Author Topic: Bender vs Sabonis  (Read 40860 times)

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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #135 on: June 01, 2016, 03:47:27 AM »

Offline Rondo9

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With Bender and all PF prospects I'm less concerned with wingspan and more concerned with standing reach. bender has a 9'3" standing reach which is good.

He also has a worse vertical than Sully go figure?  If Ingram and Bender are there, rest assured Ainge will take Ingram.

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Bender projects to play PF / C - positions that are highly dependant on physicality.  He's
going to have to try to hold his rebounding and defensive position against guys who are so much stronger it isn't even funny.  He's going occasionally have to switch on to NBA centers, where he is potentially going to come up against guys like:

* Nerlens Noel (7'0", 7'5" wingspan)
* Demarcus Cousins (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 270 pounds)
* Greg Monroe (6'11", 7'2" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Pau Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Marc Gasol (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 250 pounds)
* Joel Embiid (7'0", 7'6" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Jahlil Okafor (6'11", 7'5" wingspan, 260 pounds)
* Dirk Nowitski (7'0", 7'5" wingspan, 240 pounds)

I think he will get muscled but I do not agree that he projects there.   He is soft and wants to play outside.   Watch some video of him.    He could be a stretch four, but a C, I do not think so.  His size might make one think that but I think that he is ill-suited to play the C spot.   He lacks the mentality of a C, sadly he has more of a SF mentality.

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Bender doesn't have the physical attributes to give him a dominant edge so he's going to need to rely on his finesse and skills to give him an edge - and I think his finesse and skills are going to need a LOT of development before he will gain any type of edge from them.

Agree, with your assessment here, 100%.   He has PROJECT stamped all over his forehead.

Just because he wants to play outside, doesn't make him soft and there's nothing wrong with taking on a project if he has high upside.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #136 on: June 01, 2016, 09:39:41 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Where are you getting those numbers?

I've only found Nowitzki's wingspan mentioned as 7' 1" or 7' 2" (and only as passing reference in articles on nbadraft.net).

Some of them are difficult to find, but if you search hard enough they are out there.

I thought I had read at one point that Dirk had a 7'5" wingspan, I might have been mistaken on that one.

The others I listed all legit though, and you cannot even begin to compare Bender to Dirk because Dirk was about 50x better then Bender when he was entering the NBA.

There is actually an interview with Charles Barley in which he talks about the first time he saw Dirk play as a member of the dream team.  Apparently the Dream Team played an exhibition / practice game against Germany before Dirk came to the NBA, and Dirk absolutely destroyed to the tune of something like 40+ points.  The US guys apparently were completely dumbdounded and didn't know what hit them, and Chuck said his final thought was "this guy is going to be amazing".

Bender right now is not that guy.


It might be a bit more instructive to go look up the pre-draft measurements of more similar physical players, such as Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosch, Anthony Davis, Marcus Camby, Dikembe Mutombo, Pau Gasol, etc.   If I recall, all of those guys weighed in between 214 and 227 lbs pre-draft.  KG was also 18, but I think the rest were 19 or 20 when drafted.

I am aware of the measurements of those guys. 

Kevin Garnett, Anthony Davis and Paul Gasol all had elite length (~7'5" wingspan).  Davis and Garnett also added elite athleticism to that.  I believe Camby's wingspan was also somewhere in the 7'5 range.  I haven't checked Mutombo, but I'd guess he would be around that range too.

Chris Bosh's wingspan was 7' 3.5", he was an excellent rebounder early in his career, and he was always a far better offensive player then Bender is.

Chandler is really the only guy on that list who had so-so length (I think around 7'1" or 7'2" wingspan from memory) and he has only managed something like 3-4 impressive seasons as a good defensive role player - something I'm confident Bender could also become, but not something I'd wager a #3 pick on.


The question about Dirk wasn't to compare Bender's overall talent, but because your wingspan measurement doesn't match up with anything I've ever found about him.  I also know of no official wingspan measurement of KG, though I would be surprised if it wasn't on the order of 7' 5".

I don't know the date of when Barkley first saw Dirk, but it's important to compare similar ages.  When Dirk was 16-18, DJK Wurzburg was still in second division status so the level of competition was lower.  He dominated, of course, but so has Bender when against lower level competition.  Dirk didn't come to the NBA until he was 20.  Like many rookies, Dirk's first year in the NBA was pretty modest.

Here is the main point of my question:

KG was 214 lbs at age 18.  Bosh was 226.  Chandler 224.  Camby was 223 coming out of college as a senior at age 22.  Dikembe was 228 as a 25 year old.

The point of this is not that Bender is destined to be one of those greats, but that there is no reason to freak out over Bender's weight at his current age and proclamations of whether he will be able to bang with NBA centers weighing 240-260 lbs seem rather silly at this time.

Bender was measured at 7' 0.5" w/shoes, 7' 2" wingspan and a 9' 3" standing reach almost exactly a year ago at age 17.  He weighed 216 lbs though is currently listed at 225.   I don't know how you are assessing his 'average athleticism' and 'average talent'.  We don't really have a current measure of his athleticism other than the eye test which shows him to be at least 'quick on his feet', fwiw.  As for talent, he has a far better outside shot than most of the bigs we've been talking about had at his age (or ever) and he gets routinely lauded for such 'skill' aspects of his game such as passing, court awareness and defensive fundamentals.  Whether that is 'elite' is hard to gauge.  When he's been up against same-or-slightly-older competition (Juniors, U18), he has dominated.   That doesn't sound average.

His wingspan may not be elite, but it isn't below average by any means, and his 9' 3" standing reach is better than many of the bigs you've been talking about.   It is particularly notable considering his expected role as a outside-in based offensive player.  And again, that measurement is a year old, when he was just 17.

I'm going to focus on just one of the comps, since I don't have much free time at the moment.

Chandler was measured at age 18 1/2 at the same height and as having 7' 3" wingspan, his standing reach came in at 9' 2".  He weighed 224 lbs.  He was just 1 month older than Bender will be at the time of his draft.  Chandler was a #2 pick.  He was arguably just as valuable as Dirk to the Mavs title team, DPOY the following year, an All Star and a multi-year All-Defensive team member.  I think he was probably worth that #2 pick.

Here is Chandler's scouting report on defense from DE after 6 years in the NBA:

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A tremendous defensive presence due to his mix of length and athleticism. Has the quickness to defend the high post and challenge shots from the weakside. Shows good timing when blocking shots, and has improved his one-on-one defense. Doesn’t block as many shots as you might think, but plays very good defense regardless. Still commits some questionable fouls, but is vastly improved in that department. Does a great job boxing out and exploding to the ball to grab rebounds. Can hedge the pick and roll. Will change his fair share of shots and carry the load on the glass.

That reads very much like the scouting reports on Bender's defense:  A slender, quick-footed high-paint defender with great fundamentals who can switch/hedge on the pick & roll and is a good weak-side shot contester.  Bender actually blocks a lot of shots.  In same-age competition, he has had huge rebounding games.

The difference in their scouting reports shows up on the offensive side where Chandler was (and still is) considered an average offensive player without an outside game while Bender is considered a plus offensive player with a very good outside shot, a great handle for a 7 footer and above-average passing skills.

There is no guarantee that Bender will be worth the #3 pick, but I see nothing in his physical measurements that suggests he won't.

Also consider the hypothetical, gedanken experiment:  What if Bender had spent this last year (age 17-18) in a US Prep school program?   He would have almost certainly dominated like nobody's business.  Heck at age 16 he dominated at the U18 European Championships, against older players who are in or soon will be in the NBA.

The current kid ranked #1 on DraftExpress' early 2017 mock draft is Harry Giles, who is 5 months younger than Bender is right now.  He was just measured at the recent (a year older than Bender at his last measurements)  Hoop Camp at 6' 10.75", 222 lb, 7' 3" wingspan and a 9' 1" standing reach.  His scouting report reads like a similar list of defensive strengths (great perimeter defense, quickness and fundamentals) and similar ability to get up and down the floor.  But no outside shot and nowhere near the ball handling skills that Bender has.

My speculation is that Bender would easily be pushing Giles for that #1 spot on that board, if he were in a US Prep system and coming out next year.

Now, does that mean he should be considered worth the #3 pick in THIS year's draft?  If all we care about is ceiling, then I think yes, without question.  If we care about how soon they might reach that ceiling, maybe not.

But before the forced one-and-done system, he'd be a no-brainer top draftee out of high school, just like players like KG & Chandler.  And he's been playing in a FAR more competitive league this last year than any high school.
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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #137 on: June 01, 2016, 09:50:51 AM »

Offline loco_91

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Big difference between Bender and Giles is that Giles is a freak athlete (well, was, hopefully still is after double ACL tears). I like Bender, and he might be more skilled than Giles, but that's why Giles is mocked #1 next year and Bender probably wouldn't be.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #138 on: June 01, 2016, 10:51:31 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Big difference between Bender and Giles is that Giles is a freak athlete (well, was, hopefully still is after double ACL tears). I like Bender, and he might be more skilled than Giles, but that's why Giles is mocked #1 next year and Bender probably wouldn't be.

Maker is probably the most freakish of freak athletes in this current draft.

Look where his arm is on this put-back:

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #139 on: June 01, 2016, 05:33:59 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Ainge on Bender
“His body has a long way to go,” said Ainge. “But these situations are all case by case. You’re just dealing with a small sample size.”

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #140 on: June 01, 2016, 05:48:07 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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First time I saw Maker in a video, I said, my God, this looks like KG when he was young.
I cannot believe what this kid can do. And he's not that young--19 and a few months. Older than Bender.


]

Maker is probably the most freakish of freak athletes in this current draft.

Look where his arm is on this put-back:



Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #141 on: June 01, 2016, 05:57:56 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Big difference between Bender and Giles is that Giles is a freak athlete (well, was, hopefully still is after double ACL tears). I like Bender, and he might be more skilled than Giles, but that's why Giles is mocked #1 next year and Bender probably wouldn't be.


Bender is below the  NBA average for vertical leap.  We know he is below average too on strength.


Quote
Ainge on Bender
“His body has a long way to go,” said Ainge. “But these situations are all case by case. You’re just dealing with a small sample size.”

Screams PROJECT!

Quote
First time I saw Maker in a video, I said, my God, this looks like KG when he was young.
I cannot believe what this kid can do. And he's not that young--19 and a few months. Older than Bender.

Maker does have eye popping vertical leap for a tall guy.

Quote
Maximum Vertical Leap: 36.5'

Standing Vertical Leap: 32'


http://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/thon-maker-nba-draft-combine-analysis--how-the-australian-fared-at-the-predraft-showcase/news-story/b71f7a20e83002cd41613e89ac4430c8?nk=854049ca0a9590886dfad641ac9ac942-1464818395

Compare that to Bender's 27.5" max vertical.   Maker is a way better athlete.   A lot of guys off the street might be able to top 28" max vertical.  Maker has a ways to go on his body too, but I think both of them could get a lot stronger, though I think Maker has an edge in this regard.

Look here

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/thon-maker-declares-2016-nba-draft-eligibility-requirements-scouting-video-040316

to this

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/10/2/9438537/dragan-bender-nba-draft-2016-scouting-report

Look how much bigger Thon's arms and neck are, than Bender.  Both need some work but Thon has a better base to build upon.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 06:07:17 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #142 on: June 01, 2016, 06:11:00 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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I think the real question is is if he is even better than Labisierre. Skal has a better post game, a better mid range jumpshot, he's a better defender, he's a better athlete, he's longer, we have more tape of him. Everyone's going to say oh Bender's only 18!!!! I don't care as long as you can play. Bender just doesn't look that enticing to me.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #143 on: June 01, 2016, 06:58:15 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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I think the real question is is if he is even better than Labisierre. Skal has a better post game, a better mid range jumpshot, he's a better defender, he's a better athlete, he's longer, we have more tape of him. Everyone's going to say oh Bender's only 18!!!! I don't care as long as you can play. Bender just doesn't look that enticing to me.
Bender is a better shooter and passer, but Skal is probably able to contribute sooner.  Skal has an outside shot at becoming a very good rim protector, which is more than I'd say for Bender.  Skal could become a Marcus Camby type if things go well.  I like Maker more.

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #144 on: June 01, 2016, 07:17:58 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Big difference between Bender and Giles is that Giles is a freak athlete (well, was, hopefully still is after double ACL tears). I like Bender, and he might be more skilled than Giles, but that's why Giles is mocked #1 next year and Bender probably wouldn't be.


Bender is below the  NBA average for vertical leap.  We know he is below average too on strength.


Quote
Ainge on Bender
“His body has a long way to go,” said Ainge. “But these situations are all case by case. You’re just dealing with a small sample size.”

Screams PROJECT!

Quote
First time I saw Maker in a video, I said, my God, this looks like KG when he was young.
I cannot believe what this kid can do. And he's not that young--19 and a few months. Older than Bender.

Maker does have eye popping vertical leap for a tall guy.

Quote
Maximum Vertical Leap: 36.5'

Standing Vertical Leap: 32'


http://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/nba/thon-maker-nba-draft-combine-analysis--how-the-australian-fared-at-the-predraft-showcase/news-story/b71f7a20e83002cd41613e89ac4430c8?nk=854049ca0a9590886dfad641ac9ac942-1464818395

Compare that to Bender's 27.5" max vertical.   Maker is a way better athlete.   A lot of guys off the street might be able to top 28" max vertical.  Maker has a ways to go on his body too, but I think both of them could get a lot stronger, though I think Maker has an edge in this regard.

Look here

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/thon-maker-declares-2016-nba-draft-eligibility-requirements-scouting-video-040316

to this

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/10/2/9438537/dragan-bender-nba-draft-2016-scouting-report

Look how much bigger Thon's arms and neck are, than Bender.  Both need some work but Thon has a better base to build upon.

You realize that you are comparing how a 17 year old Bender (from when that report dates) looks compared to a 19 year old Maker, right?

I don't understand why folks continue to keep making apples to oranges comparisons between players of very different ages.

Maybe I'm sensitive to it because I was about 25 lbs heavier between those two ages.
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Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2016, 11:04:13 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Danny has never drafted a player that has long ways to go (underdeveloped physically) but isn't a top athlete.

The last two skinny players he did draft but had explosiveness was AB and Gerald Green.

Al Jefferson was a strong kid straight out of high school

So if danny does draft bender,  it will be a "first"


reading the post bender "watch" articles, unless there is a plus to keeping what they saw a secret, there are no impressive words mentioned.    Wow he can really shoot.  Impressive to the basket.  Nice agility .  Nothing.    However he did say "ways to go physically"

He is not picking Bender imo.   another GM might think highly of him bc of so and so reasons

But Ainge always had a certain list of criteria that a prospect needed to meet before being chosen in the 1st round.

 

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2016, 11:07:54 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Danny looks more impressed by Jaylen Brown. 

I bet CBS and Danny will like what they see in Sabonis once he is in town too


Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2016, 11:33:44 PM »

Offline TwinTower14

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Danny looks more impressed by Jaylen Brown. 

I bet CBS and Danny will like what they see in Sabonis once he is in town too

Sabonis? Is that the kid that a 16 year old Dragan Bender turned into a human punching bag a few years ago?

Re: Bender vs Sabonis
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2016, 11:50:58 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Danny looks more impressed by Jaylen Brown. 

I bet CBS and Danny will like what they see in Sabonis once he is in town too

Sabonis? Is that the kid that a 16 year old Dragan Bender turned into a human punching bag a few years ago?

So did poeltl to sabonis last summer

But the story changed at the round of 32. What matters more is "recent"

Not what happenes 2 years ago.