Author Topic: Horford and KO as starters  (Read 7025 times)

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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2016, 03:40:18 AM »

Offline greece66

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Could be very good. Both guys can stretch the floor. Good bbiq. Work hard.  On the defensive end, KO can roam around with confidence that Horford can secure defensive rebounds/protect the rim better than anyone he has played with before.
Unless there is another trade or signing, I expect Amir and Horford to get most mins among our bigs.

But a line up with Sully and Horford could be useful under certain circumstances.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 03:54:24 AM by greece666 »

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2016, 05:32:19 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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I must say, the amount of joy you seem to take in just ripping on Cs players is a bit baffling, but I suppose thats just the writing style.

Honestly, I don't take any joy in it, at all, as I find Smart to be infuriating, but I do try to blend criticism with humor so that everything isn't so serious all the time and we don't descend into personal attacks on here.  Is that okay, lol ;D?

Quote
Its not about making a few great passes. Its not about olynyk being able to jump high and stay with guys on the perimeter. When Olynyk is on the court Boston tends to be a better team. This is because he consistently makes the right pass, and is in the right place on both offense and defense.

I'm sure that the advanced stats back this up, in addition to KO's supposed defensive impact, but I don't buy into analytics, for the most part, one, and two, even if the team does function better with him on the floor, it never lasts because of his propensity to get into foul trouble, unfortunately, although he did commit fewer fouls this year, iirc.

Pretty sure you just used foul trouble as the independent variable (and defensive impact as the dependent variable) just then. It's OK if you just want to experiment with analytics, doesn't mean you need to label yourself as "an analytics guy" with all your buddies.  :D

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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2016, 07:40:59 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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KO has not earned the starter, if anything Jonas will be ahead of him because of the ATL series.   I too, think it will be Amir and Al Horford though.

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2016, 07:55:45 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Could be very good. Both guys can stretch the floor. Good bbiq. Work hard.  On the defensive end, KO can roam around with confidence that Horford can secure defensive rebounds/protect the rim better than anyone he has played with before.
Unless there is another trade or signing, I expect Amir and Horford to get most mins among our bigs.

But a line up with Sully and Horford could be useful under certain circumstances.

Ummm, Sully is gone... :)

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2016, 08:23:24 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Haven't read the entire thread, but that sounds like a pretty mediocre rebounding frontcourt.  Amir is not a great rebounder either.  However...

The real question is, how important is a great rebounding frontcourt these days?  It seems like wings and guards are helping out with rebounding more and more in the modern NBA, as frontcourt players stretch themselves out to the perimeter.

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2016, 08:31:23 AM »

Offline NHCelticsFan

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I could see the combination of Horford and Olynyk having a really good +/- rating.  KO adds a lot to a lineup, even if he isn't scoring points.  He can stretch the floor offensively which allows for more room for everyone else, and his defense has improved a lot without necessarily getting credit for it.  I could see that being a good overall combination for the C's, especially on the offensive end.  Defensively it would not help our rebounding much, but man would that be a good combo offensively!

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2016, 08:52:29 AM »

Offline max215

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Haven't read the entire thread, but that sounds like a pretty mediocre rebounding frontcourt.  Amir is not a great rebounder either.  However...

The real question is, how important is a great rebounding frontcourt these days?  It seems like wings and guards are helping out with rebounding more and more in the modern NBA, as frontcourt players stretch themselves out to the perimeter.

Our rebounding is going to be suspect, especially when you consider that IT and AB will start as well. Crowder will be the only plus-rebounder in the starting lineup. However, if we ever need rebounding, Smart-Brown-Crowder-Amir-Horford would be a decent lineup with plus-rebounding at 1-3.
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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2016, 08:56:05 AM »

Offline max215

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Big year for KO.

Please, god, also make it the last year, lol ;D.

Why? He may not be dominant or a star, but KO is very good.

At what, lol ;D?  Shooting 3s when he's able to stay out of his own way?

Basketball.

When he plays in Toronto and/or in front of his parents, maybe, but he's simply too foul prone, a poor rebounder, and can't score in the post nor block shots.  I don't care for people saying that he was a 'wimp' or some sexist statement equivalent of 'girly man', like what happened during the playoffs, but he's just not that good, imo.  Even Swedish meatballs has surpassed him in the rotation.  Ugh.  I never understood the selection of Nolynyk and he's quite frustrating to watch, just go look over the game threads from this past season if you don't believe me, lol ;D. The only time where it looked like we might have had something in him was during the final 3 games of his rookie year, so naturally, everyone thought that he would improve in 14-15, only to see him revert to form, unfortunately :-\. Sigh.  Ainge drafts the weirdest players, imo.  A seven footer in KO with t-rex arms, undersized power forwards who may or may not have weight problems, combo guards who can't shoot, and dudes like James Young who don't work hard.  It's like the Island of Misfit Toys of the NBA, lol ;D.

Here are the last 3 games of Nolynyk's rookie year, btw -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE6VoHdgoag (he even crossed Zeller, lol ;D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWHcL1cqLRY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5KXqA5GOd0

But yeah, Tommy, he's going to be like Dirk (sarcasm) ::).

I was active in about 75 regular season game threads this year, and your opinion is nowhere near the consensus you think it is. Most believe that Olynyk, while maddeningly inconsistent, is a very talented and intelligent player, who takes our offense to a different level through spacing, passing, and shot-making. Maybe you're suffering from recency bias since KO was terrible post-injury, but the idea that Olynyk is a bad player is just plain false.

I never said that the opinion in the game threads reflected my view of the guy.  What I said is that many people expressed their frustrations many nights with the guy for being so, well, frustrating to watch, and no, like I said, I'm not taking the postseason into account because of his injury.  That's not fair, imo.  Aside from the first half of game 1 against the Cavs in 2015, though, he hasn't even been able to stay on the court in the playoffs because of his defense and rebounding, I'm assuming.  Surely you remember him spending most of that series on the bench, right? 

And yes, he has made some great passes in his time here.  Maybe not a ton of them, but I'll give the guy credit for that.  He just looks slower than molasses going up a hill in January, unfortunately, lol ;D. Sigh.

If you can't see that the team plays better with him on the court and you don't believe the analytics that confirm this, then I don't know what to tell you. Frustrating, inconsistent, foul-prone. All of these are fair and apt criticisms, but bad Kelly is not.
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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2016, 09:39:11 AM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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I'm not sure about starting the game, but I think a frontcourt of Crowder, Olynyk and Horford could be very good, both offensively and defensively.

On offense, that would mean you'd have five guys on the court (with IT and Bradley at guard) who can shoot the 3 well. All five can put it on the floor, make plays, pass. Olynyk really is one of the most unique players in the league in that regard, as a guy at 7-feet who can dribble, pass, shoot from distance, etc.

On defense, it's about switchability. You may think Olynyk is just a big lead-footed ogre, but you're mistaken. He's very agile and has good feet for a guy his size, and has good positioning on defense. I think that's why he rates highly in advanced defensive metrics. He's usually in the right position, helps effectively, rotates, etc.

Surferdad above asked the question of how good a rebounding duo that would be, and if it would even matter. I wonder that too, but given Brad's penchant for statistics, I trust him to figure it out. Same with shot blocking. Horford isn't exactly Dikembe Mutombo, but he's a superb defender who can guard guys in the paint or on the perimeter. I would venture to say that even without a pure shot-blocker on the floor, that'd still be a good defensive lineup against ball movement-based offenses (most of the league), even as it might get eaten up by the Greg Monroes and Jahlil Okafors of the league.
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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2016, 09:55:41 AM »

Offline greece66

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And I didn't want to get rid of Serena Williams 'at any cost', but whatever you say ::).

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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2016, 01:26:32 PM »

Offline ThePaintedArea

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Could be very good. Both guys can stretch the floor. Good bbiq. Work hard.  On the defensive end, KO can roam around with confidence that Horford can secure defensive rebounds/protect the rim better than anyone he has played with before.

Good thinking - one reason they got Horford was to open up the floor more.

But Amir is a more likely partner as starter; at this point Horford and Olynyk are best at guarding 5's. In addition, Olynyk's deficiencies are less exposed coming off the bench.

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2016, 01:44:40 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I'm in favor of starting Horford and KO next to each other. Having a 4 and a 5 that can shoot would really space the floor for Isaiah to get to the hoop. Olynyk is a good position defender, so I think they could survive defensively.

I don't think it will happen, at least not to start the year. Olynyk might still be rehabbing after his injury during training camp. So Kelly might not have the opportunity to win the job in training camp. I expect Amir to start next to Horford to start the year.
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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2016, 02:07:16 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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I must say, the amount of joy you seem to take in just ripping on Cs players is a bit baffling, but I suppose thats just the writing style.

Honestly, I don't take any joy in it, at all, as I find Smart to be infuriating, but I do try to blend criticism with humor so that everything isn't so serious all the time and we don't descend into personal attacks on here.  Is that okay, lol ;D?
lol, it doesnt seem to be quite working that way does it?

Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2016, 02:10:04 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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I think they should play a lot together at the least and they should start as well.  I think Amir can play with Horford but I like Amir playing back up C (where he is our best option in that role) most.

Horford can cover some of Olynyk's issues and the passing and shooting skill from both combined on offense would be huge, as well as the space created on the floor.  I would love to come out firing more instead of so often being down in a game before our bench would come in like last year.
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Re: Horford and KO as starters
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2016, 02:11:21 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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Pretty sure you just used foul trouble as the independent variable (and defensive impact as the dependent variable) just then. It's OK if you just want to experiment with analytics, doesn't mean you need to label yourself as "an analytics guy" with all your buddies.  :D

PS. Is the YouTube songstress a relative? Just curious.. PM if you don't want to have your relationship known!

Lol, TP ;D. I used to be/still am a numbers guy, but I just think that all of this advanced stuff is a road to nowhere and leads to paralysis by over-analysis, ie., missing the big picture, imo.  I'm talking about stuff like the Carmelo projections, real plus/minus, plus minus, and all of the ridiculously complicated formulas that yield virtually nothing, imo.  Guys like Ainge and Morey, and I guess Zarren, especially, are trying to quantify a game with too many variables, imo, and try as they might, there is no on base percentage for basketball.  The game just doesn't work that way, imo.  I do think that it's helpful to know how many miles a guy has run over the course of a year so that you can manage their performance and/or see why they're tired, or you could take the easy way out and look at how many minutes they've played, which usually produces the same result, imo.

Lma0 at 'the YouTube songress', btw, and no, she is not a relative.  If only she was as talented musically as Eddie20 is at insulting people (sarcasm) ::).

I must say, the amount of joy you seem to take in just ripping on Cs players is a bit baffling, but I suppose thats just the writing style.

Honestly, I don't take any joy in it, at all, as I find Smart to be infuriating, but I do try to blend criticism with humor so that everything isn't so serious all the time and we don't descend into personal attacks on here.  Is that okay, lol ;D?
lol, it doesnt seem to be quite working that way does it?

I guess not, lol ;D.

I'm not sure about starting the game, but I think a frontcourt of Crowder, Olynyk and Horford could be very good, both offensively and defensively.

On offense, that would mean you'd have five guys on the court (with IT and Bradley at guard) who can shoot the 3 well. All five can put it on the floor, make plays, pass. Olynyk really is one of the most unique players in the league in that regard, as a guy at 7-feet who can dribble, pass, shoot from distance, etc.

On defense, it's about switchability. You may think Olynyk is just a big lead-footed ogre, but you're mistaken. He's very agile and has good feet for a guy his size, and has good positioning on defense. I think that's why he rates highly in advanced defensive metrics. He's usually in the right position, helps effectively, rotates, etc.

Surferdad above asked the question of how good a rebounding duo that would be, and if it would even matter. I wonder that too, but given Brad's penchant for statistics, I trust him to figure it out. Same with shot blocking. Horford isn't exactly Dikembe Mutombo, but he's a superb defender who can guard guys in the paint or on the perimeter. I would venture to say that even without a pure shot-blocker on the floor, that'd still be a good defensive lineup against ball movement-based offenses (most of the league), even as it might get eaten up by the Greg Monroes and Jahlil Okafors of the league.

I don't think that he's unique, at all, quite honestly.  Not with how the game has seemingly become almost completely inverted, imo.  30+ years ago, a big guy who could hit 3s was obviously a unique weapon to have, even if they couldn't dribble like KO does, etc., but nowadays, almost every big guy is a 'stretch big' ::). What's rare are the guys who can, and actually like to, play in the post, imo.

On whom can he switch, btw?  I'll give you that he does almost always seem to be in the right place, defensively, which, as you said, is probably why he ranks so high in certain defensive metrics, but he doesn't have anywhere near the quickness to stay with someone on the perimeter in the event of a switch, imo, nor is he a threat to block the guys' shot because of his t-rex arms, lol ;D. I'm not sure which is worse, though - having him guard on the perimeter or rely on him to rebound, lol ;D. Ugh.

If you can't see that the team plays better with him on the court and you don't believe the analytics that confirm this, then I don't know what to tell you. Frustrating, inconsistent, foul-prone. All of these are fair and apt criticisms, but bad Kelly is not.

Are these the defensive metrics or whatever?  I'll gladly look at them, although I don't place much, if any, value in them as of right now, but you never know, maybe I'll change my mind. 

In the meantime, the only statistical breakdown that interests me as far as Nolynyk is concerned is this graphic that someone posted in a game thread during the season, ahahaha ;D.