Draymond Green rips PP

[tazzmaniac]

We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

I think that's where the disconnect comes from. You equate "competitive" with wanting to coast to a championship without being seriously challenged. 

I don't see it that way. "Competitive" players want to actually compete for a championship, not have one handed to them. What Durant did - leave a championship-caliber team after being a big part of why that team choked a 3-1 playoff series lead - shows a lack of competitive instinct.

And I was just like a kid, like, 'I'd really like playing with these guys. I'd get wide-open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide-open layups.' I was basically begging him. I was like, 'Yo, this would be nice.'"

Not only does he want an easy title, but he wants the game to be easy, too. Wide open shots, easy layups. The motivation there isn't competitive spirit.

So you wouldn't want Ainge to sign KD if he becomes available next offseason?

Where did I say that?

It was a question albeit one I'm pretty sure I know the answer to.  You said he choked in the playoffs and doesn't have competitive spirit.  So logically one might assume you wouldn't want an uncompetitive choke artist on the team.  Certainly getting someone like that wouldn't advance our championship aspirations.           

[PhoSita]

If Durant had stayed in OKC, what do you think the odds would have been of that team winning a title in the next 4-5 years, while Durant is still in his prime?  Do you think their chances in any given season would have ever been better than 10%? 

Given that they went 55-27 last year, were up 3 games to 1 in the Western Conference Finals, and choked away golden chances in games 5-7, I think its safe to say that their chances would've been much greater than 10%.   Projecting future injuries onto them or not.

I don't know how you came up with the 10% besides projecting the utmost pessimism onto that team, but their chances would've been much greater.

Well, I figure that in a normal year, there are 4 or 5 teams you might call contenders.  Teams that have a better than 1% chance at actually going all the way.

Each of those teams might have something like a 15-20% chance of winning it all.

But you look at a league with the Warriors on top of the Western Conference, and LeBron ruling the East with an iron fist, and I think the chance for any other "contender" type teams -- your Clippers, Spurs, Thunder (before Durant left), and so on -- is much closer to 10%.


If you spread that out over multiple seasons, the odds of winning at least once probably go up.  But I think the Thunder had greater than normal injury concerns given the history of their two best players.  And I think the history of the Harden trade is relevant, as well.  Durant could not be sure that the team around him this season would remain intact.

[Moranis]

Shaq left Orlando with a strong side kick as well.

Moses Malone forced his way out of a very good team.

Wilt became disgruntled and was moved a couple of times. 

Kareem forced himself out of Milwaukee to go to LA (and he had actually won a title in Milwaukee).

Magic has said that if the Lakers lost the coin toss he would have returned to Michigan State for his senior year as he didn't want to go to Chicago (and would have rather joined a team with the best player in the world at the time).

Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony forced themselves off of perennial playoff teams.

Great players leave pretty good teams all of the time.  This isn't a new development.

The Thunder had a better supporting cast than all the players/teams you mentioned. And Westbrook is better than the #2 player on all those teams.

Deron, CP3, and Melo all had horrible supporting casts. Did CP3 or Melo even win a single playoff series between them on their previous teams?

D-will is a headcase and a fraud. His 2nd-best player was Kirilenko or a very young Paul Millsap.

Kareem's Bucks weren't great outside of him. Same with Moses' Rockets, that team had a 40-42 record the year they lost to the Celtics in the Finals. That was a fluke. Wilt famously had many poor supporting casts.

Penny Hardaway was very good but IMO not nearly as good as Westbrook. And the rest of that team was thin.

Put Shaq, Kareem, or any other all-time great on the Thunder in place of Durant and they win multiple championships.

Maybe the problem is that Durant isn't as great as we thought, and is more towards the CP3/Melo/Deron end of the star spectrum than the LeBron/Bird/Jordan end. Maybe we expect too much from him, and he was never cut out to be an all-time great.

Penny Hardaway finished 3rd in MVP voting in 95/96.  Westbrook has never finished higher than 4th. 

As has been mentioned, Paul made it as far in New Orleans as he has in Los Angeles.  That Hornets team had David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja Stojakovic as well as some quality role players.  When he forced himself off the team they still had West and Peja, but no Chandler but did have Trevor Ariza, Emeka Okafor, Carl Landry, Jarret Jack, and a bunch of other quality role players. 

Carmelo made the playoffs every single season in Denver, his last three years they won at least 50 games and were just one season removed from the WCF.  The team he demanded off of had Billups, Afflalo, Kenyon Martin, Nene, JR Smith, Ty Lawson, and Birdman.

[Roy H.]

We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

I think that's where the disconnect comes from. You equate "competitive" with wanting to coast to a championship without being seriously challenged. 

I don't see it that way. "Competitive" players want to actually compete for a championship, not have one handed to them. What Durant did - leave a championship-caliber team after being a big part of why that team choked a 3-1 playoff series lead - shows a lack of competitive instinct.

And I was just like a kid, like, 'I'd really like playing with these guys. I'd get wide-open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide-open layups.' I was basically begging him. I was like, 'Yo, this would be nice.'"

Not only does he want an easy title, but he wants the game to be easy, too. Wide open shots, easy layups. The motivation there isn't competitive spirit.

So you wouldn't want Ainge to sign KD if he becomes available next offseason?

Where did I say that?

It was a question albeit one I'm pretty sure I know the answer to.  You said he choked in the playoffs and doesn't have competitive spirit.  So logically one might assume you wouldn't want an uncompetitive choke artist on the team.  Certainly getting someone like that wouldn't advance our championship aspirations.         

Talent generally is more important than intangibles. So long as there's an alpha player on his team, Durant will be fine.  Don't expect him to be a leader, though, or to step up his game in the biggest moments.

[PhoSita]

I think what Roy said about the definition of "competitive" is the basic divide here.

I understand that argument.  Winning games in Golden State will be much "easier" for Durant than it was in OKC.  In that sense, he took the "easy" route.


On the other hand, we have arguably never seen a team like this new Warriors team ever before.

It is in play that they become the most dominant team ever, possibly for 2-3 seasons or more.  They probably already have the greatest collection of talent that we've seen on one team in the modern NBA outside out the All-Star game or the Olympics.

That is something Durant could never have achieved if he had stayed in OKC.  The best he could hope for is that his team stayed healthy, had great chemistry, and got hot at the right time in the right year and won a title, similar to what Dirk did with Dallas in 2011, or what the Celts did in 2008.

This way, yes, the challenge that Durant faces individually is less than what he faced in OKC.  But he chose to accept the ridicule and scathing criticism he knew he'd get for making this decision, because it would give him a much better chance at being one of the few superstar players who wins multiple rings.  On top of that, he might get to be a major part of a team the likes of which the modern NBA has never seen.

What is ignoble, or cowardly, about that?  Durant must know that he will now be judged on a much harsher rubric than if he had stayed in OKC.  A single title will not be enough.  Five more All-Star appearances won't mean a thing.  A Finals MVP award might not win over some of his critics in this thread.  He will need to help the Warriors win 70+ games multiple times on the way to 3, 4, 5, or more titles.  That's the only way he will grab the glory now.

And hey, he might just do it.


I understand disappointment that Durant didn't choose to come to the Celtics, or stay to fight the good fight and maybe go down with the ship in OKC.  But I think people ought to at least recognize that it is possible to view his decision a different way -- to consider that maybe Durant just wanted a new experience, a new challenge, and an opportunity to be a part of something that has never been done in the NBA.

[tazzmaniac]

I think what Roy said about the definition of "competitive" is the basic divide here.

I understand that argument.  Winning games in Golden State will be much "easier" for Durant than it was in OKC.  In that sense, he took the "easy" route.


On the other hand, we have arguably never seen a team like this new Warriors team ever before.

It is in play that they become the most dominant team ever, possibly for 2-3 seasons or more.  They probably already have the greatest collection of talent that we've seen on one team in the modern NBA outside out the All-Star game or the Olympics.

That is something Durant could never have achieved if he had stayed in OKC.  The best he could hope for is that his team stayed healthy, had great chemistry, and got hot at the right time in the right year and won a title, similar to what Dirk did with Dallas in 2011, or what the Celts did in 2008.

This way, yes, the challenge that Durant faces individually is less than what he faced in OKC.  But he chose to accept the ridicule and scathing criticism he knew he'd get for making this decision, because it would give him a much better chance at being one of the few superstar players who wins multiple rings.  On top of that, he might get to be a major part of a team the likes of which the modern NBA has never seen.

What is ignoble, or cowardly, about that?  Durant must know that he will now be judged on a much harsher rubric than if he had stayed in OKC.  A single title will not be enough.  Five more All-Star appearances won't mean a thing.  A Finals MVP award might not win over some of his critics in this thread.  He will need to help the Warriors win 70+ games multiple times on the way to 3, 4, 5, or more titles.  That's the only way he will grab the glory now.

And hey, he might just do it.


I understand disappointment that Durant didn't choose to come to the Celtics, or stay to fight the good fight and maybe go down with the ship in OKC.  But I think people ought to at least recognize that it is possible to view his decision a different way -- to consider that maybe Durant just wanted a new experience, a new challenge, and an opportunity to be a part of something that has never been done in the NBA.

Are we sure GSW is going to be that good?  They've got their big 4 but they're starting Zaza at C.  I like Zaza as a bruiser off the bench but not so much as a starter.  Their bench appears to essentially be Iguodala, West and Livingston which is not particularly strong.  Am I missing someone?  Not sure what your definition of the modern NBA is but I think the Heat big three teams would beat GSW in the finals. 

[walker834]

Two sides of the coin. Draymond is just sticking up for his thing although makes me wish Pierce was still good hearing him get ripped like that.  I think guys like pierce and kg had that extra something. They got worn out faster too though. I wish they were together earlier. Still champions. Took the hard road and made them different people and better players in ways imo.

I would take Pierce over dwade and guys like that.  I don't even like lebron that much either.  I think he is a flawed player in his own way.  Duncan wearing him out and the heat in san antonio. Bird would play in that stuff all day every day. Probably shortened his career but he was really good.

Fairweather vs having something more.  I don't know.... Not a huge Lebron fan.

Boston vs Miami.  Boston vs LA.  I like Boston...  Overall next to NY another not so fair weather place,  it's the most winning sports city. Still like Boston better. We have to be an underdog to someone.

Cleveland isn't exactly a fairweather place.  Lebron is like jim brown to me except he went for the ring.  Still think both guys are greats but flawed in their own way.  Lebron delivering it back to cleveland is impressive.

Bird used to do that stuff in Mcdonald's commercials.

[LilRip]

I wish Pierce was on a more like able team than the Clips. I'm rooting against GSW but I don't really see the Clippers dethroning them as WCF champs.

[walker834]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oACRt-Qp-s

There  ya go. What Bird would do for a Big Mac and fries is legendary.

[trickybilly]

I just love that in trying to defend Durants actions as reasonable, he paints him as a listless Fortune 500 CEO/Bond villain. As if regular basketball fans fully dig that analogy as chill.. Hahaha! No.

[walker834]

I agree with you. I think a lot of these guys are controlled by agents and stuff like that.  Some more than others.  Russell would refuse to play for certain teams but its because the cities were racist.  Totally different and humanistic view vs image and money and power. Russell was not the type of guy to sacrifice his personal integrity for money or power.

That's why the media perception is warped a lot of the time. Then you have Tiger Woods running around doing whatever he is.

Bill Russell may have his skeletons but I'll take him.  I think he's a better person over Tiger Woods endorsements and billions any day. That's a lot of extra weight to carry around.

A lot of these guys are corporations and about their image. Some of them are just basketball players and trying to win.  I think from a basketball purist viewpoint Pierce wins this debate if you really listen to what he's saying.  Green wants to go work for apple and google. He's more concerned about his image and what pierce said about him and has spun it to make it seem like it's pierce spinning it and dwelling on the past. Who cares is right.  Green is an idiot.

[SparzWizard]

Draymond Green is a thug. And the entire Warriors team is just as pathetic as the 2011 Heat team.

[kraidstar]

Shaq left Orlando with a strong side kick as well.

Moses Malone forced his way out of a very good team.

Wilt became disgruntled and was moved a couple of times. 

Kareem forced himself out of Milwaukee to go to LA (and he had actually won a title in Milwaukee).

Magic has said that if the Lakers lost the coin toss he would have returned to Michigan State for his senior year as he didn't want to go to Chicago (and would have rather joined a team with the best player in the world at the time).

Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony forced themselves off of perennial playoff teams.

Great players leave pretty good teams all of the time.  This isn't a new development.

The Thunder had a better supporting cast than all the players/teams you mentioned. And Westbrook is better than the #2 player on all those teams.

Deron, CP3, and Melo all had horrible supporting casts. Did CP3 or Melo even win a single playoff series between them on their previous teams?

D-will is a headcase and a fraud. His 2nd-best player was Kirilenko or a very young Paul Millsap.

Kareem's Bucks weren't great outside of him. Same with Moses' Rockets, that team had a 40-42 record the year they lost to the Celtics in the Finals. That was a fluke. Wilt famously had many poor supporting casts.

Penny Hardaway was very good but IMO not nearly as good as Westbrook. And the rest of that team was thin.

Put Shaq, Kareem, or any other all-time great on the Thunder in place of Durant and they win multiple championships.

Maybe the problem is that Durant isn't as great as we thought, and is more towards the CP3/Melo/Deron end of the star spectrum than the LeBron/Bird/Jordan end. Maybe we expect too much from him, and he was never cut out to be an all-time great.

Penny Hardaway finished 3rd in MVP voting in 95/96.  Westbrook has never finished higher than 4th. 

As has been mentioned, Paul made it as far in New Orleans as he has in Los Angeles.  That Hornets team had David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja Stojakovic as well as some quality role players.  When he forced himself off the team they still had West and Peja, but no Chandler but did have Trevor Ariza, Emeka Okafor, Carl Landry, Jarret Jack, and a bunch of other quality role players. 

Carmelo made the playoffs every single season in Denver, his last three years they won at least 50 games and were just one season removed from the WCF.  The team he demanded off of had Billups, Afflalo, Kenyon Martin, Nene, JR Smith, Ty Lawson, and Birdman.

Was there any point when any credible analyst thought that either the Nuggets or Hornets were a legit contender? I remember thinking they were second-round fodder at best. They were fraud teams, only a little better than KG's Wolves.

[kraidstar]

Durant made some comments today which didn't please Westbrook too much.

KD:
"I feel really grateful to play for a team like that and play with a bunch of players who are selfless and enjoy the game in its purest form," Durant said. "They make it about the players, they make it about the environment, so it was really an easy choice."


Maybe there was more friction in OKC than we thought? Or is he just trying to cover his tracks? Or is Westbrook being too thin-skinned here?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17786172/russell-westbrook-says-kevin-durant-selfless-comments-golden-state-warriors-cute

[moiso]

Draymond Green is a thug. And the entire Warriors team is just as pathetic as the 2011 Heat team.

Maybe an outgoing loudmouth jerk.  Not a thug.