Author Topic: Draymond Green rips PP  (Read 14760 times)

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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2016, 06:19:47 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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There's some "interesting" reasoning going on here.

We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

We deride any star players we perceive to care more about other things -- money, endorsements, the love of casual fans, celebrity -- than winning.

We want great players to strive for greatness, to desire above all else to make history.

We want players, stars and otherwise, to demonstrate a willingness to sacrifice their own personal glory and prestige, even the admiration of fans and fellow players, in order to achieve historic greatness and multiple championships.


So ... Kevin Durant joins the Warriors and in so doing becomes part of arguably the greatest collection of talent on one team in the modern era of the NBA.  Implicit in this decision is a willingness to subsume his own talent, his preferred style of ball-dominant play, to the needs of a team with multiple elite talents, at least to some extent.  As a result, he now arguably has the best chance he's ever had in his career to win not just one ring, but multiple rings.


As a result, of course, he is a punk, a coward, a player taking the easy way out.  We criticize him mercilessly.  He is, somehow, the opposite of all that we supposedly want a great player to be.


Let me ask you guys and gals this:

If Durant had stayed in OKC, what do you think the odds would have been of that team winning a title in the next 4-5 years, while Durant is still in his prime?  Do you think their chances in any given season would have ever been better than 10%? 

Take into consideration the injury history of both Westbrook and Durant.  Don't forget, either, that OKC had demonstrated an inability to keep star talent together long term due to financial constraints.  Not to mention question's about Ibaka's age.


When I see this conversation I often think about guys like Charles Barkely, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing.  Everybody agrees they were great players, but the dominant narrative of their careers, in retrospect, is that they were never able to overcome the superteams that dominated the league during their careers.  None of them ever won a title.


I don't think it's so hard to imagine Durant following in their footsteps, losing year after year to the Warriors, the LeBrons, or perhaps, in later years, whatever the next superteam will be (the Wolves?).  He was already weighed down by a reputation as a great, MVP caliber player who "couldn't close" in the playoffs. 

If Durant spent the rest of his prime winning 50-60 games in the regular season but never making it past the Warriors or Cavs, and he ultimately failed to win a title, wouldn't he be looked at in the same way we now regard Barkley, Ewing, and Malone?




Without a doubt, Durant's glory would be greater if he had stayed in OKC and somehow managed to get past Golden State and beat the Cavs.  But the much greater possibility is that the Thunder would continue to be an also-ran, even assuming their main guys stayed together and stayed on the court when it mattered most.

It seems to me many here are guilty of placing Durant in a bit of a catch-22.  Chances are he would have drawn your criticism; it's just a matter of it coming now, after he joined the Warriors, or five to ten years from now, when it became clear he wasn't going to win a title with the Thunder despite well over a decade of trying to make it work, trusting in the flawed and stingy ownership of that franchise, and repeatedly falling short.

My guess is that if a year from now Durant has a ring on his finger and a Finals MVP trophy on his resume, he won't mind being regarded as a ringchasing villain.  Much better than to be this generation's Barkley.

Sorry, Chuck.
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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2016, 06:34:30 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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There's some "interesting" reasoning going on here.

We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

We deride any star players we perceive to care more about other things -- money, endorsements, the love of casual fans, celebrity -- than winning.

We want great players to strive for greatness, to desire above all else to make history.

We want players, stars and otherwise, to demonstrate a willingness to sacrifice their own personal glory and prestige, even the admiration of fans and fellow players, in order to achieve historic greatness and multiple championships.


So ... Kevin Durant joins the Warriors and in so doing becomes part of arguably the greatest collection of talent on one team in the modern era of the NBA.  Implicit in this decision is a willingness to subsume his own talent, his preferred style of ball-dominant play, to the needs of a team with multiple elite talents, at least to some extent.  As a result, he now arguably has the best chance he's ever had in his career to win not just one ring, but multiple rings.


As a result, of course, he is a punk, a coward, a player taking the easy way out.  We criticize him mercilessly.  He is, somehow, the opposite of all that we supposedly want a great player to be.


Let me ask you guys and gals this:

If Durant had stayed in OKC, what do you think the odds would have been of that team winning a title in the next 4-5 years, while Durant is still in his prime?  Do you think their chances in any given season would have ever been better than 10%? 

Take into consideration the injury history of both Westbrook and Durant.  Don't forget, either, that OKC had demonstrated an inability to keep star talent together long term due to financial constraints.  Not to mention question's about Ibaka's age.


When I see this conversation I often think about guys like Charles Barkely, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing.  Everybody agrees they were great players, but the dominant narrative of their careers, in retrospect, is that they were never able to overcome the superteams that dominated the league during their careers.  None of them ever won a title.


I don't think it's so hard to imagine Durant following in their footsteps, losing year after year to the Warriors, the LeBrons, or perhaps, in later years, whatever the next superteam will be (the Wolves?).  He was already weighed down by a reputation as a great, MVP caliber player who "couldn't close" in the playoffs. 

If Durant spent the rest of his prime winning 50-60 games in the regular season but never making it past the Warriors or Cavs, and he ultimately failed to win a title, wouldn't he be looked at in the same way we now regard Barkley, Ewing, and Malone?




Without a doubt, Durant's glory would be greater if he had stayed in OKC and somehow managed to get past Golden State and beat the Cavs.  But the much greater possibility is that the Thunder would continue to be an also-ran, even assuming their main guys stayed together and stayed on the court when it mattered most.

It seems to me many here are guilty of placing Durant in a bit of a catch-22.  Chances are he would have drawn your criticism; it's just a matter of it coming now, after he joined the Warriors, or five to ten years from now, when it became clear he wasn't going to win a title with the Thunder despite well over a decade of trying to make it work, trusting in the flawed and stingy ownership of that franchise, and repeatedly falling short.

My guess is that if a year from now Durant has a ring on his finger and a Finals MVP trophy on his resume, he won't mind being regarded as a ringchasing villain.  Much better than to be this generation's Barkley.

Sorry, Chuck.

1) Yes they would have had greater than 10% chance to win the finals. They were up 3-1 to the Warriors last year, so why you act like they were not. a great team I have no idea.

2)He didn't just go to a good team, he went to a team that just had the greatest regular season in NBA history, and won a ring two years ago.

There is no glory to what he did, just cowardice.

You are having to do some serious mental gymnastics to try and make your point.

This is like what Ray did to us x 1,000.

There is no possible way to legitimately say that what Durant did was not a 'female dog' thing to do.

He went to a team with the reigning MVP and three all NBA players for God's sake.

KD showed the world he is not an Alpha athlete. He is a front runner who just wants to take the easy way out.


Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2016, 06:48:37 PM »

Offline fantankerous

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There's some "interesting" reasoning going on here.

We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

We deride any star players we perceive to care more about other things -- money, endorsements, the love of casual fans, celebrity -- than winning.

We want great players to strive for greatness, to desire above all else to make history.

We want players, stars and otherwise, to demonstrate a willingness to sacrifice their own personal glory and prestige, even the admiration of fans and fellow players, in order to achieve historic greatness and multiple championships.


So ... Kevin Durant joins the Warriors and in so doing becomes part of arguably the greatest collection of talent on one team in the modern era of the NBA.  Implicit in this decision is a willingness to subsume his own talent, his preferred style of ball-dominant play, to the needs of a team with multiple elite talents, at least to some extent.  As a result, he now arguably has the best chance he's ever had in his career to win not just one ring, but multiple rings.


As a result, of course, he is a punk, a coward, a player taking the easy way out.  We criticize him mercilessly.  He is, somehow, the opposite of all that we supposedly want a great player to be.


Let me ask you guys and gals this:

If Durant had stayed in OKC, what do you think the odds would have been of that team winning a title in the next 4-5 years, while Durant is still in his prime?  Do you think their chances in any given season would have ever been better than 10%? 

Take into consideration the injury history of both Westbrook and Durant.  Don't forget, either, that OKC had demonstrated an inability to keep star talent together long term due to financial constraints.  Not to mention question's about Ibaka's age.


When I see this conversation I often think about guys like Charles Barkely, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing.  Everybody agrees they were great players, but the dominant narrative of their careers, in retrospect, is that they were never able to overcome the superteams that dominated the league during their careers.  None of them ever won a title.


I don't think it's so hard to imagine Durant following in their footsteps, losing year after year to the Warriors, the LeBrons, or perhaps, in later years, whatever the next superteam will be (the Wolves?).  He was already weighed down by a reputation as a great, MVP caliber player who "couldn't close" in the playoffs. 

If Durant spent the rest of his prime winning 50-60 games in the regular season but never making it past the Warriors or Cavs, and he ultimately failed to win a title, wouldn't he be looked at in the same way we now regard Barkley, Ewing, and Malone?




Without a doubt, Durant's glory would be greater if he had stayed in OKC and somehow managed to get past Golden State and beat the Cavs.  But the much greater possibility is that the Thunder would continue to be an also-ran, even assuming their main guys stayed together and stayed on the court when it mattered most.

It seems to me many here are guilty of placing Durant in a bit of a catch-22.  Chances are he would have drawn your criticism; it's just a matter of it coming now, after he joined the Warriors, or five to ten years from now, when it became clear he wasn't going to win a title with the Thunder despite well over a decade of trying to make it work, trusting in the flawed and stingy ownership of that franchise, and repeatedly falling short.

My guess is that if a year from now Durant has a ring on his finger and a Finals MVP trophy on his resume, he won't mind being regarded as a ringchasing villain.  Much better than to be this generation's Barkley.

Sorry, Chuck.

1) Yes they would have had greater than 10% chance to win the finals. They were up 3-1 to the Warriors last year, so why you act like they were not. a great team I have no idea.

2)He didn't just go to a good team, he went to a team that just had the greatest regular season in NBA history, and won a ring two years ago.

There is no glory to what he did, just cowardice.

You are having to do some serious mental gymnastics to try and make your point.

This is like what Ray did to us x 1,000.

There is no possible way to legitimately say that what Durant did was not a 'female dog' thing to do.

He went to a team with the reigning MVP and three all NBA players for God's sake.

KD showed the world he is not an Alpha athlete. He is a front runner who just wants to take the easy way out.

There's no better confirmation of PhoSita's point than this post. 

Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2016, 06:49:50 PM »

Offline mctyson

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http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/10/paul_pierce_kevin_durant.html

Wow. I hope the Warriors don't win it all this year.

I love the fact that he is making every Celtics fan hate the Warriors.

Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2016, 07:08:08 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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If Durant had stayed in OKC, what do you think the odds would have been of that team winning a title in the next 4-5 years, while Durant is still in his prime?  Do you think their chances in any given season would have ever been better than 10%? 



Given that they went 55-27 last year, were up 3 games to 1 in the Western Conference Finals, and choked away golden chances in games 5-7, I think its safe to say that their chances would've been much greater than 10%.   Projecting future injuries onto them or not.

I don't know how you came up with the 10% besides projecting the utmost pessimism onto that team, but their chances would've been much greater.


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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2016, 07:13:19 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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If KD decides after this season to put himself on the free agent market again, everyone who is ripping him now will be hoping against hope that he decides to come to the Celtics.  He'll be the piece we need to get to the finals and our next championship.  All the badmouthing will be conveniently forgotten. 

Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2016, 07:40:41 PM »

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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2016, 07:43:44 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

I think that's where the disconnect comes from. You equate "competitive" with wanting to coast to a championship without being seriously challenged. 

I don't see it that way. "Competitive" players want to actually compete for a championship, not have one handed to them. What Durant did - leave a championship-caliber team after being a big part of why that team choked a 3-1 playoff series lead - shows a lack of competitive instinct.

Quote
And I was just like a kid, like, 'I'd really like playing with these guys. I'd get wide-open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide-open layups.' I was basically begging him. I was like, 'Yo, this would be nice.'"

Not only does he want an easy title, but he wants the game to be easy, too. Wide open shots, easy layups. The motivation there isn't competitive spirit.


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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2016, 07:46:44 PM »

Online Moranis

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Shaq left Orlando with a strong side kick as well.

Moses Malone forced his way out of a very good team.

Wilt became disgruntled and was moved a couple of times. 

Kareem forced himself out of Milwaukee to go to LA (and he had actually won a title in Milwaukee).

Magic has said that if the Lakers lost the coin toss he would have returned to Michigan State for his senior year as he didn't want to go to Chicago (and would have rather joined a team with the best player in the world at the time).

Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony forced themselves off of perennial playoff teams.

Great players leave pretty good teams all of the time.  This isn't a new development.

Sure, players leave for greener pastures all the time. That's acceptable. I'l even let the fact that he was 1 game away from the NBA finals slide.

What's not acceptable is leaving your good team, and going to the best regular season team of all time, a team that won it all a year ago without you, and had 3 chances to win it again this year (and likely would have won it all again if Draymond wasn't kicking nuts). That's the problem with this. Sure, KD could have left. I dont care at all where he went (if he came to boston, it'd be nice, but i wouldnt call him out or anything if he joined the Heat, or the Spurs, or whoever). Why did it have to be that Golden State team? That, my friend, is the issue we all have with his move.
because he wants to win.
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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2016, 07:59:46 PM »

Online Moranis

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I think the Thunder's chances at a title were much less than 10% in the next 5 seasons and that is even assuming Westbrook stayed.  Remember there was a lot of talk of Russ leaving next summer before Durant left.  Let's also not forget that the Thunder were just the 3rd best team in the West last year and the two teams ahead of them would have projected to be ahead of them again.  The Clippers could have caught them as well finishing just 2 games back with a slew of injuries.  You've got up and coming teams like the Jazz and a couple years down the line the Wolves.  That doesn't even account for the best player in the world on the defending NBA champions sitting out east.  I'd say the Thunder's best shot at a title would have been this coming year and I'd put there odds at like 7% with the Cavs at 45% (in part b/c the east poses no real threat), Warriors at 30%, Spurs at 10%, Clippers at 3%, and everyone else 5%.  That of course assumes the Warriors returned Barnes, Bogut, etc.
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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2016, 08:00:45 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Quote
We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

I think that's where the disconnect comes from. You equate "competitive" with wanting to coast to a championship without being seriously challenged. 

I don't see it that way. "Competitive" players want to actually compete for a championship, not have one handed to them. What Durant did - leave a championship-caliber team after being a big part of why that team choked a 3-1 playoff series lead - shows a lack of competitive instinct.

Quote
And I was just like a kid, like, 'I'd really like playing with these guys. I'd get wide-open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide-open layups.' I was basically begging him. I was like, 'Yo, this would be nice.'"

Not only does he want an easy title, but he wants the game to be easy, too. Wide open shots, easy layups. The motivation there isn't competitive spirit.
So you wouldn't want Ainge to sign KD if he becomes available next offseason? 

Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2016, 08:12:53 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
We expect great players to be extremely competitive.  We expect them to desire, above all else, a championship. 

I think that's where the disconnect comes from. You equate "competitive" with wanting to coast to a championship without being seriously challenged. 

I don't see it that way. "Competitive" players want to actually compete for a championship, not have one handed to them. What Durant did - leave a championship-caliber team after being a big part of why that team choked a 3-1 playoff series lead - shows a lack of competitive instinct.

Quote
And I was just like a kid, like, 'I'd really like playing with these guys. I'd get wide-open 3s, I could just run up and down the court, get wide-open layups.' I was basically begging him. I was like, 'Yo, this would be nice.'"

Not only does he want an easy title, but he wants the game to be easy, too. Wide open shots, easy layups. The motivation there isn't competitive spirit.
So you wouldn't want Ainge to sign KD if he becomes available next offseason?

Where did I say that?


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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2016, 08:15:32 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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We are at 10% chance yet OKC was extremely close to beating Golden State in that series.... uh okay guys.
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Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2016, 08:29:53 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Shaq left Orlando with a strong side kick as well.

Moses Malone forced his way out of a very good team.

Wilt became disgruntled and was moved a couple of times. 

Kareem forced himself out of Milwaukee to go to LA (and he had actually won a title in Milwaukee).

Magic has said that if the Lakers lost the coin toss he would have returned to Michigan State for his senior year as he didn't want to go to Chicago (and would have rather joined a team with the best player in the world at the time).

Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony forced themselves off of perennial playoff teams.

Great players leave pretty good teams all of the time.  This isn't a new development.

The Thunder had a better supporting cast than all the players/teams you mentioned. And Westbrook is better than the #2 player on all those teams.

Deron, CP3, and Melo all had horrible supporting casts. Did CP3 or Melo even win a single playoff series between them on their previous teams?

D-will is a headcase and a fraud. His 2nd-best player was Kirilenko or a very young Paul Millsap.

Kareem's Bucks weren't great outside of him. Same with Moses' Rockets, that team had a 40-42 record the year they lost to the Celtics in the Finals. That was a fluke. Wilt famously had many poor supporting casts.

Penny Hardaway was very good but IMO not nearly as good as Westbrook. And the rest of that team was thin.

Put Shaq, Kareem, or any other all-time great on the Thunder in place of Durant and they win multiple championships.

Maybe the problem is that Durant isn't as great as we thought, and is more towards the CP3/Melo/Deron end of the star spectrum than the LeBron/Bird/Jordan end. Maybe we expect too much from him, and he was never cut out to be an all-time great.

Re: Draymond Green rips PP
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2016, 08:40:40 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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Shaq left Orlando with a strong side kick as well.

Moses Malone forced his way out of a very good team.

Wilt became disgruntled and was moved a couple of times. 

Kareem forced himself out of Milwaukee to go to LA (and he had actually won a title in Milwaukee).

Magic has said that if the Lakers lost the coin toss he would have returned to Michigan State for his senior year as he didn't want to go to Chicago (and would have rather joined a team with the best player in the world at the time).

Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony forced themselves off of perennial playoff teams.

Great players leave pretty good teams all of the time.  This isn't a new development.

The Thunder had a better supporting cast than all the players/teams you mentioned. And Westbrook is better than the #2 player on all those teams.

Deron, CP3, and Melo all had horrible supporting casts. Did CP3 or Melo even win a single playoff series between them on their previous teams?

D-will is a headcase and a fraud. His 2nd-best player was Kirilenko or a very young Paul Millsap.

Kareem's Bucks weren't great outside of him. Same with Moses' Rockets, that team had a 40-42 record the year they lost to the Celtics in the Finals. That was a fluke. Wilt famously had many poor supporting casts.

Penny Hardaway was very good but IMO not nearly as good as Westbrook. And the rest of that team was thin.

Put Shaq, Kareem, or any other all-time great on the Thunder in place of Durant and they win multiple championships.

Maybe the problem is that Durant isn't as great as we thought, and is more towards the CP3/Melo/Deron end of the star spectrum than the LeBron/Bird/Jordan end. Maybe we expect too much from him, and he was never cut out to be an all-time great.

Melo and Deron both went to the conference finals with their previous teams with pretty good supporting casts, and CP3 made the conference semis.

Just fyi.