When Ainge said teams may regret not taking our offers...

[mmmmm]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

But Lowe didn't report it as speculation.  He reported it as fact with a very detailed outline of the trade parameters.  Some reporters just said 4 first round picks.  Some said 4 first round picks including a Brooklyn pick.  Some said six picks total including 4 first round picks.  Lowe said it was 4 first round picks and he specifically stated he couldn't get confirmation on whether second round picks were involved.  He then identified the 4 first round picks as 15 (in a prearranged trade with the Hawks), 16, a Brooklyn pick (without a year), and either the Timberwolves or Grizzlies pick.  That isn't something you just throw up against the wall.  It is clear Lowe had at least one highly credible source that fed him that information or he wouldn't have reported it in that manner.  Given no one from Boston denied it, I think that is pretty darn telling, don't you?

Again, lack of denial (by the Celtics) is not the same as confirmation.

Whatever level of certainty and believability Lowe projected from his article is irrelevant (other than as credit to his writing abilities).   

The sad fact is, sports media 'reporters' (especially in this area of sports trade rumors) :

a) get fed misinformation (not their fault)
b) regurgitate wrong information reported by others (laziness, partly their fault)
c) make crap up (unfortunately far too common)

all the time.

[alldaboston]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

But Lowe didn't report it as speculation.  He reported it as fact with a very detailed outline of the trade parameters.  Some reporters just said 4 first round picks.  Some said 4 first round picks including a Brooklyn pick.  Some said six picks total including 4 first round picks.  Lowe said it was 4 first round picks and he specifically stated he couldn't get confirmation on whether second round picks were involved.  He then identified the 4 first round picks as 15 (in a prearranged trade with the Hawks), 16, a Brooklyn pick (without a year), and either the Timberwolves or Grizzlies pick.  That isn't something you just throw up against the wall.  It is clear Lowe had at least one highly credible source that fed him that information or he wouldn't have reported it in that manner.  Given no one from Boston denied it, I think that is pretty darn telling, don't you?

Again, lack of denial (by the Celtics) is not the same as confirmation.

Whatever level of certainty and believability Lowe projected from his article is irrelevant (other than as credit to his writing abilities).   

The sad fact is, sports media 'reporters' (especially in this area of sports trade rumors) :

a) get fed misinformation (not their fault)
b) regurgitate wrong information reported by others (laziness, partly their fault)
c) make crap up (unfortunately far too common)

all the time.

Ok then why don't you say that Woj makes stuff up? That what he says is irrelevant? What separates Woj from Lowe? Because what you just listed off for Lowe applies to Woj too then, unless there's some hidden criteria that I'm not seeing. Both are nationally recognized NBA reporters who are among the very elite in their work. Now just cuz Lowe doesn't break as many stories as Woj, we no longer are allowed to believe what he says?

[mmmmm]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

But Lowe didn't report it as speculation.  He reported it as fact with a very detailed outline of the trade parameters.  Some reporters just said 4 first round picks.  Some said 4 first round picks including a Brooklyn pick.  Some said six picks total including 4 first round picks.  Lowe said it was 4 first round picks and he specifically stated he couldn't get confirmation on whether second round picks were involved.  He then identified the 4 first round picks as 15 (in a prearranged trade with the Hawks), 16, a Brooklyn pick (without a year), and either the Timberwolves or Grizzlies pick.  That isn't something you just throw up against the wall.  It is clear Lowe had at least one highly credible source that fed him that information or he wouldn't have reported it in that manner.  Given no one from Boston denied it, I think that is pretty darn telling, don't you?

Again, lack of denial (by the Celtics) is not the same as confirmation.

Whatever level of certainty and believability Lowe projected from his article is irrelevant (other than as credit to his writing abilities).   

The sad fact is, sports media 'reporters' (especially in this area of sports trade rumors) :

a) get fed misinformation (not their fault)
b) regurgitate wrong information reported by others (laziness, partly their fault)
c) make crap up (unfortunately far too common)

all the time.

Ok then why don't you say that Woj makes stuff up? That what he says is irrelevant? What separates Woj from Lowe? Because what you just listed off for Lowe applies to Woj too then, unless there's some hidden criteria that I'm not seeing. Both are nationally recognized NBA reporters who are among the very elite in their work. Now just cuz Lowe doesn't break as many stories as Woj, we no longer are allowed to believe what he says?

Please.  Enough with the straw men.

a) Because I don't know that Woj makes stuff up.
b) Why would I say that what he says is irrelevant?
c) I never listed those things off "for Lowe".   I listed them off as factual conditions of the trade.

For all I know, Lowe reported what he thought was true, as fed to him by a source.   That doesn't make it true.     I have not once, ever, asserted that what he wrote (in regards to the Winslow trade) is or is not true.   I simply have no credible reason to accept it as confirmed truth.   It remains in the realm of rumor and speculation.

No one said you aren't allowed to believe anything you want.   

I, personally, plan on continuing to at least try to separate speculation and rumor from actual fact. 

[Moranis]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

But Lowe didn't report it as speculation.  He reported it as fact with a very detailed outline of the trade parameters.  Some reporters just said 4 first round picks.  Some said 4 first round picks including a Brooklyn pick.  Some said six picks total including 4 first round picks.  Lowe said it was 4 first round picks and he specifically stated he couldn't get confirmation on whether second round picks were involved.  He then identified the 4 first round picks as 15 (in a prearranged trade with the Hawks), 16, a Brooklyn pick (without a year), and either the Timberwolves or Grizzlies pick.  That isn't something you just throw up against the wall.  It is clear Lowe had at least one highly credible source that fed him that information or he wouldn't have reported it in that manner.  Given no one from Boston denied it, I think that is pretty darn telling, don't you?

Again, lack of denial (by the Celtics) is not the same as confirmation.

Whatever level of certainty and believability Lowe projected from his article is irrelevant (other than as credit to his writing abilities).   

The sad fact is, sports media 'reporters' (especially in this area of sports trade rumors) :

a) get fed misinformation (not their fault)
b) regurgitate wrong information reported by others (laziness, partly their fault)
c) make crap up (unfortunately far too common)

all the time.

The thing is, Ainge acknowledged they tried to move up and acknowledged he offered too much and was actually happy he was rejected.  He also was specifically asked about whether a Brooklyn pick was included, and just blew those questions off and answered in a round about way.  If he didn't offer a Brooklyn pick, he would have denied it as he has done with false rumors in the past. 

Also, and this is purely speculation on my part, but the only way Boston could have offered too much and is glad the trade was rejected, is if a Brooklyn pick was included.  Some random sampling of 1st's (which is what all of the non-Brooklyn picks are) isn't an overpay for a guy you have pegged as a possible superstar, like the Celtic's did with Winslow. 

Zach Lowe is a highly respected reporter, that clearly had a high level source given the information he put out there.  He didn't just make it up.  Now sure his source could have fed him misinformation, but why didn't that source feed the ESPN guys that information.  Why wasn't it wide-spread and why didn't Ainge just deny it when asked the direct question if it wasn't true?

It seems pretty clear Boston offered a Brooklyn pick to Charlotte.  My speculation and information gleaned from other articles, that it was most likely the 2018 Brooklyn pick, which makes Boston's inclusion and Charlotte's rejection much more plausible.