Rumor: Celtics, among others, in contact with Sixers about Noel/Okafor

[adam.jones614]

**** at these one-sided draft proposals. 

Okafor for the #3 pick is fair value for both sides.  People need to lay off the crack pipe with the sixers needing to throw in much more. Indeed, they may have enough to get BOTH Simmons and Dunn but time will tell.

Now, that doesn't mean we need to do the trade because maybe we prefer the player we can get at #3.  Up to Danny, assuming any of this is true.  But so annoyed at ridiculous fans.  You can bet that any trade a fan would make is going to be one-sided.

But many experts agree that Philly will have to send out more than Oakafor.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion.  But it flies against pretty basic logic.  If okafor was in this draft, he'd be in the conversation for the top 2 and I think he'd pretty much be a slam dunk for #3.

Now maybe Danny doesn't like him.  Or maybe he doesn't think he fits.  In that case don't even consider a trade. But the value is about right for #3.  That's all I'm saying.

I'm not so sure that's true. I think Okafor would be a top 5/6 pick in this draft, but it's not like he has Simmons/Ingram potential. Just like he didn't have KAT potential last year.

Beyond that, It's a different situation. Okafor isn't a "prospect" being judged without any NBA experience. His rookie year is over. What we learned from that year is that, for one, he'll NEVER be able to defend any switches onto 4's in this league (a vital requirement for a CBS big), nor has he shown an ability to efficiently headline an offense, which he had the chance to do in Philly. Kid consistently takes on double or triple teams in the post instead of passing out to the open shooter, and he's too poor of an outside shooter to be effective without the ball.

After a year in the NBA, we've learned that Okafor is nothing more than a new age Al Jefferson. Would you trade your best asset for a 20 year old Big Al? I didn't think so.

We must have been watching two different players. I saw a monster on the offensive end. The dude averaged 17 in his rookie year when being asked to completely carry a sad team on the offensive end. If he had even halfway decent back court players I bet he explodes. Plus his defense is extremely underrated IMO. 1-1 he is at least serviceable and gets rebounds at a decent rate. Would I trade the #3 for a probable 20-10 guy? Hell yes

[crimson_stallion]

Now CSN is saying #3 pick for one of Noel/Okafor. Said Ford is reporting (guessing) AB for one of them.

im having trouble interpreting this post.

It's not the post, Thats what they said on Sports tonight.

 And yeah it didn't make sense. I don't think Ford is on top of this. AB for Okafor/Noel doesn't get Philly what they want which is Dunn. #3 gets you Okafor, MAYBE Noel, DA wants a bit more. Which he should, he's not the one seeking out the pick.

So we're at a point now where Boston would struggle to get Nerlens Noel for the #3 pick?  Interesting.

Honestly I'd be happy with either.  I'd love to have Noel.  It's comical to me people think Okafor is not worth the #3, but Nerlens is worth more than #3.  When you consider that this is the last year of Noels' rookie contract, it's pretty funny.

I'm looking forward to Thursday so I can stop reading stupid things one way or the other.

Keep the pick.  Trade it.  Whatever.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=84922.0

"Jeff Teague or trade Okafor for the 3rd pick and draft Sunn? Dunn vs Teague? I like dunn

Kyler: You are assuming thats possible to do... Boston not moving the 3 just for Okafor, would take a lot more."

Yeah.  That was the same day Kyler said Okafor was better than every prospect available at #3 and that it wasn't even close.  So that was pretty funny.

If Philly decides they are willing to move Okafor for #3, I expect us to take it - unless we have some grander plan in place to trade the 3rd pick as a means to lure Kevin Durant.  Otherwise, it's a pretty easy decision to make.  You grab the BPA - and that's Okafor.

There comes a time when you just have to admit you're wrong. And you're believing Tim Welsh's report. Is he even reliable?

K... if we land Okafor for less than the #3 pick I'll admit I am wrong - in between tears of pure joy.   Until then... I'll believe it when I see it.  PM me in a few days if we get Okafor for less than the #3 pick.  Until then, hold off on your proclamations I'm wrong, because you read some posturing leading up to the draft.

We've been prepared to give up more than that pick for Okafor for over a year.   As recently as the trade deadline, we were trying to trade a large package including the pick for Okafor.  If Boston is saying they need a "lot more" than just Okafor for the #3 pick - they lyin.  Likely just some nonsense trying to drive up the price of the pick with hopes of using it for a bigger fish than Okafor - like Cousins.

If we don't have a shot to land a established star for the pick, and Philly offers us Okafor for #3, I expect us to do it

That's not the point because you are already wrong with your prediction. You said it would take more than the #3 overall pick

Based on reports, we offered more than the Brooklyn pick for Okafor at the deadline. 

It is what it is, man.   If Philly is now willing to take just the #3 pick - good for us.  But I seriously doubt they are taking less than the #3 pick.  We'll see.

What you need to understand is that, at the deadline, the Brooklyn pick had uncertain value.

* Could a major injury or two from another team cause other teams to drop, and Brooklyn (hence) to rise? 

* Could Brooklyn somehow pull of a surprise trade to slightly improve the team - just enough for them to jump 2 or 3 positions int he rankings and dump the value of the pick?

* Even if Brooklyn remained in the #3 spot, the draft lottery could well see that pick drop down to #5 or #6.

With all this uncertainty, it's perfectly logical that the Brooklyn pick was going to have significantly less value at the trade deadline then it does now that we KNOW for certain it's a #3 pick.

Now if there happens to be a team who is really high on Dunn, Hield, Brown or Bender...that team knows that they might have no choice but to try to trade up and grab that guy, because Boston is high on all three of those players and could easily take either one of them at #3.

Now lets say, for argument's sake, that you have multiple teams in play for that #3 pick.  Lets say:

- Philly really wants Ingram and Dunn
- New Orleans really wants Hield
- Lakers really want Simmons and Brown

Now you have three teams who all really want that #3 pick so that they can lock in their desired guys, so it comes down to a bidding war.  Boston gets to sit back and say:

"Ok - you guys really want this pick - make me your best offers.  The one I like the best wins".   

Suddenly Boston is in control and can dictate the market.

If the Nets pick happened to fall down to say, #4 or #5, Boston loses that leverage.  They still have the potential to draw interest from a team or two, but they have less 'competition' to drive up the value of the pick.

This is why the offers made at the trade deadline have little relevance to what the offers might be right now.  At the deadline the Nets pick probably wasn't enough for Okafor.  Now,  Okafor may not be enough for the Nets pick.     

 

[walker834]

Philly really wants Dunn.  For Noel it's  a fair deal but maybe they will sweeten it a bit.   Brad doesn't need 8 rookies. Brad really seems to like Brown though.  There's also the bigger picture we don't want to limit ourselves as far as the deals we make.

I don't do the deal for Okafor.  Noel maybe. If it comes down to Noel or Brown and we are out of the Butler sweepstakes that's a tough one.

Otherwise I just draft Brown. It's a Brad Stevens pick.

Either way we improve our talent level and get out of the first round. We have more picks coming too.

If Philly will do a deal where we can get a couple guys and unload some of these extra picks we have that is also attractive.

[adam.jones614]

Jeez I do not understand the Noel>Okafor thing. The only way that makes any sense is if we also get a guy like Love or Ryan Anderson or a shooter for a big. The guy just seems so average to me and Okafor a future All Star

[walker834]

If we get Noel and Saric and can unload some of these extra picks though.  I don't like it that much myself. Not jumping for joy yet but it's not horrible. Saric is a more developed Bender although I think BEnder is the better player.  It's kind of meh but makes some sense.

We get 2 good players vs 1 and 7 which just seems like crazyness to me.  It would make us a contender with more picks coming.  We'd get out of the 1st round and have more picks to improve.

[crimson_stallion]

The dude averaged 17 in his rookie year when being asked to completely carry a sad team on the offensive end.

The fact that he was being asked to "carry a sad team on the offensive end" is exactly the reason why his 17 PPG wasn't that impressive.

In Avery Bradley's first three seasons when he was playing behind Rajon/Ray/Paul/Kevin, he consistently averaged around 12 points Per 36.

Once Ray, Paul and Kevin all left, Bradley saw a significantly increased role - his scoring average jumped to around 16.5 Points Per 36 over the next three seasons due to his increased role in the offense.  That's an increase of around 40% to his Per-36 scoring rate.

Over his first three seasons in OKC, while playing behind Durant and Westbrook, James Harden averaged around 17.1 Points Per 36.  Over his next four seasons in Houston (where he was the #1 guy) his averaged jumped to around 26.9 Points Per 36.  Why? Because he was the #3 banana in OKC and the clear #1 banana in Houston.  A drop of around 57%.

Kevin Love averaged 25.9 Points Per 36 as the #1 man in his last season in Minnesota, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became a #3 guy in Cleveland.  A drop of around 48%.

Ray Allen averaged 23.6 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Seattle, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Boston.  A drop of around 35%.

Chris Bosh averaged 23.9 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Toronto, and that dropped to 18.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Miami.  A drop of around 29%.

It's simple common sense - being the #1 guy on a bad team is gong to INFLATE your stats, not DEFLATE them.  So Okafor's average of 17 PPG on one of the worst basketball teams in history (which had no other competent scorers) is not a grand achievement.  Not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not exactly "wow" worthy either. If he were on the Suns or Wolves sharing the scoring load with Bledsoe/Knight or Wiggins, he probably would have been lucky to average 14 or 15 PPG.

Just basic basketball logic there. 

Plus his defense is extremely underrated IMO. 1-1 he is at least serviceable

No, it's not and he isn't.  He had the second worse defensive RPM in the entire NBA, with Enes Kanter (a guy infamous for being the worst defensive big in the NBA) being he only guy who ranked worse.  His defensive rating was no better either.  Ever advanced defensive statistic out there will tell you that he was an utterly atrocious defensive player - one of the worst defensive bigs in the entire league.

Al Jefferson, despite his reputation, was never CLOSE to being that bad on defense.

Oh and you can't blame the team's shoddiness for that stat either, because Nerlens Noel (who played on the exact same team) had one of the league's top defensive ratings.   There is no way to sugarcoat that.

and gets rebounds at a decent rate.

No, he doesn't.

Okafor's total rebound rate of 12.8% is utterly woeful for an NBA center - even more so when you consider the sheer size and physical presence he has.

Brook Lopez has been known for being one of the worst rebounding centers in the NBA for years now, and he had a rebound rate of 15.8% his rookie year, and 13.1% for his career.

Kelly Olynyk (who is far from a great rebounder) had a rebound rate of 13.1% in his rookie year, and has a career rebound rate of 12.4% - Okafor has been rebounding about on par with KO, which is absolutely embarrassing for a 6'11", 270 pound monster who lives in the paint.
 

[chambers]

Hang on a sec, are people seriously suggesting that Danny Ainge would trade the #3 pick for Nerlens Noel?

This is absolutely, positively, 100% not happening.

The whole BS story about teams valuing Noel more than Okafor is to reduce the price of Okafor, but Okafor is the potential franchise big man of that duo at 20 years old.

[walker834]

Hang on a sec, are people seriously suggesting that Danny Ainge would trade the #3 pick for Nerlens Noel?

This is absolutely, positively, 100% not happening.

The whole BS story about teams valuing Noel more than Okafor is to reduce the price of Okafor, but Okafor is the potential franchise big man of that duo at 20 years old.

I don't know.  I was very high on Okafor but they both bring different things.  Noel does some impressive stuff on the defensive end that Okafor does not.  I think Noel is the more valuable piece.  I actually believe the stuff I read these days.  It depends on what it is. But I believe the celtics value Noel more.  Philly really wants Dunn. Brown is a stevens guy.  The C's are up and down on Bender etc..

I watch a lot of footage and tape and read different things and have felt the same way.  What is being reported fits.

It's the same with Blakely and his rankings. They change.  I could just be getting lazy but what is being reported seems pretty accurate.

[walker834]

It is close on Okafor or Noel though.....  It's not as easy as saying NOel is definately the guy.  Or Okafor.  They are pretty similar prospects for different reasons. 

We have Amir.  We also have Sully. Okafor would be an upgrade to Sully.   Noel would be an upgrade over Amir.  They are better players. People cant sit there and say Amir is just Noel.  Both guys would improve us in an area of need.

The trade makes sense that way.

[BDeCosta26]

The dude averaged 17 in his rookie year when being asked to completely carry a sad team on the offensive end.

The fact that he was being asked to "carry a sad team on the offensive end" is exactly the reason why his 17 PPG wasn't that impressive.

In Avery Bradley's first three seasons when he was playing behind Rajon/Ray/Paul/Kevin, he consistently averaged around 12 points Per 36.

Once Ray, Paul and Kevin all left, Bradley saw a significantly increased role - his scoring average jumped to around 16.5 Points Per 36 over the next three seasons due to his increased role in the offense.  That's an increase of around 40% to his Per-36 scoring rate.

Over his first three seasons in OKC, while playing behind Durant and Westbrook, James Harden averaged around 17.1 Points Per 36.  Over his next four seasons in Houston (where he was the #1 guy) his averaged jumped to around 26.9 Points Per 36.  Why? Because he was the #3 banana in OKC and the clear #1 banana in Houston.  A drop of around 57%.

Kevin Love averaged 25.9 Points Per 36 as the #1 man in his last season in Minnesota, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became a #3 guy in Cleveland.  A drop of around 48%.

Ray Allen averaged 23.6 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Seattle, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Boston.  A drop of around 35%.

Chris Bosh averaged 23.9 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Toronto, and that dropped to 18.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Miami.  A drop of around 29%.

It's simple common sense - being the #1 guy on a bad team is gong to INFLATE your stats, not DEFLATE them.  So Okafor's average of 17 PPG on one of the worst basketball teams in history (which had no other competent scorers) is not a grand achievement.  Not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not exactly "wow" worthy either. If he were on the Suns or Wolves sharing the scoring load with Bledsoe/Knight or Wiggins, he probably would have been lucky to average 14 or 15 PPG.

Just basic basketball logic there. 

Plus his defense is extremely underrated IMO. 1-1 he is at least serviceable

No, it's not and he isn't.  He had the second worse defensive RPM in the entire NBA, with Enes Kanter (a guy infamous for being the worst defensive big in the NBA) being he only guy who ranked worse.  His defensive rating was no better either.  Ever advanced defensive statistic out there will tell you that he was an utterly atrocious defensive player - one of the worst defensive bigs in the entire league.

Al Jefferson, despite his reputation, was never CLOSE to being that bad on defense.

Oh and you can't blame the team's shoddiness for that stat either, because Nerlens Noel (who played on the exact same team) had one of the league's top defensive ratings.   There is no way to sugarcoat that.

and gets rebounds at a decent rate.

No, he doesn't.

Okafor's total rebound rate of 12.8% is utterly woeful for an NBA center - even more so when you consider the sheer size and physical presence he has.

Brook Lopez has been known for being one of the worst rebounding centers in the NBA for years now, and he had a rebound rate of 15.8% his rookie year, and 13.1% for his career.

Kelly Olynyk (who is far from a great rebounder) had a rebound rate of 13.1% in his rookie year, and has a career rebound rate of 12.4% - Okafor has been rebounding about on par with KO, which is absolutely embarrassing for a 6'11", 270 pound monster who lives in the paint.

TP Crimson, I wish I could give you 10 TP's.

Adam Jones, read this again one more time for me, cause that about sums up exactly what I was gonna say.

Al Jefferson was a 20/10 guy. And he wasn't as much of a drag on your offense as Okafor is right now. But hey, Big Al was a good player. Would you trade the #3 pick in an average/above average draft for a 20 year old Al Jefferson though?

I wouldn't, we're aiming higher than that. You want more than Okafor if you do that deal, and I'm not sure how much else Philly has to give. Does Covington move the needle?

Me thinks someone cares a little too much about counting stats.

[chambers]

Hang on a sec, are people seriously suggesting that Danny Ainge would trade the #3 pick for Nerlens Noel?

This is absolutely, positively, 100% not happening.

The whole BS story about teams valuing Noel more than Okafor is to reduce the price of Okafor, but Okafor is the potential franchise big man of that duo at 20 years old.

I don't know.  I was very high on Okafor but they both bring different things.  Noel does some impressive stuff on the defensive end that Okafor does not.  I think Noel is the more valuable piece.  I actually believe the stuff I read these days.  It depends on what it is. But I believe the celtics value Noel more.  Philly really wants Dunn. Brown is a stevens guy.  The C's are up and down on Bender etc..

I watch a lot of footage and tape and read different things and have felt the same way.  What is being reported fits.

It's the same with Blakely and his rankings. They change.  I could just be getting lazy but what is being reported seems pretty accurate.

They are both great players, and Okafor in particular is being severely underrated by Celticsbloggers because he played on a terrible team as the sole offensive option, drawing the best defender, with no shooters for spacing, and no help on defense, as a 19 year old rookie.

Noel is a great defender too. Not All NBA yet, but very solid.
But Noel is never worth the #3 pick considering his level of play and the fact that he's got one year left on his rookie deal.

I think to get Noel we could honestly give up something like the #16 + Terry Rozier+future 2nd rounders. He's just not that valuable with one season left on his rookie deal and Embid coming back IMO.

[crimson_stallion]

Jeez I do not understand the Noel>Okafor thing. The only way that makes any sense is if we also get a guy like Love or Ryan Anderson or a shooter for a big. The guy just seems so average to me and Okafor a future All Star

Noel is a an NBA-caliber rebounder at the center spot.  He's an excellent (if not elite) rim protector, he he has the length and quickness defensively to switch onto small players, contest at the perimeter, and show/recover in the P&R.  He's got outstanding physical conditioning and takes care of his body and seems to have a solid work ethic.  Offensively he's very limited and can't create offense of any kind, but he's a solid finisher around the basket who is capable of catching and finishing, is half competent scoring in the P&R, gets to the line at a half respectable rate, and plays within himself - he isn't gong to force plays and will make the pass if he can't score.   He's not a superstar and likely never will be, but he's a very serviceable player who has the potential to become an VERY strong defensive anchor on a championship team- much like Tyson Chandler and Andrew Bogut have been for Dallas and Golden State.

Noel is a guy who is easy enough to fit on most teams, because his only real significant limitation is his scoring (or lack thereof) so as long as you have enough scorers/shooters around him it's not a problem.

Okafor is a major liability on the offensive end because:

1) He has no offensive game outside of the post

2) He is a black hole who lacks the intelligence / will (you decide which) to make the right pass when his shot isn't there

3) He gets to the line at an almost embarrassingly poor rate given his size and play style

In addition to that he is a terrible defensive player who lacks the mobility to defend the pick and roll OR to defend NBA fours...and he seems incapable of comprehending the principles of team defense.

His rebounding rate is significantly below average for an NBA center (hence he's a liability on the boards) and at this current point in his career, he's not capable of stretching the floor with his jump shot.

All this means that if you start Okafor on your team. you basically need to construct a special lineup just to ensure you can cover for his lack of foot speed, his lack of rebounding, his lack of shooting range, and he's completely lack of defensive ability.  That's a LOT to have to counter for - even if he did develop into a 20+ PPG scorer (which he may well do) it's still not worth having him as your starting big if you need to make up for ALL of those weaknesses.

Then thrown on top of this the fact that he's starting to show red flags off the court (questionable conditioning, displaying a questionable motor/work ethic, off court antics) and there are about a million reasons why any GM with their sanity in tact would take Noel over Okafor.

It's just so clear cut and obvious I cannot fathom how others can't see it. 

[chambers]

The dude averaged 17 in his rookie year when being asked to completely carry a sad team on the offensive end.

The fact that he was being asked to "carry a sad team on the offensive end" is exactly the reason why his 17 PPG wasn't that impressive.

In Avery Bradley's first three seasons when he was playing behind Rajon/Ray/Paul/Kevin, he consistently averaged around 12 points Per 36.

Once Ray, Paul and Kevin all left, Bradley saw a significantly increased role - his scoring average jumped to around 16.5 Points Per 36 over the next three seasons due to his increased role in the offense.  That's an increase of around 40% to his Per-36 scoring rate.

Over his first three seasons in OKC, while playing behind Durant and Westbrook, James Harden averaged around 17.1 Points Per 36.  Over his next four seasons in Houston (where he was the #1 guy) his averaged jumped to around 26.9 Points Per 36.  Why? Because he was the #3 banana in OKC and the clear #1 banana in Houston.  A drop of around 57%.

Kevin Love averaged 25.9 Points Per 36 as the #1 man in his last season in Minnesota, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became a #3 guy in Cleveland.  A drop of around 48%.

Ray Allen averaged 23.6 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Seattle, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Boston.  A drop of around 35%.

Chris Bosh averaged 23.9 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Toronto, and that dropped to 18.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Miami.  A drop of around 29%.

It's simple common sense - being the #1 guy on a bad team is gong to INFLATE your stats, not DEFLATE them.  So Okafor's average of 17 PPG on one of the worst basketball teams in history (which had no other competent scorers) is not a grand achievement.  Not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not exactly "wow" worthy either. If he were on the Suns or Wolves sharing the scoring load with Bledsoe/Knight or Wiggins, he probably would have been lucky to average 14 or 15 PPG.

Just basic basketball logic there. 

Plus his defense is extremely underrated IMO. 1-1 he is at least serviceable

No, it's not and he isn't.  He had the second worse defensive RPM in the entire NBA, with Enes Kanter (a guy infamous for being the worst defensive big in the NBA) being he only guy who ranked worse.  His defensive rating was no better either.  Ever advanced defensive statistic out there will tell you that he was an utterly atrocious defensive player - one of the worst defensive bigs in the entire league.

Al Jefferson, despite his reputation, was never CLOSE to being that bad on defense.

Oh and you can't blame the team's shoddiness for that stat either, because Nerlens Noel (who played on the exact same team) had one of the league's top defensive ratings.   There is no way to sugarcoat that.

and gets rebounds at a decent rate.

No, he doesn't.

Okafor's total rebound rate of 12.8% is utterly woeful for an NBA center - even more so when you consider the sheer size and physical presence he has.

Brook Lopez has been known for being one of the worst rebounding centers in the NBA for years now, and he had a rebound rate of 15.8% his rookie year, and 13.1% for his career.

Kelly Olynyk (who is far from a great rebounder) had a rebound rate of 13.1% in his rookie year, and has a career rebound rate of 12.4% - Okafor has been rebounding about on par with KO, which is absolutely embarrassing for a 6'11", 270 pound monster who lives in the paint.

TP Crimson, I wish I could give you 10 TP's.

Adam Jones, read this again one more time for me, cause that about sums up exactly what I was gonna say.

Al Jefferson was a 20/10 guy. And he wasn't as much of a drag on your offense as Okafor is right now. But hey, Big Al was a good player. Would you trade the #3 pick in an average/above average draft for a 20 year old Al Jefferson though?

I wouldn't, we're aiming higher than that. You want more than Okafor if you do that deal, and I'm not sure how much else Philly has to give. Does Covington move the needle?

Me thinks someone cares a little too much about counting stats.

Stick Al Jefferson on this year's 76ers team and the results are far worse than Okafor. It's a trainwreck.

I just can't see how people can compare Okafor's numbers playing for literally the WORST team in NBA history as the single offensive option, with no shooters, and his only help defender being Noel (when they were on the floor together). He had zero help on the perimeter and opposing wings got into the paint at will vs OKafor, leaving him to come over and help or stay with his man and let the opponent score/get to the line.

The situations are just incomparable and considering that Jahlil was 19 years old, he's being completely disrespected.

Anyway, the fact is that Ainge would never, ever trade the #3 pick for Noel.
For Okafor he might, as long as other pieces were included, but this Noel for #3 stuff is hilarious.

[adam.jones614]

The dude averaged 17 in his rookie year when being asked to completely carry a sad team on the offensive end.

The fact that he was being asked to "carry a sad team on the offensive end" is exactly the reason why his 17 PPG wasn't that impressive.

In Avery Bradley's first three seasons when he was playing behind Rajon/Ray/Paul/Kevin, he consistently averaged around 12 points Per 36.

Once Ray, Paul and Kevin all left, Bradley saw a significantly increased role - his scoring average jumped to around 16.5 Points Per 36 over the next three seasons due to his increased role in the offense.  That's an increase of around 40% to his Per-36 scoring rate.

Over his first three seasons in OKC, while playing behind Durant and Westbrook, James Harden averaged around 17.1 Points Per 36.  Over his next four seasons in Houston (where he was the #1 guy) his averaged jumped to around 26.9 Points Per 36.  Why? Because he was the #3 banana in OKC and the clear #1 banana in Houston.  A drop of around 57%.

Kevin Love averaged 25.9 Points Per 36 as the #1 man in his last season in Minnesota, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became a #3 guy in Cleveland.  A drop of around 48%.

Ray Allen averaged 23.6 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Seattle, and that dropped to 17.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Boston.  A drop of around 35%.

Chris Bosh averaged 23.9 Points Per 36 in his last season as the #1 guy in Toronto, and that dropped to 18.5 Points Per 36 when he became the #3 guy in Miami.  A drop of around 29%.

It's simple common sense - being the #1 guy on a bad team is gong to INFLATE your stats, not DEFLATE them.  So Okafor's average of 17 PPG on one of the worst basketball teams in history (which had no other competent scorers) is not a grand achievement.  Not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not exactly "wow" worthy either. If he were on the Suns or Wolves sharing the scoring load with Bledsoe/Knight or Wiggins, he probably would have been lucky to average 14 or 15 PPG.

Just basic basketball logic there. 

Plus his defense is extremely underrated IMO. 1-1 he is at least serviceable

No, it's not and he isn't.  He had the second worse defensive RPM in the entire NBA, with Enes Kanter (a guy infamous for being the worst defensive big in the NBA) being he only guy who ranked worse.  His defensive rating was no better either.  Ever advanced defensive statistic out there will tell you that he was an utterly atrocious defensive player - one of the worst defensive bigs in the entire league.

Al Jefferson, despite his reputation, was never CLOSE to being that bad on defense.

Oh and you can't blame the team's shoddiness for that stat either, because Nerlens Noel (who played on the exact same team) had one of the league's top defensive ratings.   There is no way to sugarcoat that.

and gets rebounds at a decent rate.

No, he doesn't.

Okafor's total rebound rate of 12.8% is utterly woeful for an NBA center - even more so when you consider the sheer size and physical presence he has.

Brook Lopez has been known for being one of the worst rebounding centers in the NBA for years now, and he had a rebound rate of 15.8% his rookie year, and 13.1% for his career.

Kelly Olynyk (who is far from a great rebounder) had a rebound rate of 13.1% in his rookie year, and has a career rebound rate of 12.4% - Okafor has been rebounding about on par with KO, which is absolutely embarrassing for a 6'11", 270 pound monster who lives in the paint.

TP Crimson, I wish I could give you 10 TP's.

Adam Jones, read this again one more time for me, cause that about sums up exactly what I was gonna say.

Al Jefferson was a 20/10 guy. And he wasn't as much of a drag on your offense as Okafor is right now. But hey, Big Al was a good player. Would you trade the #3 pick in an average/above average draft for a 20 year old Al Jefferson though?

I wouldn't, we're aiming higher than that. You want more than Okafor if you do that deal, and I'm not sure how much else Philly has to give. Does Covington move the needle?

Me thinks someone cares a little too much about counting stats.

Stick Al Jefferson on this year's 76ers team and the results are far worse than Okafor. It's a trainwreck.

I just can't see how people can compare Okafor's numbers playing for literally the WORST team in NBA history as the single offensive option, with no shooters, and his only help defender being Noel (when they were on the floor together). He had zero help on the perimeter and opposing wings got into the paint at will vs OKafor, leaving him to come over and help or stay with his man and let the opponent score/get to the line.

The situations are just incomparable and considering that Jahlil was 19 years old, he's being completely disrespected.

Anyway, the fact is that Ainge would never, ever trade the #3 pick for Noel.
For Okafor he might, as long as other pieces were included, but this Noel for #3 stuff is hilarious.

TP.

I don't get it either. They say his stats are in inflated because he was the only scorer but it's so obvious that they are deflated because he always draws doubles and the teams best defenders because there are no other options to score.

Noel is a good starting center/defensive anchor.

Okafor is a potential franchise player with development and a 20ppg player at worst + we need scoring, especially inside.

[crimson_stallion]

It is close on Okafor or Noel though.....  It's not as easy as saying NOel is definately the guy.  Or Okafor.  They are pretty similar prospects for different reasons. 

We have Amir.  We also have Sully. Okafor would be an upgrade to Sully.   Noel would be an upgrade over Amir.  They are better players. People cant sit there and say Amir is just Noel.  Both guys would improve us in an area of need.

The trade makes sense that way.

I'm not sure I agree.

Okafor an upgrade over Sully?  Is he, honestly?  He scores more points yeah - no denying that.  But Sully is a far more versatile offensive player - he can score in the paint (sometimes), he has a solid midrange jumper, he can step out and hit the occasional three, and he's an excellent passer for a big man.

Aside from his greater offensive versatility, Sully is also a FAR superior to Okafor both as a defender and as a rebounder.
 
Sully's conditioning issues limit him to probably 28 MPG which is a big downer, but based on the eye test alone Okafor didn't look like he was in THAT much better shape then Sully was, he didn't look much quicker on his feet, and he only played 30 MPG despite the fact that he was literally the ONLY scorer on his team.

Now Okafor averaged around 20 Points Per 36 for the Sixers last season - Sully has averaged around 17 Points Per 36 for the Celtics over the past three seasons.  If Sully was in Philly last year, playing 28 MPG (as he did for Boston in 13/14 and 14/15) as the clear #1 option, are we so shure that he wouldn't average closer to what Okafor did this year?  Because I'm pretty confident that if Sully was the #1 option on that horrendous Philly teeam. Sully he probably would have averaged at least 16 and 9 in around 28 minutes of play. 

Is Noel a true upgrade over Amir?  Tough call. To be honest I think the two are pretty close on the defensive end, but Noel gets the edge slightly because of his size/length which gives him the advantage over Amir when defending longer big men.  As rebounders the two are about on par.  Amir is the better offensive player by a significant margin because he can his the midrange jumper if left open, he's a better finisher around the basket then given credit for, and he's actually a good passer for a big man.  Overall I would say that if/when Amir is healthy the two are probably about on par, but Noel would get the clear advantage here because Amir  struggled to stay on the court this season because of health issues, and 30 minutes of Noel is much more valuable then 15-20 minutes of Amir Johnson.

So I would conclude by saying yes, Noel is an upgrade over Amir.  However, Okafor is probably not a significant (if any) net upgrade over Sully.