entire game.

Please answer this. He's shooting over 50% dude. Has Smart ever sniffed that in any simulation? He couldn't even do it in the summer league. You're the one exaggerating by saying it's only a little more efficiency.

[tankcity!]

I missed  the part that Rozier outplayed Smart. Outside scoring, Rozier is inferior to Smart in every aspect.

I would invert that message completely.

Smart has outplayed Rozier on defence, other then that Rozier has been superior in every way.

He's scoring more effectively from outside, scoring more effectively from midrange, been more effective at getting in to the paint, he's moving the ball better, he's handling the ball better, he's pushing the tempo better, and his shot selection has been infinitely better.

Rozier is making things happen at will when he's on the court.  Smart continues take (and brick) too many ill advised threes, he continues to look like he's going to dribble off his foot every time he has the ball, and he continues to look like he's three steps too slow as opposing players blow by him on defence like he's standing still.

I applaud Smart for his heart, for his passion, for his effort and for his energy.  When he makes big plays, it's become of that.  It's because he got his hands out and knocked a ball loose, or because he out-muscled a guy for a rebound, or because he has dived and outworked a guy for a loose ball.  I do appreciate those things a great deal, and it makes me smile every time I see it. 

But there is only so far work and desire can take you because you, ultimately, get held back by talent.

But when Smart is stuck one on one against a quick guard, they're blowing by him like he's stuck in quicksand. 

When he's got the ball when the clock is winding down and he has to make something happen, he's throwing up contested threes, dribbling blindly into the defence, or throwing a not very well thought out pass that leads nowhere.

When he's bringing the ball up the court and the defence applies press defence, he's looking like he's stuck in a corner and doesn't know what to do - wildly looking around for anybody to pass it too, clearly completely lacking any confidence in his ball handling.

When Rozier has the ball with the clock winding down, he's creating offence.  He's using his quickness to get into the paint, then dishing out to a team mate who then makes a second pass for a score.  Or he's making a quick dribble or two around a defender, and then pulling up for the midrange J.  Or he's faking a drive, stepping back and drilling the three.  Or he just goes straight to the basket for a layup. 

When he's being pressured by the defence he's able to either dribble through the pressure, or else he's able to keep the dribble alive until he finds an open player. 

I don't think a lot of you guys realise how much Rozier's penetration has been changing the game.  He's constantly drawing the defence in, kicking it out, picking up "hockey assists" that don't register on the score board. When he's out there the ball moves - every time he touches the ball he's either making an aggressive move, or he's moving it on to the next man. 

Smart has looked good in his own ways and he's had a big impact on the games, but not nearly as much as Rozier has.  As I said, he's been our biggest impact player in the preseason so far after Horford and Bradley (who have both been huge). 

Some of you guys may disagree, which is fine - we all have the right to our point of view.  But the way I see it Smart brings are hustle and defense to a team that is absolutely packed with players who specialise at hustle and defence - Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Amir Johnson.  Smart production is big for us, but we'd get by just fine without him. 

Rozier on the other hand brings offensive creativity / spontaneity - something this team is absolutely desperate for, and something nobody else on the team but Thomas is capable of providing now that Evan Turner is gone.

That second unit without Smart would still be tough and competitive, but that second unit without Rozier would be completely incapable of generating anything resembling offence.

I'm sorry, but these are just simply untrue claims in reality. One cannot simply have watched the last several games and make these kinds of statements rationally. Even the announcers on both teams have remarked that Smart has dominated large parts of the last several games on both sides of the ball. Rozier just does not affect the game in any substantial way like that.

Please, let's not pass off opinion as if it's fact. 

Every time Rozier has gone off in the second half of games it's been because nobody else on the second unit has been capable of producing ANY kind of offense, and he's had no choice but to either shoulder the load, or watch the team lose.

Each time he's shouldered the load, and he's single handedly carried the team back in to the game.

Smart makes the occasional big play on defence here and there that can sway a game - I don't deny that, and as I said I appreciate it greatly.  Over the court of a game he might get one steal, might collect one loose ball, might get one aggressive putback off an offensive board. 

Almost every game Rozier has had a point where he's had to go on an 8-10 point scoring spree to bring the team back in the game, and he's proven that when he has to score, he can do so pretty much at will.

When he's not scoring it's because he's been shrugging off potential scoring opportunities and giving it up to others with the aim of trying to be a good teammate.  He only forces the issue on offence when he has no other choice because everybody else on the court is useless offensively, and he's had to take over.   

How many times have you seen him chuck up a mountain of shots when he's been playing with the starters?  I haven't seen it once so far n the preseason.  Because he knows there are veterans on the court who can score the ball, so he's giving it up to those guys.

If ANYBODY on this team is a black hole it's Smart.  He's taken seventeen three point shots in 5 games so far and has made THREE of them!!!

That's 3.4 attempts per game in 22 MPG - 5.5 three point attempts Per 36.  From a guy who shot 25% from three last year on (that's right!) 5.3 attempts per 36 minutes. 

How in god's name can anybody call Rozier a black hole when:

1) He's taking less shots then Smart
2) He's making more shots then Smart
3) He's averaging more assists then Smart
4) He's averaging less turnovers then Smart

I don't care if Smart can't shoot threes, every player has limitations - just stop freaking shooting them!!!  It's the darn Jared Sullinger fiasco all over again.  If you can't shoot, then don't bloody shoot.

People talk about all the extra possessions Smart creates with those two or three hustle plays.  How many extra possessions does he potentially give the defence with all the long rebounds that come from the (almost certain) three point bricks that he keeps chucking up? 

I understand the guy has to improve, and you have to take shots to improve your shooting.  Fine.  So take one or two a game.  If you're wide open - shoot it.  Don't throw up contested threes every time you touch the ball.

Granted, his offense game inside the three point line has improved dramatically - kudos for that.  His shooting pretty well from midrange, finally trying to take advantage of his size in the post, doing a better job of finishing when he gets to the basket.  He deserves recognition for that.   

But he still needs to be intelligent enough to understand what is a good shot and what is a bad shot, and for him any three point attempt that isn't WIDE OPEN is a downright hideous shot.

People here talk about Smart playing within the offence / himself. How is a a 29% career three point shooter taking more then five 3PA Per 36 Minutes playing within the offence / within himself??? 

Rozier is, by the most basic definition, playing within himself:

1)  He's only taking shots he can make - that's evidenced by the fact that his shooting percentages have been so high throughout the entire preseason.

2) He's not forcing all the offence himself and is looking for teammates - that's evidenced by the fact that his assist rate has been so solid throughout the preseason

3) He's not trying to force poor passes or overzealous dribble moves - that's evidenced by the fact that his turnover rate has been so low throughout the preseason

Rozier's play so far has been the very definition of "playing within himself and within the offence".  Along with Horford he's been the most efficient player on the team.  It's easy to see by watching the games, and if you don't have time to do that then the stats don't lie. 

Smart plays hard.  He fights constantly, works for everything, battles all the times.  That's great, and it's appreciated.  He impacts every game with his hustle. 

But that doesn't change the fact that he's slow, he has a terrible jumper, he a merely 'adequate' passer, he can't dribble, and he's got the shot-selection discipline of Josh Smith...and the last part is especially troubling considering that he's going into his third year of playing starter-like minutes, and should know better by now. 

Also you said he's dominated large parts of games - I disagree.  He's dominated small 2 or 3 minute blocks of games.  When Smart is "dominating" it's because he's just knocked away a ball leading to a fast break, and then two minutes later had a nice put-back off an offensive board. Then you'll hear nothing of him for a quarter and a half later when he jumps on the floor after a loose ball.

Rozier has dominated for entire 5-10 minute stretches, and he's done so in multiple games during this preseason.

There was a game in the playoffs last year where I would agree with your statement and say that Smart dominated large parts of that game. There were a handful of regular season games where I'd say the same.  The fast majority of the time he just gets the job done adequately, with the occasionally especially hustle play or two thrown in for good measure.  This whole "dominates large stretches of games" claim is, in my honest opinion, laughable.

Rather than just sitting here writing novels back and forth to each other, how about we just wait to see how Rozier does in an actual game when it matters and he's playing full-time against actual rotation-caliber talent?

I'm just going to go down on the record and say this - there's simply no way that Rozier will be as impactful on the court as Smart. He might shoot better and score a little more efficiently, but he does not have the mindset to run the second unit properly under Stevens' philosophy of pace and space, let alone his subpar defense predicated on gambling. We're going to end up seeing this with Smart playing many, many more minutes than Rozier overall, especially crunch-time minutes, and Smart being the primary ball-handler on the second unit.

No point in discussing this matter anymore until we see Rozier actually get minutes in a game that matters against actual rotation players for the entire game.

Haha I guess scoring efficiency doesn't matter then. Why not trade for MKG as well then. I mean you clearly are saying defense is more important than offense. No idea why we didn't draft Rondae Jefferson either. I just wish I understood what you're seeing in Smart. I mean do you really think that guy has the potential to start? I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. I mean he has role player written all over him. Which isn't a bad thing, just think Rozier has more upside.

Also, he made great points, kind of lame to ignore the facts that he's bringing to the table. Just my two cents.

What about my facts? Didn't you basically brush them off?

There's two sides of an argument. What's worse is that this has turned into a p---ing contest. Can't we like BOTH of them?

Right? I'm a big fan of Rozier, but that doesn't mean I can't also think that this notion of him being a potential star from these preseason games is a major exaggeration.

This will all be sorted out soon enough anyways with the regular season approaching when the games really matter and the real players are actually playing the entire game.

Also who said he was going to be a star. Again, you are the one exaggerating.

[MJohnnyboy]

Alright! I'm glad that through all this bickering over a stage in the season that will have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING, we can agree that we're all excited for our two young guards! TP's for everyone!

[crimson_stallion]

I'm optimistic about Terry as well but I feel obligated to bring up that he played pretty well in last year's pre-season too.

Yeah just gonna post that here again.

Also, it's pre-season. Let's not say anything for sure until we see these kids play in an actual game, but say we do take pre-season performances seriously. If you look at the +/-, Smart has had a MUCH bigger impact on the team's play than Rozier. My honest opinion: Smart's threeball is still broken, in fact he may never be a good 3-point shooter, but everywhere else he has looked pretty darn good. His mid-range game looks solid. His distributing skills look good. His defense and tenacity look as great as ever. While Rozier has looked good, it hasn't led to much good. In fact, his defense hasn't looked as good as I had hoped, but don't take my word for it. Let's compare the +/- of the two of them

Marcus's +/- in these 5 games: -8, +1, +11, +14, +11
Terry's: -4, -10, +2, -2, +3

Marcus's +/- has been +19.
Terry's +/- has been -11.
Smart beats Terry in +/- by 30. That to me is pretty telling.

Finally I think Rozier may not have played much tonight because of that hip pointer they were talking about earlier but who knows? I want to reiterate: it's pre-season but I think if anyone's going to make a bigger impact this season, it's Marcus Smart.

I'd prefer if you used RPM instead...Second, only time will tell at this point. Very frustrating to see this board so negative towards Rozier when this is his second year and Smart looked pretty garbage last year. I don't care about plus minus last year, that guy played like crap until the playoffs. But we let it go because we love Smart and don't want to give Rozier credit when it is due.

Offensively yes he did, but defensively he was still pretty good which made him quite useful. I am cautiously optimistic about both of these guys although I can't say I like them playing together. Would it comfort you if I said I think both have a good future in basketball? I see Smart as a guy who makes a great impact on a team even if he's not an offensively sound player. I see Rozier as a scoring punch. Both have done what I thought they would do.

I wasn't trying to be negative about Rozier. In fact, I don't think anyone has really shown negativity on Rozier's game. Negativity is "Rozier sucks" or for example, "(X player) played like crap until the playoffs". That's negativity. I think the better phrase is "Cautious Optimism". I like him and I really hope he plays well this year. I was simply making my contribution to the topic. The debate was who has been better between the two. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I could totally see why people think Rozier's played better, His shot looks good and he's looked more confident, but I still disagree. I say Smart because Smart's contributions by +/- standards have helped the team more than Rozier by a landslide.


Also fun fact, they are 11 days apart in age.

1) Yes, Smart was pretty good on defence last year.  Yet he was still, at best, our third best defensive player after Bradley and Crowder.  I would argue fourth best, because I feel Amir had a bigger defensive impact then Smart did.  If you are the team's third or fourth best defender, that doesn't do much to compensate for being "garbage" (which you just agreed to) on offence.  Bradley, Crowder and Amir were all arguably better then Smart on defence, and they were all infinitely better on offence.  That said I agree he was useful.  He held his own all year and despite his limitations, he impacted games on a consistent bases.  You can't take that away from him, he's earned that credit. 


2) I'm not sure if you followed Rozier in College.  To be completely honest, I had never heard of him until his name got called on draft day, at which point I started to research his game and his college career. 

In college there were really three things Rozier was known for - his scoring, his defence, and his motor / work ethic. 

Everybody knew Rozier could score.  He was the go-to scorer on a team that was all a bout defence.  As a result his shooting percentages often were not great, because he had to force a lot of offence due to him not really having any other scorers on the team.  For that reason you have to understand that Rozier is not accustomed to playing a pass-first PG role.  He's always been depended on to carry a team offensively - to attack, attack, attack. 

But he's got PG skills.  He can handle the ball, he has decent court vision, he can pass.  He's just not used to being in that role.  Yet despite the challenge of adjusting to this new role, he's averaging a better Assist-to-Turnover ratio so far then Marcus Smart - a guy who's going in to his third year as a NBA PG.    That's impressive, because Marcus Smart has played 3,475 NBA minutes - Rozier has played only 300 NBA minutes and is already on his level as a playmaker.  When Smart was this early in his NBA career, his playmaking skills looked garbage.


3) In college, Rozier was just as praised for his defence as he was for his scoring.  He had a reputation as a bulldog defender who is quick, strong, physical and absolutely relentless - known for never giving up on a play defensively.  I believe many considered him to be one of the better defensive guards in the draft.  If burst-scoring is all you saw in Rozier's potential, then that might be short sighted - once he gains more experience and gets used to the NBA game, he has the potential to be an outstanding defensive player. 

He may even end up a better defensive player at his position then Smart one day, because he has all the tools - the length, the speed, the quickness, the motor.  Rozier has two-way potential while also having elite physical attributes, which is why I believe he's far more likely to become a star then Smart is.  Not entirely relevant to this discussion (as we're comparing how they are playing now, not their potential) but thought I'd bring this up anyway.


4) The fact that they are 11 days apart in age - I'm not sure I see where you're going with that.  I assume you are trying to make some type of point about potential/upside?  That Smart has just as much upside as Rozier does because they are the same age?

If so then I strongly disagree.  Potential is based on three things - age, experience, work ethic and raw talent.  Those two guys might on part in terms of age and work ethic, but Rozier's raw talent is FAR greater, and his level of experience is not even remotely close to Smart's - hence he's not had anywhere near the same opportunity to develop.  Smart's spent the past two years player starter minutes on an NBA playoff team.  Rozier has spent one year in the D-League with occasional NBA garbage minutes sprinkled on him to shake things up.

Once Rozier has had a year of experience playing NBA level basketball, his confidence and knowledge in the game will increase exponentially (just as Smart's has) and he'll be well beyond the player he is today...and the player he is today is, arguably, already at Smart's level. 


Just my two cents

[MJohnnyboy]

I'm optimistic about Terry as well but I feel obligated to bring up that he played pretty well in last year's pre-season too.

Yeah just gonna post that here again.

Also, it's pre-season. Let's not say anything for sure until we see these kids play in an actual game, but say we do take pre-season performances seriously. If you look at the +/-, Smart has had a MUCH bigger impact on the team's play than Rozier. My honest opinion: Smart's threeball is still broken, in fact he may never be a good 3-point shooter, but everywhere else he has looked pretty darn good. His mid-range game looks solid. His distributing skills look good. His defense and tenacity look as great as ever. While Rozier has looked good, it hasn't led to much good. In fact, his defense hasn't looked as good as I had hoped, but don't take my word for it. Let's compare the +/- of the two of them

Marcus's +/- in these 5 games: -8, +1, +11, +14, +11
Terry's: -4, -10, +2, -2, +3

Marcus's +/- has been +19.
Terry's +/- has been -11.
Smart beats Terry in +/- by 30. That to me is pretty telling.

Finally I think Rozier may not have played much tonight because of that hip pointer they were talking about earlier but who knows? I want to reiterate: it's pre-season but I think if anyone's going to make a bigger impact this season, it's Marcus Smart.

I'd prefer if you used RPM instead...Second, only time will tell at this point. Very frustrating to see this board so negative towards Rozier when this is his second year and Smart looked pretty garbage last year. I don't care about plus minus last year, that guy played like crap until the playoffs. But we let it go because we love Smart and don't want to give Rozier credit when it is due.

Offensively yes he did, but defensively he was still pretty good which made him quite useful. I am cautiously optimistic about both of these guys although I can't say I like them playing together. Would it comfort you if I said I think both have a good future in basketball? I see Smart as a guy who makes a great impact on a team even if he's not an offensively sound player. I see Rozier as a scoring punch. Both have done what I thought they would do.

I wasn't trying to be negative about Rozier. In fact, I don't think anyone has really shown negativity on Rozier's game. Negativity is "Rozier sucks" or for example, "(X player) played like crap until the playoffs". That's negativity. I think the better phrase is "Cautious Optimism". I like him and I really hope he plays well this year. I was simply making my contribution to the topic. The debate was who has been better between the two. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I could totally see why people think Rozier's played better, His shot looks good and he's looked more confident, but I still disagree. I say Smart because Smart's contributions by +/- standards have helped the team more than Rozier by a landslide.


Also fun fact, they are 11 days apart in age.

1) Yes, Smart was pretty good on defence last year.  Yet he was still, at best, our third best defensive player after Bradley and Crowder.  I would argue fourth best, because I feel Amir had a bigger defensive impact then Smart did.  If you are the team's third or fourth best defender, that doesn't do much to compensate for being "garbage" (which you just agreed to) on offence.  Bradley, Crowder and Amir were all arguably better then Smart on defence, and they were all infinitely better on offence.  That said I agree he was useful.  He held his own all year and despite his limitations, he impacted games on a consistent bases.  You can't take that away from him, he's earned that credit. 


2) I'm not sure if you followed Rozier in College.  To be completely honest, I had never heard of him until his name got called on draft day, at which point I started to research his game and his college career. 

In college there were really three things Rozier was known for - his scoring, his defence, and his motor / work ethic. 

Everybody knew Rozier could score.  He was the go-to scorer on a team that was all a bout defence.  As a result his shooting percentages often were not great, because he had to force a lot of offence due to him not really having any other scorers on the team.  For that reason you have to understand that Rozier is not accustomed to playing a pass-first PG role.  He's always been depended on to carry a team offensively - to attack, attack, attack. 

But he's got PG skills.  He can handle the ball, he has decent court vision, he can pass.  He's just not used to being in that role.  Yet despite the challenge of adjusting to this new role, he's averaging a better Assist-to-Turnover ratio so far then Marcus Smart - a guy who's going in to his third year as a NBA PG.    That's impressive, because Marcus Smart has played 3,475 NBA minutes - Rozier has played only 300 NBA minutes and is already on his level as a playmaker.  When Smart was this early in his NBA career, his playmaking skills looked garbage.


3) In college, Rozier was just as praised for his defence as he was for his scoring.  He had a reputation as a bulldog defender who is quick, strong, physical and absolutely relentless - known for never giving up on a play defensively.  I believe many considered him to be one of the better defensive guards in the draft.  If burst-scoring is all you saw in Rozier's potential, then that might be short sighted - once he gains more experience and gets used to the NBA game, he has the potential to be an outstanding defensive player. 

He may even end up a better defensive player at his position then Smart one day, because he has all the tools - the length, the speed, the quickness, the motor.  Rozier has two-way potential while also having elite physical attributes, which is why I believe he's far more likely to become a star then Smart is.  Not entirely relevant to this discussion (as we're comparing how they are playing now, not their potential) but thought I'd bring this up anyway.


4) The fact that they are 11 days apart in age - I'm not sure I see where you're going with that.  I assume you are trying to make some type of point about potential/upside?  That Smart has just as much upside as Rozier does because they are the same age?

If so then I strongly disagree.  Potential is based on three things - age, experience, work ethic and raw talent.  Those two guys might on part in terms of age and work ethic, but Rozier's raw talent is FAR greater, and his level of experience is not even remotely close to Smart's - hence he's not had anywhere near the same opportunity to develop.  Smart's spent the past two years player starter minutes on an NBA playoff team.  Rozier has spent one year in the D-League with occasional NBA garbage minutes sprinkled on him to shake things up.

Once Rozier has had a year of experience playing NBA level basketball, his confidence and knowledge in the game will increase exponentially (just as Smart's has) and he'll be well beyond the player he is today...and the player he is today is, arguably, already at Smart's level. 


Just my two cents

Sorry about the age thing. That point derived from something I was making a point about earlier but soon realized that certain point was reiterating what tankcity was getting at in the first place. I forgot to delete it. It's irrelevant.

I disagree about the playmaking abilities because Rozier only had one game of 7 assists while having only 4 in the other 4 games, while Smart's assist numbers have been more evenly spread. Also you were incorrect about Rozier averaging more assists than Smart. Smart has 14 assists while Rozier has 11.

I can clearly see you're optimistic about Rozier, and I absolutely share your optimism and I hope the absolute best for him. No matter what happens, what I care the most about is whose play impacts the Celtics for the best. If that's Rozier than HELL TO THE YEAH! WE GOT A STEAL! Better yet it will shut all those Danny haters up who claim he can't draft. However, the only reason why I got involved in this discussion is to point out that no matter how you feel about the other, Smart has helped the team a lot more overall in the pre-season than Rozier has, at least according to +/-.

Most importantly however, I want both of these guys to work out, but I'm going to withhold judgment on them until I get a larger sample size against better competition. Call me a cautious optimist.

[crimson_stallion]

Second, are you really going to throw the minutes thing at my face? Like I said we'll see this year if Smart can keep the job because in all honesty, the dude should be worried Rozier is about to jump him. That's my opinion. And it doesn't say much about Rozier being that great, it speaks to the fact that you keep ignoring that Smart can't shoot.

I agree, Smart absolutely should be worried - and I would bet that he probably already is, especially given all the public praise Rozier has been getting from around the Celtics organisation.  He's impressing all the right people.

Smart is the 'elder statesment' of the Celtic's second unit perimeter guys so he'll get the minutes at the start by default. 

But if Smart under-performs (or a competing player over-performs), then history states that Brad Stevens will have no fear redistributing those minutes/roles accordingly. 

Just ask Jared Sullinger, who went from "starters minutes" to "bench warmer" in the course of a 6 game playoff series - then topped it off with "shipped out of town" a couple of months later.

You keep pointing to Smart's preseason performance, but Rozier's doesn't matter? Because he's playing scrubs? How does that make sense?

The answer, as you know, is that it doesn't make sense.

Smart has been playing on the same second unit group that Rozier has been playing on.  That means they've been playing against the same opponents.

But hey, people like acknowledge and ignore context as they see fit in order to tell their version of a reality - nothing new there!

I'm not anti smart at all actually. I had the dudes back in his rookie year when LBRD would compare him to Tony Allen which right now seems like a pretty good comp to me. Unfortunately the guy burned me and didn't improve his second year so what do you expect me to say? I mean he was the freaking 6th pick overall. He's slightly overweight, again can't shoot. AND HE TAKES MORE SHOTS THAN ROZIER. But of course Rozier is the ballhog. Yeah makes sense.

Likewise to all of the above.

He was THE guy I wanted in that draft - nobody else close on my list.

I was aware of the criticisms - his poor outside shot, lack of ball handling skills, questionable shot selection, mediocre passing, average athleticism. 

Considering that he was a 20 year old kid with a big heart and huge motor, I was Ok with those limitations. 

* I was confident he could get up at least being a 33% - 34% shooter from three
* I figured his ball handling, passing and shot selection would improve with NBA experience
* I figured his size, strength and length would help overcome his lack of athleticism

I figured worst case scenario, even if he didn't improve in those areas, you have a quality role player - a big combo guard with a great motor who offers excellent hustle and defensive versatility, while also being able to occasionally run the PG spot.

The problem is, that's pretty much exactly what has happened, but worse.  He still passes with the proficiency of Jason Terry and he still dribbles like Jeff Green - only his three point shooting has gotten worse every year (now at an all time low!), and his shot selection has seemingly gotten worse every year too!!

I still appreciate what he brings, but the lack of progress in those weak areas really concern me.

By comparison, if you look at Rozier in college his biggest criticisms were his jump shot, his playmaking ability and his shot selection.  He's already improved dramatically as a shooter, he's made big strides as a playmaker (he's now on the level of Smart after two years of play). and he's shot selection has been great.

Smart has had maximum opportunity and has shown minimal growth.  Rozier has had minimal opportunity and has shown maximum growth. 

None of what I'm saying is a reflect of me not liking Smart.  As a character I think he's great - he plays with heart, he puts the team first, he fights like a mule.  I love the kid. 

I'm just realistic enough to acknowledge that he's got some extremely significant limitation areas, and he's not seemingly made much of an improvement in any of them.  I don't see that as a knock on his personality, because I've got no doubt he's putting in the effort.  My concern is that he, quite simply, just isn't capable.  Maybe the kid just plain cannot shoot.  Maybe he just plain cannot dribble the ball - maybe he just lacks the hand/eye coordination or the physical agility/flexibility.  Maybe the bulk that helps his defence so much is holding him back in other areas. 

Maybe he just doesn't have the talent to BE anything much more then he already is. 

You can't hate a kid for that, but that doesn't mean you put him up on a pedestal and pretend the limitations don't exist.  Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade - and I think this season will go a long way to determining whether Marcus Smart is indeed a spade, or if he can surprise us and maybe transform into a club, or better yet a diamond.

As for Rozier, he's showing a ton of flashes and he haven't even come close to scratching the surface of his ability.  This is why I am so incredibly optimistic about his ability.  Like Smart I loved Rozier's game from draft day, but unlike Smart he's already started to improve on those areas that were previously weaknesses - despite the fact that he hasn't really been given the opportunity, he's just finding a way to make the most of his time.   

And regardless of what anybody says, right now he looks at least as good as Smart does out there on the court...despite nowhere near the same experience/opportunity.

[rollie mass]

last year rozier confused me with his crablike manner bringing the ball up  using his spurt in short bursts and hot knowing where he was going
its no longer like that he navigates with ease-he is going to be very good
why the comparisons and criticism and draft number selection labels
both have different games and marcus had huge injury problems and whirlwind of players, not exactly conducive for a rookie-rondo gone,green gone along with his lift

we got two fantastic players on 2nd unit
ainge,red claws and work ethic and now rozier knows where he is going
watching isaiah and playing against his teammates has hastened his growth at both ends of floor
rozier and smart are our guys and both are real deal-

[Snakehead]

TBH you are bias towards Smart. Never really seen you criticize him, even last year when he was garbage until the playoffs.

After this ridiculous statement there's no need for any further argument.  This is someone who is not reasonable or doesn't watch the games.

[Csfan1984]

Smart is a lot better than Rozier right now. And I like Rozier. But we can't even say Rozier has more potential because they are nearly the same age. Not like Rozier is two years younger or Rozier always plays out of position or that Rozier had less coaching in college and more time there. Let's be real people Smart is the better overall player. Rozier has a decent offensive game but is very limited to his own offense. Smart is an elite defender and we have seen good and bad offensive stretches from him. But Smart has as well battled injuries. We need a lot more time watching both guys develop before we can make the call of who is long term better potentially. And then there is team fit too.

With IT and AB here, both undersized guards we need Smart. Yet long term if team can't resign IT it makes sense to keep a score first PG like Rozier since the team relies on that currently. And then you add in injuries that can happen. Right now neither is expendable. But if you want to deal Hunter, Young, DJ, Bentil or Zeller sure that makes sense.
 

[tankcity!]

TBH you are bias towards Smart. Never really seen you criticize him, even last year when he was garbage until the playoffs.

After this ridiculous statement there's no need for any further argument.  This is someone who is not reasonable or doesn't watch the games.

Okay dude thanks for your input. He shot under 40% from her field I mean he wouldn't be getting that much minutes last year on a different team. You clearly value defense so that's great. Just because I don't see what you're seeing doesn't mean I don't watch the games. He was garbage offensively.  I hope that makes you feel  a little better. I know more than you for sure. For example I wanted them to draft jaylen brown since he was in Cal. Most people here crushed him. But yeah I'm an idiot. Great job attacking my knowledge though. Makes you seem really smart.

[trickybilly]

I look forward to a reliable metric which compares value from both ends. +/- is flawed. Actually who thinks they know the best metric for combined performance..

[hwangjini_1]

...

Smart has had maximum opportunity and has shown minimal growth.  Rozier has had minimal opportunity and has shown maximum growth.  ...

this part may be more hyperbole and the result of being engaged in a heated debate than an accurate assessment.

it is preseason, only preseason, did i mention it is preseason, but, so far smart is shooing 70% from inside the 3P. that's encouraging....for preseason. 

[hwangjini_1]

I look forward to a reliable metric which compares value from both ends. +/- is flawed. Actually who thinks they know the best metric for combined performance..

ha. who doesnt?