Number of Kyler tweets on Cs, Bender, Sixers Trade

[EvilEmpire]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

You don't think Okafor's value in the market took a hit when they changed management? When it becomes common knowledge that the Sixers are moving one of Noel or Okafor, Philly loses leverage and probably won't get as much.

The injury and the off the court stuff couldn't have helped his value either.

Don't forget that the 76ers at the time still had the chance of getting the Lakers pick so at the time there was no reason to deal Okafor for a pick that they could be getting anyways.

[LarBrd33]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

Well it doesnt make sense if you believe 1 report as gospel and base the other's truth value off of it.

It's the difference between a report and an opinion.

It was reported by Steve Bulpett we offered the Brooklyn pick in a package for Okafor and Philly turned is down.

This is someone on twitter saying he believes Boston would want more than just Okafor for #3 - while subsequently saying at the same time that Okafor would go 2nd or 3rd in this draft.

You might consider it a small difference, but it's a difference.  In scenario 1, Ainge himself said he offered a large package for a "a player", that the deal was close, that the other team decided they didn't want to do it last minute - and that they might revisit it again in the Summer. It was later reported that Ainge was referring to Okafor.  Every major publication has since relayed this report.

On the flip side, you have someone on twitter saying that Boston would not move #3 for just Okafor.   If on draft night someone reports that Philly offered Okafor for #3 and Boston turned them down, that's a story.

That deal Ainge referred to was for Butler, not Okafor. Reports of it came out much later, the media initially screwed up imo.

That never happened.  People here wish it happened, but there's absolutely no evidence to support it.

Steve bullpet reported that it was okafor who ainge was referring to when he said he came close to trading a package around the pick for a player.  Later he reported that Boston had made offers for butler.  Thats two different things.  It goes without saying we made offers for dozens of players like butler.  But ainge said one deal came close - and that was reported as Okafor.   You don't have to like it.  You don't have to believe it.  But that's who it was reported as.

[LarBrd33]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

Well it doesnt make sense if you believe 1 report as gospel and base the other's truth value off of it.

It's the difference between a report and an opinion.

It was reported by Steve Bulpett we offered the Brooklyn pick in a package for Okafor and Philly turned is down.

This is someone on twitter saying he believes Boston would want more than just Okafor for #3 - while subsequently saying at the same time that Okafor would go 2nd or 3rd in this draft.

You might consider it a small difference, but it's a difference.  In scenario 1, Ainge himself said he offered a large package for a "a player", that the deal was close, that the other team decided they didn't want to do it last minute - and that they might revisit it again in the Summer.  It was later reported that Ainge was referring to Okafor.  Every major publication has since relayed this report.

On the flip side, you have someone on twitter saying that Boston would not move #3 for just Okafor.   If on draft night someone reports that Philly offered Okafor for #3 and Boston turned them down, that's a story.

Get some subtlety man.  The reason Okafor might go #2 in this draft is that if he were in this draft he'd be a fresh, untainted offense oriented big man that you'd hate to screw up on by passing on him.
Now he's worth less than what he'd have been worth in this draft.  How do you think Bender got to be the consensus pick at #3 for so long?

Eh... He literally says Okafor is miles ahead of prospects like bender.  When he says Okafor would go 2nd or 3rd he's talking about right now... It's clear to most that Okafor is a better prospect than the guys available at 3. 

[TA9]

With respect to the comment on Bender, yes it is a risk because he does not have much tape at this level.  But don't compare his stats to Porzingis, who is more than two years older than Bender.  Need to go back at least two year for Porzingis to get the idea.

Completely agree that's not a fair comp,

Pau Gasol at 18 in 13min 4pts 2.3rb

Porzingis at 18 15min 7pts 2.8rb

Bender  at 18 10min 2pt 1.4rb

Saric at 18 14min 4pt 3rb

Mirotic at 18 3.4min 0.8pt 0rb

You can't really compare like that. There is no guarantee that Bender will up his production if he's given more playing time (let alone him getting as good as the above-mentioned guys in two years). The thing Gasol, Mirotic and Porzingis all had in common when they were drafted was, that they were more developed basketball players compared to Bender today. You kind of knew what you were going to get, whereas Bender is a huge question mark.
Not to even mention that Gasol, Mirotic and Porzingis all played in a much tougher league than the one in Israel, where Bender can't even get playing time  

[colincb]

Kyler: ...You are massively overvaluing Bender and undervaluing Okafor.…  had a lengthy conversation with some folks around [Bender] recently - not good things being said about Bender. …There is so much we do not know about Bender because he does not play much... hard to invest in that scenario. ...Bender could end up being a lot more Darko than people are willing to admit.,,, If you think you have Bender figured out after 208 possessions this year... good for you. Just asking - if Bender is such a game changing star in the waiting, why doesn't he play? Porzinigis over 20 per game... Mario Hezonja around 16 per. Much larger sample size on both. … No. There is a lot of talent there, but talent is one part of the equation.

https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA

Wow.  I'm sorry, but there is just so much evidence that Kyler has done no research here that this is pretty much worthless.

Bender has been on the floor for WAY more than 208 possessions this season for Maccabi.   He's been on the floor for just under 500 minutes (including both IBSL & Euroleague games).  The typical ratio is a little more than two possessions per minute, which means he's been on the floor close to 1000 possessions.

His comparisons to Porzingis and Hezonja are also reflective of a complete absence of research and understanding of the different contexts for each of these players.

I get that sports writers and 'analysts' and of course most fans here look at Bender and see a giant void of information.

But the Celtics have had their international scout, Benas Matkevicius, following him closely and Austin Ainge has made several trips out to see him.  They already know a ton more about him than folks like Kyler.  And they'll have him in for a workout at Waltham.

That doesn't mean they will pick him at #3.   But they aren't going to rank him based on the same level of ignorance exhibited here.

Frankly, this stuff from Kyler all sounds like more smoke from Danny.  Combining this with the stuff from Ford and Givony's recent draft board rearrangements and it all looks like Danny is putting out a mess of different signals.

It may well be smoke from Danny. I think Kyler and Ford both think Danny's a major bluffer and always a wild card.

As for Bender's minutes, you're counting the Israeli winner league games. Not sure other people give that league much consideration as far as being real competition to Macabbi who has won 51 out of 61 titles there.

I'm counting the minutes from the 38 of games he played in in the IBSL (28), Euroleague (7) and Eurocup(3).  That's what any reasonable scout should be evaluating him on.

If you want to start a discussion comparing the competitive level of a league that is predominately made up of graduates of NCAA basketball who are all older, more experienced, bigger and devoting 100% of their time to basketball as a profession compared to the college schoolboys that other draft picks were playing against, then that's a separate topic.

Again, I doubt he's including the IBSL. It's not a great league. Produces little NBA talent, one of the lowest ranked "European" leagues for most of its recent existence,  and dominated by Bender's team for 51 of 61 seasons. You're free to defend it, but those are the facts.

All the Bender hype predates his contract with Maccabi Tel Aviv. Now he's a a boy on a man's team and every one is trying to project him off a small sample of play vs the Eurocup and Euroleague, his junior play. and his talent. Sure that the Cs have plenty of tape and background, but they'd still be taking a SWAG. Bender's experience doesn't compare to Porzingus and Hezonja which was Kyler's point in bringing up the minutes they played against top competition compared to Bender, which may not be clear from my post.

[colincb]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

Well it doesnt make sense if you believe 1 report as gospel and base the other's truth value off of it.

It's the difference between a report and an opinion.

It was reported by Steve Bulpett we offered the Brooklyn pick in a package for Okafor and Philly turned is down.

This is someone on twitter saying he believes Boston would want more than just Okafor for #3 - while subsequently saying at the same time that Okafor would go 2nd or 3rd in this draft.

You might consider it a small difference, but it's a difference.  In scenario 1, Ainge himself said he offered a large package for a "a player", that the deal was close, that the other team decided they didn't want to do it last minute - and that they might revisit it again in the Summer.  It was later reported that Ainge was referring to Okafor.  Every major publication has since relayed this report.

On the flip side, you have someone on twitter saying that Boston would not move #3 for just Okafor.   If on draft night someone reports that Philly offered Okafor for #3 and Boston turned them down, that's a story.

Get some subtlety man.  The reason Okafor might go #2 in this draft is that if he were in this draft he'd be a fresh, untainted offense oriented big man that you'd hate to screw up on by passing on him.
Now he's worth less than what he'd have been worth in this draft.  How do you think Bender got to be the consensus pick at #3 for so long?

Eh... He literally says Okafor is miles ahead of prospects like bender.  When he says Okafor would go 2nd or 3rd he's talking about right now... It's clear to most that Okafor is a better prospect than the guys available at 3.

- That is clearly Kyler's contention about Okafor vs Bender and his belief in this year's draft slotting if Okafor was in this draft.

- Why Kyler concludes that Okafor alone is not enough for the Cs given his opinion about Okafor at 3 is not clear.

- I haven't seen a consensus as to Okafor one way or the other contrary to your claim that most believe Okafor is a better prospect than the guys available at 3. I don't believe he's worth it myself and have seen a number of pundits and a lot of fans say the same.

[LGC88]

Unless Danny or Brad know something that we don't about Okafor, how this player makes sense in our roster and the way we play ball?
I'm still in serious doubts about this Okafor rumors.
Sounds more like Philly's lobby.

[colincb]

Little more fuel for the fire. Kevin Pelton ESPN Stats guru on the trade for Okafor Friday afternoon:

Q: If I were Colangelo, I would rather give up Okafor and pieces to get Dunn at 3, rather than trade Noel/Covington/Stauskas for Teague. Am I insane?

Pelton: Not at all. Dunn fits the timetable better and would come with a much better contract. But who knows, maybe the Noel rumors are a smokescreen to try to convince teams they might make a trade that would cause them to keep Okafor. What we don't know about trade rumors almost always exceeds what we do know.

[Celtics4ever]

: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chris

Ainge has never drafted a lot of Euro guys, period.   This is and was pretty obvious.

[ssspence]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

Allegedly. Regardless, it makes no difference. Who is going to pay more for Okafor than the #3 pick? Hint: no one. So leverage goes to Ainge -- not that i want him to use it, because I have zero interest in JO.

[chambers]

: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chris

Ainge has never drafted a lot of Euro guys, period.   This is and was pretty obvious.

I don't think you can really take anything from these quotes to be honest.
If they're from the Celtics directly, they could be smokescreens. If they're made up, then well...yeah.

I think that Bender not playing much in Europe in his league makes him a scary pick to gamble on, but Ainge is certainly a gambler, and Ainge has never had a chance to draft this high with a Euro guy on the board.

I don't think Bender is at the top of his board, but we really have no idea.

[ssspence]

: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chris

Ainge has never drafted a lot of Euro guys, period.   This is and was pretty obvious.

Ainge had drafted one European player, whom he took with the 60th pick. I do think this has relevance to the 3rd pick -- Ainge is going to need to take Stashable players with at least half his picks, especially if he doesn't trade any. And he's not going to take 5-7 Euros. So it leads me to doubt his willingness to take Bender -- especially considering his smokescreen mission to see him play last week.

[Eddie20]

wow.

Thats the second expert (Chad Ford  being the first) to suggest that it is Boston rather than Philly dealing from the position of power in the Okafor talks.
 since no one has refuted this claim this makes it fact in the LarBrd school of logic.

Sure, let's go with it.  Okafor AND Stauskas for #3?...  I'd weep tears of joy.

Would you rather have Sauce Castillo or Covington?

I still think Sauce can develop into a decent shooter.

I've never heard of this prolific twitterer named Steven Kyler.  I wonder if Okafor, Sauce and Covington is even enough for #3.   Someone please reach out to Kyler and ask if Philly would also throw in the #1 pick.

Kyler was just on CSNNE talking to Draper and Blakely about C's draft options

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/csnne-podcasts

[LarBrd33]

I didn't like this:

Kyler: Bender not the top guy on Boston's board... they are very high on Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss

Not a fan of either one.

So is Kyler suggesting that both Jaylen Brown and Marquese Chriss are individually "a lot more" valuable than Jahlil Okafor? 

Fascinating.

A bird in the hand.... Okafor is certainly safer, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how Chriss could be the more dominant NBA player.

I agree with your previous post about posturing. I don't think Philly can command more than #3 for Okafor in their current position, and they indeed might have to throw in Covington to make the move. But it's not like anything should be taken as real between now and the draft.... it's all calculated bull**** being managed and "leaked" by the teams with a desired result until the last minute.

Back in February we reported offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick for Okafor and Philly turned us down.   This was when the pick still had the potential to land top 2.

Just a few months later with the pick locked out of the top 2, if this guy's opinion is accurate, we not only wouldn't trade #3 for Okafor, but we'd want more? 

Yeah, ok.

Allegedly. Regardless, it makes no difference. Who is going to pay more for Okafor than the #3 pick? Hint: no one.

Maybe.  Maybe not.   Again, people seem to always forget that draft picks aren't the only way of acquiring players.

[kozlodoev]

Back in February, we didn't have the #3 pick.