When Ainge said teams may regret not taking our offers...

[Csfan1984]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

Yes, but did you ask Chris Mortensen what he thought about the Celtics rumor?

I'm also not completely buying it. There have been a ridiculous amount of rumors revolving around the Celtics. I'm not sure which one to believe, besides Al Horford signing with the Celtics.

I was a huge fan of the Iverson signing with the Celtics rumor around 10 years ago. Since then, I'll believe it when I see the guy wearing a Celtics jersey sitting next to Danny.

Not sure about the actual math, but I would guess around 1 out of 7 Celtics rumors materialize.

When that many sources from that many platforms all say Boston offered 4 first round picks including a BKN pick for #9 but were turned down, I tend to think that is a lot more than just a rumor, especially when Ainge has not only not denied it but also alluded to it (not the exact details but that he was trying to move up).  This isn't just some "idea" a single writer had that gained traction.  This seems pretty clearly like a case where Boston made an offer that was rejected and Boston ends up glad it was rejected in the long run.

Except most sources never named the Brooklyn pick as one of the ones offered. Now there were also rumors of BOS trying to move to the #4 pick and that's where the Brooklyn pick may have been offered. But it certainly wasn't offered for the Charlotte pick.

This is one of those cases where people have gotten confused because of the many trade rumors.

Yup most sources said no Nets pick for Winslow deal. Nets pick was for Porzingis deal. Also it's not four 1st* really. True break down is 2 mid first, one future C's 1st( likely low) and two high seconds because we all know Wolves first would never yield a first round pick.

There was no Porzingis deal. If Danny was able to use the nets pick to move to 4th, he was taking Winslow. This has also been confirmed by Lowe and others. Danny really wanted Winslow. taking him at 4 would have been a major reach and a pretty bad gaffe in hindsight.

edit: here is proof

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14262815/after-lost-decade-knicks-find-right-path

Porzingis was there at No. 4, though not without some drama. The Boston Celtics were hell-bent on moving up to draft Justise Winslow and offered the Charlotte Hornets four first-round picks -- including one of Brooklyn's unprotected picks -- for Charlotte's No. 9 pick. But that was Boston's fall-back plan, sources say. The Celtics initially chased Charlotte's pick with the idea of sending it to the Knicks, along with Boston's No. 15 pick, to vault all the way into the Knicks' draft slot -- where the Celtics would take Winslow. Charlotte refused Boston's pitches, and the scenario died. The Knicks downplay their interest in Boston's offer, though it's fascinating to consider how the draft might have played out -- and which fan base would be chanting "POR-ZIN-GIS!" today -- had the Celtics swooped in for Winslow at No. 4.

however you want to think about this, Danny DID offer the nets pick to charlotte. they didnt take it and MJ is stupid for not taking it and Danny is stupid for offering it.


and...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/boston_celtics_draft_rumors_da.html

According to a source inside the Celtics front office, the team targeted Justise Winslow as high as No. 4, and tried to grab him again when he was still available at No. 9. But a major offer loaded with draft picks – Ainge hinted it might have included at least one of Brooklyn's future unprotected first-rounders – wasn't enough to get the Charlotte Hornets to pass on the opportunity to draft Frank Kaminsky.

I just don't believe that pitch OR Lowe. Danny has also indirectly said Nets picks was not part of final pitch to Hornets. How do I know.. its because when asked DA simply redirects the question to saying he offered a considerable amount for the trade up. If he did offer it why not say yes? It's because he didn't want to look like he didn't try hard enough. So if DA and Jordan deny it I'll accept it more so than sauces. Also C's didn't get a counter offer from the Knicks when they tried a trade up to 4 add to that and the big NY pitch about Porzingis selection was that numerous teams tried to trade up for him. Only one team we know followed Porzingis well and talked trade up with NY that's the C's. They wanted Porzingis for Nets pick. Winslow was never for the Nets just their second trade up attempt to grab a targeted player. People combine the two trade attempts is the issue.

[alldaboston]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

Yes, but did you ask Chris Mortensen what he thought about the Celtics rumor?

I'm also not completely buying it. There have been a ridiculous amount of rumors revolving around the Celtics. I'm not sure which one to believe, besides Al Horford signing with the Celtics.

I was a huge fan of the Iverson signing with the Celtics rumor around 10 years ago. Since then, I'll believe it when I see the guy wearing a Celtics jersey sitting next to Danny.

Not sure about the actual math, but I would guess around 1 out of 7 Celtics rumors materialize.

When that many sources from that many platforms all say Boston offered 4 first round picks including a BKN pick for #9 but were turned down, I tend to think that is a lot more than just a rumor, especially when Ainge has not only not denied it but also alluded to it (not the exact details but that he was trying to move up).  This isn't just some "idea" a single writer had that gained traction.  This seems pretty clearly like a case where Boston made an offer that was rejected and Boston ends up glad it was rejected in the long run.

Except most sources never named the Brooklyn pick as one of the ones offered. Now there were also rumors of BOS trying to move to the #4 pick and that's where the Brooklyn pick may have been offered. But it certainly wasn't offered for the Charlotte pick.

This is one of those cases where people have gotten confused because of the many trade rumors.

Yup most sources said no Nets pick for Winslow deal. Nets pick was for Porzingis deal. Also it's not four 1st* really. True break down is 2 mid first, one future C's 1st( likely low) and two high seconds because we all know Wolves first would never yield a first round pick.

There was no Porzingis deal. If Danny was able to use the nets pick to move to 4th, he was taking Winslow. This has also been confirmed by Lowe and others. Danny really wanted Winslow. taking him at 4 would have been a major reach and a pretty bad gaffe in hindsight.

edit: here is proof

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14262815/after-lost-decade-knicks-find-right-path

Porzingis was there at No. 4, though not without some drama. The Boston Celtics were hell-bent on moving up to draft Justise Winslow and offered the Charlotte Hornets four first-round picks -- including one of Brooklyn's unprotected picks -- for Charlotte's No. 9 pick. But that was Boston's fall-back plan, sources say. The Celtics initially chased Charlotte's pick with the idea of sending it to the Knicks, along with Boston's No. 15 pick, to vault all the way into the Knicks' draft slot -- where the Celtics would take Winslow. Charlotte refused Boston's pitches, and the scenario died. The Knicks downplay their interest in Boston's offer, though it's fascinating to consider how the draft might have played out -- and which fan base would be chanting "POR-ZIN-GIS!" today -- had the Celtics swooped in for Winslow at No. 4.

however you want to think about this, Danny DID offer the nets pick to charlotte. they didnt take it and MJ is stupid for not taking it and Danny is stupid for offering it.


and...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/boston_celtics_draft_rumors_da.html

According to a source inside the Celtics front office, the team targeted Justise Winslow as high as No. 4, and tried to grab him again when he was still available at No. 9. But a major offer loaded with draft picks – Ainge hinted it might have included at least one of Brooklyn's future unprotected first-rounders – wasn't enough to get the Charlotte Hornets to pass on the opportunity to draft Frank Kaminsky.

I just don't believe that pitch OR Lowe. Danny has also indirectly said Nets picks was not part of final pitch to Hornets. How do I know.. its because when asked DA simply redirects the question to saying he offered a considerable amount for the trade up. If he did offer it why not say yes? It's because he didn't want to look like he didn't try hard enough. So if DA and Jordan deny it I'll accept it more so than sauces. Also C's didn't get a counter offer from the Knicks when they tried a trade up to 4 add to that and the big NY pitch about Porzingis selection was that numerous teams tried to trade up for him. Only one team we know followed Porzingis well and talked trade up with NY that's the C's. They wanted Porzingis for Nets pick. Winslow was never for the Nets just their second trade up attempt to grab a targeted player. People combine the the two trade attempts is the issue.

because danny isnt going to come out and say "hey everyone, i think the nets are gonna suck this year, so i wasnt gonna trade the pick". danny is not that guy. danny doesnt ever say things directly. he always goes around the question. danny specifically said "i think we were putting a lot of eggs into one player's basket". its obvious that the nets pick was included in this. however way danny felt about the nets (which is likely, he knew they were gonna be bad), he was never going to come out and say it. thats not how a good GM does it. (also, you cant tell me with a straight face to accept anything that MJ the GM says)

i dont know where you're getting the second part from. I just gave you two reports, one from Lowe (one of the best not just in the nba, but in the entire world of sports journalism), and one from Jay King, a celtics reporter. both of them said the celtics were aiming to trade to 4th to get winslow. getting him at 4 was plan A. plan B was getting him at 9 (which they never envisioned happening because they felt he was an elite prospect who would be gone early). Winslow is exactly the kind of player danny loves, the gritty, defensive, hard-nosed guy on the team. as far as im concerned, danny had winslow over porzingis on his draft board.

[Csfan1984]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

Yes, but did you ask Chris Mortensen what he thought about the Celtics rumor?

I'm also not completely buying it. There have been a ridiculous amount of rumors revolving around the Celtics. I'm not sure which one to believe, besides Al Horford signing with the Celtics.

I was a huge fan of the Iverson signing with the Celtics rumor around 10 years ago. Since then, I'll believe it when I see the guy wearing a Celtics jersey sitting next to Danny.

Not sure about the actual math, but I would guess around 1 out of 7 Celtics rumors materialize.

When that many sources from that many platforms all say Boston offered 4 first round picks including a BKN pick for #9 but were turned down, I tend to think that is a lot more than just a rumor, especially when Ainge has not only not denied it but also alluded to it (not the exact details but that he was trying to move up).  This isn't just some "idea" a single writer had that gained traction.  This seems pretty clearly like a case where Boston made an offer that was rejected and Boston ends up glad it was rejected in the long run.

Except most sources never named the Brooklyn pick as one of the ones offered. Now there were also rumors of BOS trying to move to the #4 pick and that's where the Brooklyn pick may have been offered. But it certainly wasn't offered for the Charlotte pick.

This is one of those cases where people have gotten confused because of the many trade rumors.

Yup most sources said no Nets pick for Winslow deal. Nets pick was for Porzingis deal. Also it's not four 1st* really. True break down is 2 mid first, one future C's 1st( likely low) and two high seconds because we all know Wolves first would never yield a first round pick.

There was no Porzingis deal. If Danny was able to use the nets pick to move to 4th, he was taking Winslow. This has also been confirmed by Lowe and others. Danny really wanted Winslow. taking him at 4 would have been a major reach and a pretty bad gaffe in hindsight.

edit: here is proof

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14262815/after-lost-decade-knicks-find-right-path

Porzingis was there at No. 4, though not without some drama. The Boston Celtics were hell-bent on moving up to draft Justise Winslow and offered the Charlotte Hornets four first-round picks -- including one of Brooklyn's unprotected picks -- for Charlotte's No. 9 pick. But that was Boston's fall-back plan, sources say. The Celtics initially chased Charlotte's pick with the idea of sending it to the Knicks, along with Boston's No. 15 pick, to vault all the way into the Knicks' draft slot -- where the Celtics would take Winslow. Charlotte refused Boston's pitches, and the scenario died. The Knicks downplay their interest in Boston's offer, though it's fascinating to consider how the draft might have played out -- and which fan base would be chanting "POR-ZIN-GIS!" today -- had the Celtics swooped in for Winslow at No. 4.

however you want to think about this, Danny DID offer the nets pick to charlotte. they didnt take it and MJ is stupid for not taking it and Danny is stupid for offering it.


and...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/boston_celtics_draft_rumors_da.html

According to a source inside the Celtics front office, the team targeted Justise Winslow as high as No. 4, and tried to grab him again when he was still available at No. 9. But a major offer loaded with draft picks – Ainge hinted it might have included at least one of Brooklyn's future unprotected first-rounders – wasn't enough to get the Charlotte Hornets to pass on the opportunity to draft Frank Kaminsky.

I just don't believe that pitch OR Lowe. Danny has also indirectly said Nets picks was not part of final pitch to Hornets. How do I know.. its because when asked DA simply redirects the question to saying he offered a considerable amount for the trade up. If he did offer it why not say yes? It's because he didn't want to look like he didn't try hard enough. So if DA and Jordan deny it I'll accept it more so than sauces. Also C's didn't get a counter offer from the Knicks when they tried a trade up to 4 add to that and the big NY pitch about Porzingis selection was that numerous teams tried to trade up for him. Only one team we know followed Porzingis well and talked trade up with NY that's the C's. They wanted Porzingis for Nets pick. Winslow was never for the Nets just their second trade up attempt to grab a targeted player. People combine the the two trade attempts is the issue.

because danny isnt going to come out and say "hey everyone, i think the nets are gonna suck this year, so i wasnt gonna trade the pick". danny is not that guy. danny doesnt ever say things directly. he always goes around the question. danny specifically said "i think we were putting a lot of eggs into one player's basket". its obvious that the nets pick was included in this. however way danny felt about the nets (which is likely, he knew they were gonna be bad), he was never going to come out and say it. thats not how a good GM does it. (also, you cant tell me with a straight face to accept anything that MJ the GM says)

i dont know where you're getting the second part from. I just gave you two reports, one from Lowe (one of the best not just in the nba, but in the entire world of sports journalism), and one from Jay King, a celtics reporter. both of them said the celtics were aiming to trade to 4th to get winslow. getting him at 4 was plan A. plan B was getting him at 9 (which they never envisioned happening because they felt he was an elite prospect who would be gone early). Winslow is exactly the kind of player danny loves, the gritty, defensive, hard-nosed guy on the team. as far as im concerned, danny had winslow over porzingis on his draft board.

I'll keep going off what gms say on both sides since they are in agreement. I don't trust Lowe or King's sources. I 100% believe they combined the two trades. Too much talk and bread crumbs point to no Nets pick for Winslow deal. As well as the Porzingis trade attempt.

[alldaboston]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

Yes, but did you ask Chris Mortensen what he thought about the Celtics rumor?

I'm also not completely buying it. There have been a ridiculous amount of rumors revolving around the Celtics. I'm not sure which one to believe, besides Al Horford signing with the Celtics.

I was a huge fan of the Iverson signing with the Celtics rumor around 10 years ago. Since then, I'll believe it when I see the guy wearing a Celtics jersey sitting next to Danny.

Not sure about the actual math, but I would guess around 1 out of 7 Celtics rumors materialize.

When that many sources from that many platforms all say Boston offered 4 first round picks including a BKN pick for #9 but were turned down, I tend to think that is a lot more than just a rumor, especially when Ainge has not only not denied it but also alluded to it (not the exact details but that he was trying to move up).  This isn't just some "idea" a single writer had that gained traction.  This seems pretty clearly like a case where Boston made an offer that was rejected and Boston ends up glad it was rejected in the long run.

Except most sources never named the Brooklyn pick as one of the ones offered. Now there were also rumors of BOS trying to move to the #4 pick and that's where the Brooklyn pick may have been offered. But it certainly wasn't offered for the Charlotte pick.

This is one of those cases where people have gotten confused because of the many trade rumors.

Yup most sources said no Nets pick for Winslow deal. Nets pick was for Porzingis deal. Also it's not four 1st* really. True break down is 2 mid first, one future C's 1st( likely low) and two high seconds because we all know Wolves first would never yield a first round pick.

There was no Porzingis deal. If Danny was able to use the nets pick to move to 4th, he was taking Winslow. This has also been confirmed by Lowe and others. Danny really wanted Winslow. taking him at 4 would have been a major reach and a pretty bad gaffe in hindsight.

edit: here is proof

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14262815/after-lost-decade-knicks-find-right-path

Porzingis was there at No. 4, though not without some drama. The Boston Celtics were hell-bent on moving up to draft Justise Winslow and offered the Charlotte Hornets four first-round picks -- including one of Brooklyn's unprotected picks -- for Charlotte's No. 9 pick. But that was Boston's fall-back plan, sources say. The Celtics initially chased Charlotte's pick with the idea of sending it to the Knicks, along with Boston's No. 15 pick, to vault all the way into the Knicks' draft slot -- where the Celtics would take Winslow. Charlotte refused Boston's pitches, and the scenario died. The Knicks downplay their interest in Boston's offer, though it's fascinating to consider how the draft might have played out -- and which fan base would be chanting "POR-ZIN-GIS!" today -- had the Celtics swooped in for Winslow at No. 4.

however you want to think about this, Danny DID offer the nets pick to charlotte. they didnt take it and MJ is stupid for not taking it and Danny is stupid for offering it.


and...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2015/06/boston_celtics_draft_rumors_da.html

According to a source inside the Celtics front office, the team targeted Justise Winslow as high as No. 4, and tried to grab him again when he was still available at No. 9. But a major offer loaded with draft picks – Ainge hinted it might have included at least one of Brooklyn's future unprotected first-rounders – wasn't enough to get the Charlotte Hornets to pass on the opportunity to draft Frank Kaminsky.

I just don't believe that pitch OR Lowe. Danny has also indirectly said Nets picks was not part of final pitch to Hornets. How do I know.. its because when asked DA simply redirects the question to saying he offered a considerable amount for the trade up. If he did offer it why not say yes? It's because he didn't want to look like he didn't try hard enough. So if DA and Jordan deny it I'll accept it more so than sauces. Also C's didn't get a counter offer from the Knicks when they tried a trade up to 4 add to that and the big NY pitch about Porzingis selection was that numerous teams tried to trade up for him. Only one team we know followed Porzingis well and talked trade up with NY that's the C's. They wanted Porzingis for Nets pick. Winslow was never for the Nets just their second trade up attempt to grab a targeted player. People combine the the two trade attempts is the issue.

because danny isnt going to come out and say "hey everyone, i think the nets are gonna suck this year, so i wasnt gonna trade the pick". danny is not that guy. danny doesnt ever say things directly. he always goes around the question. danny specifically said "i think we were putting a lot of eggs into one player's basket". its obvious that the nets pick was included in this. however way danny felt about the nets (which is likely, he knew they were gonna be bad), he was never going to come out and say it. thats not how a good GM does it. (also, you cant tell me with a straight face to accept anything that MJ the GM says)

i dont know where you're getting the second part from. I just gave you two reports, one from Lowe (one of the best not just in the nba, but in the entire world of sports journalism), and one from Jay King, a celtics reporter. both of them said the celtics were aiming to trade to 4th to get winslow. getting him at 4 was plan A. plan B was getting him at 9 (which they never envisioned happening because they felt he was an elite prospect who would be gone early). Winslow is exactly the kind of player danny loves, the gritty, defensive, hard-nosed guy on the team. as far as im concerned, danny had winslow over porzingis on his draft board.

I'll keep going off what gms say on both sides since they are in agreement. I don't trust Lowe or King's sources. I 100% believe they combined the two trades. Too much talk and bread crumbs point to no Nets pick for Winslow deal. As well as the Porzingis trade attempt.

i guess we just agree to disagree then (although i believe that GM's often lie to the media, but idk if thats just me)

[KG Living Legend]

 Assuming Nets pick not involved.

 Four First's and Two seconds. I'll mock the selections.

 2015

 #16 Bobby Portis
 #28 RJ Hunter

 2016

 #16 Caris Levert
 #23 Ante Zizic
 
 Two second rounders

 #31 Ivan Zubac
 #35 Kay Felder

 So that's a reasonable outcome for Charlotte if they made the trade, Instead your take just Frank Kaminsky.

 That's six solid prospects of Frank the Tank. What would you choose.

[TheSundanceKid]

 Assuming Nets pick not involved.

 Four First's and Two seconds. I'll mock the selections.

 2015

 #16 Bobby Portis
 #28 RJ Hunter

 2016

 #16 Caris Levert
 #23 Ante Zizic
 
 Two second rounders

 #31 Ivan Zubac
 #35 Kay Felder

 So that's a reasonable outcome for Charlotte if they made the trade, Instead your take just Frank Kaminsky.

 That's six solid prospects of Frank the Tank. What would you choose.

I mean in hindsight I'd take the 6 players but I could completely understand Charlotte taking the player they know in front of them.

I think a BRK pick was on offer but that it was the 2018 pick. If you are Charlotte then you should accept that but again with the pick being so far away it is more understandable. I don't think it was the 2016 pick as however carried away DA is he isn't stupid.

To me the greater mystery is why they passed over Winslow for Kaminsky? That was just odd.

[Granath]

I'll keep going off what gms say on both sides since they are in agreement. I don't trust Lowe or King's sources. I 100% believe they combined the two trades. Too much talk and bread crumbs point to no Nets pick for Winslow deal. As well as the Porzingis trade attempt.

i guess we just agree to disagree then (although i believe that GM's often lie to the media, but idk if thats just me)

You're right in that GMs do lie to the media. Just like reporters are often wrong (how many supposed hot trade deals, including those proposed by supposed top guys in sports journalism, did we see on Rondo before he was finally moved?).

Here's the rub. It makes no sense for Danny to offer the same exact deal to get the #9 pick as he did the #4 pick and then again offered the same deal for the #10 pick.

As someone who is known for wringing out every last asset out of a trade deal (supposed "thrown in" players like Crowder who become starters, trade exceptions, pick swaps, etc.) do you think that the Celtics GM staff would be so gung-ho for Winslow as to offer the same deal for a pick that's historically worth only about 1/2 as much as the #4 pick? A deal that included an almost-certain top-10 pick the next year to go along with multiple #1s and yet both Charlotte and Miami would turn it down?

That's why I'm sure that in this case Lowe - who was the source for everyone else reporting this - got it wrong. It makes no sense to offer that deal. It makes even less sense for two different teams - Charlotte and Miami - to turn it down. So while maybe some reporter says that was the deal, logic says it couldn't have been that because you'd have 3 different GMs (BOS, MIA, CHA) doing something exceptionally illogical for the report to be true. Furthermore, you have both Jordan and Ainge who have indicated that the Brooklyn 2016 pick wasn't part of the deal.

So it's not just a matter of what Lowe reported versus what was said later by the GMs. It's also looking at the logic of the deal, this history of the GMs and concluding that in this case what Lowe reported doesn't make any logical sense.

[Moranis]

I'll keep going off what gms say on both sides since they are in agreement. I don't trust Lowe or King's sources. I 100% believe they combined the two trades. Too much talk and bread crumbs point to no Nets pick for Winslow deal. As well as the Porzingis trade attempt.

i guess we just agree to disagree then (although i believe that GM's often lie to the media, but idk if thats just me)

You're right in that GMs do lie to the media. Just like reporters are often wrong (how many supposed hot trade deals, including those proposed by supposed top guys in sports journalism, did we see on Rondo before he was finally moved?).

Here's the rub. It makes no sense for Danny to offer the same exact deal to get the #9 pick as he did the #4 pick and then again offered the same deal for the #10 pick.

As someone who is known for wringing out every last asset out of a trade deal (supposed "thrown in" players like Crowder who become starters, trade exceptions, pick swaps, etc.) do you think that the Celtics GM staff would be so gung-ho for Winslow as to offer the same deal for a pick that's historically worth only about 1/2 as much as the #4 pick? A deal that included an almost-certain top-10 pick the next year to go along with multiple #1s and yet both Charlotte and Miami would turn it down?

That's why I'm sure that in this case Lowe - who was the source for everyone else reporting this - got it wrong. It makes no sense to offer that deal. It makes even less sense for two different teams - Charlotte and Miami - to turn it down. So while maybe some reporter says that was the deal, logic says it couldn't have been that because you'd have 3 different GMs (BOS, MIA, CHA) doing something exceptionally illogical for the report to be true. Furthermore, you have both Jordan and Ainge who have indicated that the Brooklyn 2016 pick wasn't part of the deal.

So it's not just a matter of what Lowe reported versus what was said later by the GMs. It's also looking at the logic of the deal, this history of the GMs and concluding that in this case what Lowe reported doesn't make any logical sense.

No one said it was the 2016 Brooklyn pick.  Again here is Lowe's exact trade:

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Nothing in there says it was 2016.  It was probably 2018.  That would make the most sense from Boston's perspective and would also explain why teams might not be willing to make the trade.  You drop back from 9 to 15 and 16 and then get two future picks that you have no idea where they will be.  If those future picks ended up in the 20's it would have been a bad trade for the team trading 9.  If those future picks ended up in the lottery then it would have been a terrible trade for the team trading up to 9, but that is the problem with picks so far in the future. 

If Danny didn't offer a Brooklyn pick he should have confirmed that, especially given the most recent Brooklyn pick was #3.  He could say that is why I didn't include them because I thought they might be really good picks and didn't want to risk that.  The fact that he dodges the question, pretty much confirms he offered a Brooklyn pick.  No idea which one, but I'm confident there was one on the table for Charlotte.  And Jordan realizing he blew it isn't going to come out and say yeah I turned down a Brooklyn pick for Kaminsky.  Quite possible Boston offered 2018 and Jordan wanted 2016, which Ainge turned down making Jordan's statement at least partially true.

The reality is, Zach Lowe is an excellent reporter.  He wouldn't have put together that specific of a package unless he had real sources feeding him that level of detail.  And if he got it wrong, someone from Boston would have said Zach Lowe is wrong that isn't the trade we offered at all.  It never happened because that was the trade.

[gift]

Zach Lowe is a very good writer/analyst (in fact, the best right now). He's not really a reporter. Doesn't break news that often. But can often get to the root of a story after it breaks better than anyone else. And even the best reporters get stuff wrong all the time.

Also, if the rumored offer for #9 was the 4 picks plus a Brooklyn pick, what was the offer for #4? Why haven't those details leaked?

Is it because the source was not from Boston? Does that mean the source was from Charlotte? I thought we didn't believe what Charlotte says because they are just trying to save face.

See the problems here?

The chatter may or may not be right, but we can't really know. We can only talk about what we think is most likely. We can't definitively say the Brooklyn pick was in the deal for #9. It was rumored to be by some, but there are obvious flaws with that theory.

[mmmmm]

Multiple sources said 6 picks - 4 were 1sts - at least one Brooklyn pick. 

Simmons said on his podcast the Brooklyn pick was 2016

Multiple sources later confirmed we offered the 2016 Brooklyn pick "in a large package" for Okafor.

I get people are in denial about it, but the good news is we kept the pick and it ended up landing at #3.  Jaylen is a nice prospect.   Teams may regret not taking those offers.

In other words:  No confirmation at all.

A confirmation doesn't require "multiple sources".  It requires one source that is authoritative.  None of those, "sources" you waive your hands around are authoritative.

Lack of denial is not confirmation.

It's okay to speculate.  But for the love of god, please stop pretending that speculation is the same as confirmed fact.

[mmmmm]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

[LarBrd33]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

in terms of amount of sources reporting it, both fall on the "widely reported" spectrum.   If you're in denial about it, you're essentially saying that every single widely reported trade offer is fake.  Which is fine.  Just stick to it.

For instance, less sources reported that Philly offered nerlens Noel for the #3 pick.  So if you don't believe the Charlotte or Okafor rumors, you definitely shouldn't believe the Noel for #3 rumor.

[alldaboston]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

in terms of amount of sources reporting it, both fall on the "widely reported" spectrum.   If you're in denial about it, you're essentially saying that every single widely reported trade offer is fake.  Which is fine.  Just stick to it.

For instance, less sources reported that Philly offered nerlens Noel for the #3 pick.  So if you don't believe the Charlotte or Okafor rumors, you definitely shouldn't believe the Noel for #3 rumor.

thank you

[Moranis]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

But Lowe didn't report it as speculation.  He reported it as fact with a very detailed outline of the trade parameters.  Some reporters just said 4 first round picks.  Some said 4 first round picks including a Brooklyn pick.  Some said six picks total including 4 first round picks.  Lowe said it was 4 first round picks and he specifically stated he couldn't get confirmation on whether second round picks were involved.  He then identified the 4 first round picks as 15 (in a prearranged trade with the Hawks), 16, a Brooklyn pick (without a year), and either the Timberwolves or Grizzlies pick.  That isn't something you just throw up against the wall.  It is clear Lowe had at least one highly credible source that fed him that information or he wouldn't have reported it in that manner.  Given no one from Boston denied it, I think that is pretty darn telling, don't you?

[mmmmm]

If Danny really did offer 4 1st round picks, including a Brooklyn pick, for Justice Winslow, he should be fired.  and no I don't really think he should be fired, but it should be a huge concern regarding Danny's judgment.

That rumor about that was started here at CelticsBlog after misunderstanding the quote.

"And I think people make irrational choices in those situations, not knowing that a 2019 unprotected first-round pick has great value. I think they will realize that. But again, the draft picks that we have, and the young players that we have, have terrific value around the league. Just not on draft day."

Some people thought that since Danny doesn't own anyone else's unprotected 2019 pick he somehow meant the 2018 Brooklyn pick. But beyond pure, unfounded speculation there's nothing to suggest Danny ever offered a Brooklyn pick for Winslow.

Um it wasn't CBlog it was Zach Lowe from Grantland.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/good-charlotte-the-hornets-and-the-sliding-scale-of-nba-mediocrity/?ex_cid=story-twitter

"The Celtics offered four first-round picks for the chance to move up from no. 16 to no. 9: that 16th pick, no. 15 (acquired in a prearranged contingency deal with the Hawks), one unprotected future Brooklyn pick, and a future first-rounder from either the Grizzlies or Timberwolves, per sources familiar with the talks."

Thank you for the clarification. Without getting into the details, let's just say he didn't get his facts correct in this case.

sorry but I'd rather take Zach Lowe's word on it, especially when plenty of others independently confirmed the story.

"independently confirmed"  ?

What does that mean?  I've seen no confirmation from Ainge's people anywhere on what was actually offered. 

Sans that, everything is pure speculation, not confirmation.

by other writers not just Lowe.  It was all over the place. 

Now I suppose that all of those writers all could have had the same sources and those sources all could have been wrong, but when the national guys that are paid to do this and whose livelihood is on the line, all pretty much say the same thing, I tend to believe it is accurate. 

Edit: LarBird referenced Simmons as an example (though he Lowe both worked at Grantland so it is probably the same source).  But that is the thing, no one from the Celtics has denied the trade offer.  If it was really hogwash someone would have flat out denied it (like Colangelo did on the Noel/Covington for 3 rumor from this draft).

See my response to LarBird.

This is just hand-waiving around not wanting to admit that this is still, to this day, nothing but speculation.

Again, speculation is fine.  But call it what it is.  Speculation is not the same as confirmed fact.

in terms of amount of sources reporting it, both fall on the "widely reported" spectrum.   If you're in denial about it, you're essentially saying that every single widely reported trade offer is fake.  Which is fine.  Just stick to it.

Logically, the bolded part is simply not true.   What you stated is just an exaggerated mischaracterization.  A straw man, if you will.   A rhetorical device used when you have no actual rebuttal.   I'm guessing you knew all that when you typed it.

What I do believe is that every single widely reported trade rumor is just a rumor.  Until it is confirmed by an actual authority.