Words from Jaylen's Off-Season Trainer

[LarBrd33]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

first of all, don't ever accuse me of having integrity.  Second of all, it goes without saying (despite the fact I've said it a zillion times) that players can obviously exceed expectations or fall short of expectations.  Clay knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this. We all hope Jaylen going into an ideal developmental environment will allow him to exceed expectations.  He's at the same starting point Anthony Bennett was at three years ago - that doesn't mean he will end up like Anthony Bennett.

This thread did make me doubt your integrity for the first time.

No it didn't.  Quit playing around.  You realized I had no integrity years ago. 

Per usual, I make an accurate statement and people want to argue with me about something else entirely.  I'm not saying Anthony Bennett is a similar type of player.   That's a different discussion... and if I were participating in that discussion, I'd tend to agree with Eddie that Jaylen has more similarities in his play style with someone like Brandon Rush.

What I'm talking about is something different.  I can't help you guys if you choose to ignore my actual point.   Let me recap it for the skimmers.

- Thread is about Jaylen's off-season.  Trainer said he has a lot of work to do.  Trainer doesn't offer any praise for Jaylen's game.

- Celtics4ever says he doesn't trust trainers, because they tend to exaggerate.

- I back up Celtics4ever's statement by offering the example of Anthony Bennett's trainers who have raved about him two summers in a row - yet we haven't (yet) seen the results.   Should be noted here, that Jaylen's trainer isn't actually raving about him - so perhaps Celtics4ever can trust the report that Jaylen needs a lot of work.

- Later, I admit that Jaylen Brown is a similar level prospect to Anthony Bennett.   Both were Tier 3.  Both were extremely raw.  Both were far from NBA ready.   Both were taken higher than expected out of a weak draft pool.   Both were taken early, because of their perceived higher ceilings.  Both were believed to have "tools" that could hopefully translate to NBA skills.  Obviously, they are different types of players.  With Bennett it was his mobility for a player his size, his shot mechanics, his explosiveness, his strength and ability to possibly defend multiple positions.  If he put it all together, the Cavs hoped he'd surpass all the guys taken after him.   Jaylen, likewise, is a blank slate, but shows some tools that we hope will translate to NBA skills someday.  Nice shooting form (though he can't yet shoot).  Has a nice ability to attack the basket (though he's incapable of finishing right now).  He's quick.  He has an NBA body.  He has the physical tools to hopefully develop into a great defender quickly.     Both players had very high bust potential (advanced stats suggest jaylen's bust potential is off the charts), but both had perceived high ceilings.   

- I'm freely admitting that Bennett has failed so far through 3 years.  There's no comparing these two in their current state.  I'm talking about why Bennett was surprisingly taken 1st three years ago vs why Jaylen was surprisingly taken 3rd this year.   Sure, there's other guys who were also Tier 3 prospects taken earlier than expected that were comparable "level" prospects to Jaylen, such as Willie Cauley Stein, but since Anthony Bennett's trainer raved about him - he's the one we're talking about.   There's an admission here that Bennett hasn't panned out.  If we're going to be weary of trainers comments (if one ever actually does praise Jaylen), we should freely use Anthony Bennett's trainer as a cautionary tale. 

All that said, I agree wholeheartedly with the user named OhCanada from nbadraft.net who essentially said that Jaylen has a chance to be a star precisely because he's going to the Boston Celtics.  It's an ideal situation - one that ANthony Bennett didn't have.   OhCanada made a similar point that if Jaylen was going 8th to the Kings as everyone expected, his hope for Jaylen developing into a star would basically vanish.   It's an important thing to keep in mind.  If you have two eggs, crack one over a medium-heat skillet, you have a chance to make a perfect omelette with it.  On the flip side, if you take the other egg and chuck it on the side of your wall - you're going to have different results.   There's no reason to freak out that Anthony Bennett was arguably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown - the results should be different, because of how the Celtics will handle this egg.

[celticsclay]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

first of all, don't ever accuse me of having integrity.  Second of all, it goes without saying (despite the fact I've said it a zillion times) that players can obviously exceed expectations or fall short of expectations.  Clay knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this. We all hope Jaylen going into an ideal developmental environment will allow him to exceed expectations.  He's at the same starting point Anthony Bennett was at three years ago - that doesn't mean he will end up like Anthony Bennett.

This thread did make me doubt your integrity for the first time.

No it didn't.  Quit playing around.  You realized I had no integrity years ago. 

Per usual, I make an accurate statement and people want to argue with me about something else entirely.  I'm not saying Anthony Bennett is a similar type of player.   That's a different discussion... and if I were participating in that discussion, I'd tend to agree with Eddie that Jaylen has more similarities in his play style with someone like Brandon Rush.

What I'm talking about is something different.  I can't help you guys if you choose to ignore my actual point.   Let me recap it for the skimmers.

- Thread is about Jaylen's off-season.  Trainer said he has a lot of work to do.  Trainer doesn't offer any praise for Jaylen's game.

- Celtics4ever says he doesn't trust trainers, because they tend to exaggerate.

- I back up Celtics4ever's statement by offering the example of Anthony Bennett's trainers who have raved about him two summers in a row - yet we haven't (yet) seen the results.   Should be noted here, that Jaylen's trainer isn't actually raving about him - so perhaps Celtics4ever can trust the report that Jaylen needs a lot of work.

- Later, I admit that Jaylen Brown is a similar level prospect to Anthony Bennett.   Both were Tier 3.  Both were extremely raw.  Both were far from NBA ready.   Both were taken higher than expected out of a weak draft pool.   Both were taken early, because of their perceived higher ceilings.  Both were believed to have "tools" that could hopefully translate to NBA skills.  Obviously, they are different types of players.  With Bennett it was his mobility for a player his size, his shot mechanics, his explosiveness, his strength and explosiveness.  If he put it all together, the Cavs hoped he'd surpass all the guys taken after him.   Jaylen, likewise, is a blank slate, but shows some tools that we hope will translate to NBA skills someday.  Nice shooting form (though he can't yet shoot).  Has a nice ability to attack the basket (though he's incapable of finishing right now).  He's quick.  He has an NBA body.  He has the physical tools to hopefully develop into a great defender quickly.     Both players had very high bust potential (advanced stats suggest jaylen's bust potential is off the charts), but both had perceived high ceilings.   

- I'm freely admitting that Bennett has failed so far through 3 years.  There's no comparing these two in their current state.  I'm talking about why Bennett was surprisingly taken 1st three years ago vs why Jaylen was surprisingly taken 3rd this year.   Sure, there's other guys who were also Tier 3 prospects taken earlier than expected that were comparable "level" prospects to Jaylen, such as Willie Cauley Stein, but since Anthony Bennett's trainer raved about him - he's the one we're talking about.   There's an admission here that Bennett hasn't panned out.  If we're going to be weary of trainers comments (if one ever actually does praise Jaylen), we should freely use Anthony Bennett's trainer as a cautionary tale. 

All that said, I agree wholeheartedly with the user named OhCanada from nbadraft.net who essentially said that Jaylen has a chance to be a star precisely because he's going to the Boston Celtics.  It's an ideal situation - one that ANthony Bennett didn't have.   OhCanada made a similar point that if Jaylen was going 8th to the Kings as everyone expected, his hope for Jaylen developing into a star would basically vanish.   It's an important thing to keep in mind.  If you have two eggs, crack one over a medium-heat skillet, you have a chance to make a perfect omelette with it.  On the flip side, if you take the other egg and chuck it on the side of your wall - you're going to have different results.   There's no reason to freak out that Anthony Bennett was arguably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown - the results should be different, because of how the Celtics will handle this egg.

yawn.

[LarBrd33]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

first of all, don't ever accuse me of having integrity.  Second of all, it goes without saying (despite the fact I've said it a zillion times) that players can obviously exceed expectations or fall short of expectations.  Clay knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this. We all hope Jaylen going into an ideal developmental environment will allow him to exceed expectations.  He's at the same starting point Anthony Bennett was at three years ago - that doesn't mean he will end up like Anthony Bennett.

This thread did make me doubt your integrity for the first time.

No it didn't.  Quit playing around.  You realized I had no integrity years ago. 

Per usual, I make an accurate statement and people want to argue with me about something else entirely.  I'm not saying Anthony Bennett is a similar type of player.   That's a different discussion... and if I were participating in that discussion, I'd tend to agree with Eddie that Jaylen has more similarities in his play style with someone like Brandon Rush.

What I'm talking about is something different.  I can't help you guys if you choose to ignore my actual point.   Let me recap it for the skimmers.

- Thread is about Jaylen's off-season.  Trainer said he has a lot of work to do.  Trainer doesn't offer any praise for Jaylen's game.

- Celtics4ever says he doesn't trust trainers, because they tend to exaggerate.

- I back up Celtics4ever's statement by offering the example of Anthony Bennett's trainers who have raved about him two summers in a row - yet we haven't (yet) seen the results.   Should be noted here, that Jaylen's trainer isn't actually raving about him - so perhaps Celtics4ever can trust the report that Jaylen needs a lot of work.

- Later, I admit that Jaylen Brown is a similar level prospect to Anthony Bennett.   Both were Tier 3.  Both were extremely raw.  Both were far from NBA ready.   Both were taken higher than expected out of a weak draft pool.   Both were taken early, because of their perceived higher ceilings.  Both were believed to have "tools" that could hopefully translate to NBA skills.  Obviously, they are different types of players.  With Bennett it was his mobility for a player his size, his shot mechanics, his explosiveness, his strength and ability to possibly defend multiple positions.  If he put it all together, the Cavs hoped he'd surpass all the guys taken after him.   Jaylen, likewise, is a blank slate, but shows some tools that we hope will translate to NBA skills someday.  Nice shooting form (though he can't yet shoot).  Has a nice ability to attack the basket (though he's incapable of finishing right now).  He's quick.  He has an NBA body.  He has the physical tools to hopefully develop into a great defender quickly.     Both players had very high bust potential (advanced stats suggest jaylen's bust potential is off the charts), but both had perceived high ceilings.   

- I'm freely admitting that Bennett has failed so far through 3 years.  There's no comparing these two in their current state.  I'm talking about why Bennett was surprisingly taken 1st three years ago vs why Jaylen was surprisingly taken 3rd this year.   Sure, there's other guys who were also Tier 3 prospects taken earlier than expected that were comparable "level" prospects to Jaylen, such as Willie Cauley Stein, but since Anthony Bennett's trainer raved about him - he's the one we're talking about.   There's an admission here that Bennett hasn't panned out.  If we're going to be weary of trainers comments (if one ever actually does praise Jaylen), we should freely use Anthony Bennett's trainer as a cautionary tale. 

All that said, I agree wholeheartedly with the user named OhCanada from nbadraft.net who essentially said that Jaylen has a chance to be a star precisely because he's going to the Boston Celtics.  It's an ideal situation - one that ANthony Bennett didn't have.   OhCanada made a similar point that if Jaylen was going 8th to the Kings as everyone expected, his hope for Jaylen developing into a star would basically vanish.   It's an important thing to keep in mind.  If you have two eggs, crack one over a medium-heat skillet, you have a chance to make a perfect omelette with it.  On the flip side, if you take the other egg and chuck it on the side of your wall - you're going to have different results.   There's no reason to freak out that Anthony Bennett was arguably a better prospect than Jaylen Brown - the results should be different, because of how the Celtics will handle this egg.

yawn.

Sorry about the egg tangent.  Your comment about being able to see what I ate for breakfast made me hungry.

[Celtics18]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

first of all, don't ever accuse me of having integrity.  Second of all, it goes without saying (despite the fact I've said it a zillion times) that players can obviously exceed expectations or fall short of expectations.  Clay knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this. We all hope Jaylen going into an ideal developmental environment will allow him to exceed expectations.  He's at the same starting point Anthony Bennett was at three years ago - that doesn't mean he will end up like Anthony Bennett.

Same starting point as Anthony Bennett . . . and Kawhi Leonard.  Here's hoping for a career closer to Leonard's than Bennett's.

[Celtics18]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

[LarBrd33]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

first of all, don't ever accuse me of having integrity.  Second of all, it goes without saying (despite the fact I've said it a zillion times) that players can obviously exceed expectations or fall short of expectations.  Clay knows this.  You know this.  Everyone knows this. We all hope Jaylen going into an ideal developmental environment will allow him to exceed expectations.  He's at the same starting point Anthony Bennett was at three years ago - that doesn't mean he will end up like Anthony Bennett.

Same starting point as Anthony Bennett . . . and Kawhi Leonard.  Here's hoping for a career closer to Leonard's than Bennett's.

Leonard went 15th.  Bad example.  We're talking about players who were reached for early at the top of a weak Tier 3 crop.  Maybe Kwame Brown is a better comp.

[LarBrd33]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

Once again, another terrible example.  Paul George was drafted behind 9 other players included Wesley johnson, Ekpe Udoh and Al-Faroug Aminu (all of which wasn't Chad Ford's fault).  We're talking about players who were considered a "reach" at the top of a weak draft class.   Bennett went #1 despite being raw, because of his "potential".   Brown went 3rd (in a two player draft) despite being raw, because of his "potential".   That's a perfect comparison.

Another decent example would be Nik Stauskas.  He was a Tier 3 prospect who was taken at the top of his crop (considered by many a reach) based on perceived potential.  But at least in Stauskas' case he was believed to have NBA-ready shooting.  It's not a perfect comp, because unlike Bennett/Brown, Stauskas wasn't a raw prospect being drafted primarily for his perceived potential... he was selected, because they thought he could make an impact shooting immediately.   Bennett remains the best comp. 

[celticsclay]

I'll make a separate thread about this, but the more I looked into it, Leonard is actually the perfect comparison for Brown.

1) Both were rated as tier 3 prospects but Chad lying Ford
2) Both were projected to go 5-8 by Chad lying ford
3) Both were projected as small forwards
4) Both were said to be poor shooters
5) Both shot the 3 ball very poorly in college
6) Both had concerns about their dribble/handle
7) Both were said to have excellent size and measurables for the next level
Both were brought onto winning teams with respected coaches
9) Both were said to have very good drive and motor
10) Neither one is an undersized forward with good shooting named Anthony Bennett


Larbrd you couldn't be more wrong on this one and I can't say it doesn't feel good to see you embarrassing yourself to this degree by digging in on such an extremely flawed argument. To some, this thread has actually made posters question whether you have any integrity. As I mentioned the first time, the other posting that and your subsequent responses made me question it also.

[Csfan1984]

Bennett the best comparison for Brown? Wow, the hole gets deeper.

[LarBrd33]

Bennett the best comparison for Brown? Wow, the hole gets deeper.

Some would argue Bennett was a superior prospect based on the fact he went #1.  I wouldn't personally make that argument, but some would.  That's typically the argument someone makes when they are disagreeing with me when I say marcus smart was a superior prospect to Jaylen when comparing them at the time they both entered the league.

[Celtics18]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

Once again, another terrible example.  Paul George was drafted behind 9 other players included Wesley johnson, Ekpe Udoh and Al-Faroug Aminu (all of which wasn't Chad Ford's fault).  We're talking about players who were considered a "reach" at the top of a weak draft class.   Bennett went #1 despite being raw, because of his "potential".   Brown went 3rd (in a two player draft) despite being raw, because of his "potential".   That's a perfect comparison.

Another decent example would be Nik Stauskas.  He was a Tier 3 prospect who was taken at the top of his crop (considered by many a reach) based on perceived potential.  But at least in Stauskas' case he was believed to have NBA-ready shooting.  It's not a perfect comp, because unlike Bennett/Brown, Stauskas wasn't a raw prospect being drafted primarily for his perceived potential... he was selected, because they thought he could make an impact shooting immediately.   Bennett remains the best comp.

Before it was all about the tiers?  Now it's all about where the player was drafted?

So, in your game Jaylen Brown can only be compared to other players who were in Chard Ford's third tier yet were drafted higher than most mock drafts had them ranked?

In my game we are allowed to compare him to other players who play the same position, were considered good, raw athletic talents out of college, but were risks due to needing considerable refinements to their game,  like Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.  T-Mac back in the day, springs to mind as well.  I don't know if Chad Ford was doing his tiers back then, though. 

[celticsclay]

Bennett the best comparison for Brown? Wow, the hole gets deeper.

Amen this is the deepest he has gone

[celticsclay]

If we are going with tier 3 prospects who were athletic, but raw coming out of college, I prefer using Kawhi Leonard as a comparison.  At least he plays the same position as Jaylen.

Yes this is the proverbial moving the goalposts by lb. nice to see so few falling for it. Tps around. Let's drink the good stuff tonight fellas.
Great point and one larbrd would never make.

But one he should respond to if he has any integrity.

And while he's at it I'd like to see him respond to a Paul George comparison too.

Chad Ford-
George is the upside pick of the draft and a bit of a risk for the Pacers. He has all the physical tools to be a Tracy McGrady-like player in the pros, but he hasn't produced anything like T-Mac. In two years at Fresno State he never really dominated. The Pacers are swinging for the fences with this one. If he develops, it's a great pick for Indiana. But he also has the potential to be a Brandon Rush-type of disappointment too.

Nice.  Was he tier three, as well?

Once again, another terrible example.  Paul George was drafted behind 9 other players included Wesley johnson, Ekpe Udoh and Al-Faroug Aminu (all of which wasn't Chad Ford's fault).  We're talking about players who were considered a "reach" at the top of a weak draft class.   Bennett went #1 despite being raw, because of his "potential".   Brown went 3rd (in a two player draft) despite being raw, because of his "potential".   That's a perfect comparison.

Another decent example would be Nik Stauskas.  He was a Tier 3 prospect who was taken at the top of his crop (considered by many a reach) based on perceived potential.  But at least in Stauskas' case he was believed to have NBA-ready shooting.  It's not a perfect comp, because unlike Bennett/Brown, Stauskas wasn't a raw prospect being drafted primarily for his perceived potential... he was selected, because they thought he could make an impact shooting immediately.   Bennett remains the best comp.

Before it was all about the tiers?  Now it's all about where the player was drafted?

So, in your game Jaylen Brown can only be compared to other players who were in Chard Ford's third tier yet were drafted higher than most mock drafts had them ranked?

In my game we are allowed to compare him to other players who play the same position, were considered good, raw athletic talents out of college, but were risks due to needing considerable refinements to their game,  like Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.  T-Mac back in the day, springs to mind as well.  I don't know if Chad Ford was doing his tiers back then, though.

Exactly. Classic LB.

[Csfan1984]

Bennett the best comparison for Brown? Wow, the hole gets deeper.

Some would argue Bennett was a superior prospect based on the fact he went #1.  I wouldn't personally make that argument, but some would.  That's typically the argument someone makes when they are disagreeing with me when I say marcus smart was a superior prospect to Jaylen when comparing them at the time they both entered the league.

Keep on digging

[celticsclay]

Bennett the best comparison for Brown? Wow, the hole gets deeper.

Some would argue Bennett was a superior prospect based on the fact he went #1.  I wouldn't personally make that argument, but some would.  That's typically the argument someone makes when they are disagreeing with me when I say marcus smart was a superior prospect to Jaylen when comparing them at the time they both entered the league.

Keep on digging

How deep can you go lb? Im a grab some popcorn