Author Topic: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0  (Read 9181 times)

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Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2016, 07:58:09 PM »

Offline chambers

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I stopped paying attention to Basketball Insiders mocks after a March 2015 one that I found idiotic, and my criicisms proved to be accurate three months later.

That three of them have Skal in the top 7 is absurd.  Kyler's is especially ridiculous.  Skal at 4. Taurean Prince at 9.  Poeltl down at 15.  Diamond Stone at 20, before Luwawu at 21.  I'm going to continue to ignore them.  Maybe they have sources for trade rumors, but I'm quite confident I could put together a better mock draft than these.

They are jokers. I don't have a problem with Murray at #3, but as you pointed out, some of this is just complete crap. Stick to harassing NBA employees for rumors guys.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2016, 08:17:02 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

I think if we're resigned to getting a fairly one dimensional prospect at #3, instead of trying to get a guy who is likely to become the sort of player you hope to get in the top 3, Murray is probably the best choice.

My preference is to swing for the fences at 3 -- even if it's for a super raw guy like Chriss, God help us -- and try to pick up some future role players elsewhere in the 1st / early 2nd.
Yeah I mean... I don't watch the game.  But Murray seems to have decent size (6'5, 207), averaged 20 points, 5 rebounds as a Freshman... and shot an impressive 45%/41%/78%.   Whoever Ainge picks, I'm sure will be someone they have confidence in.  If Murray is the guy they select after vetting all the prospects, I'll be pretty encouraged.  Instead of taking some guy who shot 41%/29%/60% and hoping he somehow develops a shot, or taking some Senior who was subpar for two years until he got old enough to bully younger guys, at least that Murray kid has a College career that can give you reasonable expectations he'll be an offensive weapon on the next level and is young enough to continue developing.

::). Just because you might be older than the guy you're going up against doesn't mean that you're automatically better than he is. 

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2016, 08:35:39 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2016, 08:52:00 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.
You can go even further.  I'm eyeballing the 50 greatest of all time list.  About 75% were great athletes.  And that's because I think guys like John Stockton were great athletes.  But if you look at championship rosters, about 98% of them have major contributors who weren't great athletes.  So, it's a shaky foundation for evaluating picks, especially lower picks.

Step 1: get one or two of the top 5 players in the league, who are likely elite athletes
Step 2: surround them with guys who can really play

The greatest teams of all time had a couple elite athletes.
Draymond, Iggy?
MJ, Pip, Rodman
Ainge
Worthy

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2016, 09:00:41 PM »

Offline esel1000

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.
You can go even further.  I'm eyeballing the 50 greatest of all time list.  About 75% were great athletes.  And that's because I think guys like John Stockton were great athletes.  But if you look at championship rosters, about 98% of them have major contributors who weren't great athletes.  So, it's a shaky foundation for evaluating picks, especially lower picks.

Step 1: get one or two of the top 5 players in the league, who are likely elite athletes
Step 2: surround them with guys who can really play

The greatest teams of all time had a couple elite athletes.
Draymond, Iggy?
MJ, Pip, Rodman
Ainge
Worthy

But doesn't athletisim mean everything??? Looking at you Gerald Green.

In other words I agree with you both...I wouldn't judge Murray soley on athletic ability

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2016, 09:03:31 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.
You can go even further.  I'm eyeballing the 50 greatest of all time list.  About 75% were great athletes.  And that's because I think guys like John Stockton were great athletes.  But if you look at championship rosters, about 98% of them have major contributors who weren't great athletes.  So, it's a shaky foundation for evaluating picks, especially lower picks.

Step 1: get one or two of the top 5 players in the league, who are likely elite athletes
Step 2: surround them with guys who can really play

The greatest teams of all time had a couple elite athletes.
Draymond, Iggy?
MJ, Pip, Rodman
Ainge
Worthy

I'm not sure that I agree on Ainge, but as far as the Lakers, don't forget guys like Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, Mike McGee, and I'd probably toss in AC Green, as well.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2016, 09:12:51 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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Guys who if we take I won't cry like a Porzingokid:

Murray, Bender, Dunn, Hield

Porzingokid:

Chriss, Poetl, Ellenson, Brown
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2016, 10:06:11 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.
You can go even further.  I'm eyeballing the 50 greatest of all time list.  About 75% were great athletes.  And that's because I think guys like John Stockton were great athletes.  But if you look at championship rosters, about 98% of them have major contributors who weren't great athletes.  So, it's a shaky foundation for evaluating picks, especially lower picks.

Step 1: get one or two of the top 5 players in the league, who are likely elite athletes
Step 2: surround them with guys who can really play

The greatest teams of all time had a couple elite athletes.
Draymond, Iggy?
MJ, Pip, Rodman
Ainge
Worthy

I'm not sure that I agree on Ainge, but as far as the Lakers, don't forget guys like Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, Mike McGee, and I'd probably toss in AC Green, as well.
Lol.  Ainge was college player of the year and WAC player of the year.  Averaged 25 a game and led a non-descript BYU team to the NCAA championship game.  Then was drafted as a professional baseball player and a Celtic.  He was tasked with guarding MJ, Drexler or whoever the most athletic opponent was.  He was an incredible athlete.  6-5 and ambidextrous.  People forget.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2016, 10:22:07 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Yes, there are guys who are not stud athletes that can play.  It helps to be athletic, but these guys have unique skills and showed production at the collegiate level.   Why would anyone think a guy who can 't crack the rotation in Israel could play here.   The level of production was bad.   Curry scored a ton at Davisson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJBgFvbod2I


http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/stephen-curry-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/klay-thompson-1.html

Both of these guys score more than 20 PPG a game when they were drafted.   Bender scored 1.5 PPG.

When a guy is not athletic and has production like this

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dragan-Bender/Summary/41582

The smart move is not to take him.  The guy did not produce like the other examples of non athletes. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/dragan-bender-1.html

I would wage Gerald Green has a better career than Dragan.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2016, 11:05:58 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.

I don't see the comparison. Murray doesn't have the quickness either of those guys do.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 11:27:22 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.

I don't see the comparison. Murray doesn't have the quickness either of those guys do.

Really? I don't see Klay as being particularly quick. I see Klay as a decent comparison for Murray actually. Neither are particularly athletic or quick, both are lights out. Murray is the better ball handler, but Klay is the better defender.

Anyone else see this?
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 11:35:30 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.

I don't see the comparison. Murray doesn't have the quickness either of those guys do.

Really? I don't see Klay as being particularly quick. I see Klay as a decent comparison for Murray actually. Neither are particularly athletic or quick, both are lights out. Murray is the better ball handler, but Klay is the better defender.

Anyone else see this?

Eh, maybe coming out of college but the Klay Thompson we know now is a better ball-handler/playmaker than Murray is. Klay is a guy who could very easily score 20+ PPG on the right team, Jamal Murray would need a whole lot to go right for him to even be on Klay's current level offensively, and he's just not gonna be near as good defensively. Klay is one of the best defensive 2 guards in the league.

Of all the guys we could take at 3, Murray is probably my least favorite. He's a good shooter, but a poor ball-handler and defender. Stevens won't play guys a ton of minutes if they can't defend, and though we need shooting I think we'd be better off with Hield if were strictly looking for that. Guy is more ready to contribute in a big way.

Still, If we have to make the pick to keep it, I think it comes down to Dunn, Hield, Bender, Brown and Chriss. If your Ainge, and your keeping the pick, you gotta go with the guy you think has the best chance to be a star. To me that's either Hield, Brown or Chriss. But I can't see all that Ainge and Co get to see.

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2016, 11:42:39 PM »

Offline colincb

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

I think if we're resigned to getting a fairly one dimensional prospect at #3, instead of trying to get a guy who is likely to become the sort of player you hope to get in the top 3, Murray is probably the best choice.

My preference is to swing for the fences at 3 -- even if it's for a super raw guy like Chriss, God help us -- and try to pick up some future role players elsewhere in the 1st / early 2nd.
Yeah I mean... I don't watch the game.  But Murray seems to have decent size (6'5, 207), averaged 20 points, 5 rebounds as a Freshman... and shot an impressive 45%/41%/78%.   Whoever Ainge picks, I'm sure will be someone they have confidence in.  If Murray is the guy they select after vetting all the prospects, I'll be pretty encouraged.  Instead of taking some guy who shot 41%/29%/60% and hoping he somehow develops a shot, or taking some Senior who was subpar for two years until he got old enough to bully younger guys, at least that Murray kid has a College career that can give you reasonable expectations he'll be an offensive weapon on the next level and is young enough to continue developing.

I thought you were high on Aaron Gordon who couldn't shoot at all coming out. Otherwise. I agree on both criteria. I do want to note that Kris Dunn is a 4th year player who lost 2 years due to injury and then was named Big East player of the year and Big East defensive player of the year two years running. I think he should have come out last year because he might have rose into the top 10. This year he might slide down within the top 10 because of team needs; with teams 3-7 already having PGs they could live with.

===

Otherwise:

- I'd prefer Dunn at #3 as BPA > Hield > Murray with an asterisk next to Bender's name and a good trade being the best outcome. Not interested in guys like Brown and Chriss. If shooting only is the biggest need, I'd pick Hield as I'm concerned about Murray being able to create shots. Hield has a quicker release and greater range. The points O'Connor makes against Jamal Murray BTW are similar to the points Draft Express makes. If the Cs draft him though, I'll trust their judgment..

- Kyler's big point against Bender is that there is very little to go on with Bender, Porzingus was pretty much an unknown coming over for tryouts and Bender has far less experience than even Zinger had. I think it's a good point, Bender is a risky pick for a #3 in this draft. If Danny picks him, I trust it's because he sees how Bender's talent translates several years down the road.

- I think Kyler's throwing around names at this point of people he thinks deserve  a closer look after the top 2. Kyler attends a lot of these open workouts just like Ford and Givony, so I don't think he's strictly throwing darts.

- I kind of expect that someone will take a shot at Skal in the top ten. It's kind of tiered 1-2, 3-6, 7-15, 15-35, and out and he's in that 7-15 group. I wouldn't pick him in the top 10, but I'm not picking,

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2016, 12:09:51 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Brown or murray and sabonis. Sign me up

Re: Basketball Insiders consensus mock v5.0
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 03:00:22 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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Knowing next to nothing about College basketball and how various programs, competition, etc impact stats... just purely going off the numbers, my pick at #3 would have to be Jamal Murray.

Listen to Kevin O' Connor's view on Murray and it might change your mind. I personally shy away from guys like Murray who are on the short end of the stick in terms of athleticism. Kinda of reminds me of Jamal Crawford.

39 minute mark

https://audioboom.com/boos/4626834-rainin-j-s-ep-37-draft-preview-with-kevin-o-connor?t=0

Steph Curry and Klay Thompson lack athleticism as well. They're competing at the highest level of competition for the past 2-3 years and excelling in it.

I don't see the comparison. Murray doesn't have the quickness either of those guys do.

Really? I don't see Klay as being particularly quick. I see Klay as a decent comparison for Murray actually. Neither are particularly athletic or quick, both are lights out. Murray is the better ball handler, but Klay is the better defender.

Anyone else see this?
I agree.  Neither Klay nor Murray are very quick.  Steph is a notch quicker, but I'd say Murray and Klay are in the same ballpark.  The problem with the comp is that Klay is, crucially, 3 inches taller and stronger, and Murray only has an average wingspan.  The difference between 6-4 and 6-7 is huge.

I still think Murray is BPA at 3.  He's only 18 so who knows, maybe he'll grow another inch or two for us.  He'll never be speedy though.