Author Topic: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?  (Read 13224 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2016, 09:56:51 PM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 51955
  • Tommy Points: 3186
As others have said, the 3rd pick is not enough for Okafor. What else would be be giving up?

I'd gladly throw in Bradley and Olynyk.

Just keep IT, Smart, and Crowder out of it.

They can throw Covington in the mix then. Olynyk, Young, and number 3 for Okafor and Covington? I wouldn't hate that trade.

I still think I'd honestly rather have Noel, though.

EDIT: Eh, the more I think about it, the more I think number three is enough for Okafor alone. I'm not adding much more than something like Young or Hunter to the trade.
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Check out my Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Yakin_Bassin/shorts

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2016, 10:48:15 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
I don't follow College ball.

Hield had amazing stats, but he's a Senior.  Having looked at College player stats over the years, it's hard to trust anyone who put up great stats as a Senior.  Players seem to play significantly better the more attempts they have to play on the College level. 

It looks like Murray was far superior to Hield as a Freshman.  But then I guess you have to account for the system, team and competition.  And like I said, I don't follow College ball.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2016, 10:49:51 PM »

Offline The Rondo Show

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2898
  • Tommy Points: 364
  • Hook 'Em
Hield or Murray? You take the 19 year old any day of the week.

I'd take Okafor over either though. It would make a lot sense for Philly to move Jahlil with Simmons (probably) coming in.

PG: Dunn
SG: Pick 24
SF: Covington
PF: Simmons
C: Embiid/Noel

While the Celtics send out

PG: IT
SG: Bradley
SF: Crowder
PF: Hopefully a free agent/Amir/Kelly
C: Okafor

Both teams improve
DKC Suns

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 10:53:23 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
As others have said, the 3rd pick is not enough for Okafor. What else would be be giving up?

I'd gladly throw in Bradley and Olynyk.

Just keep IT, Smart, and Crowder out of it.

They can throw Covington in the mix then. Olynyk, Young, and number 3 for Okafor and Covington? I wouldn't hate that trade.

I still think I'd honestly rather have Noel, though.

EDIT: Eh, the more I think about it, the more I think number three is enough for Okafor alone. I'm not adding much more than something like Young or Hunter to the trade.

I dont think Philly will trade Noel yet. Not until Embiid shows he can play full starter minutes.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2016, 10:57:42 PM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 51955
  • Tommy Points: 3186
As others have said, the 3rd pick is not enough for Okafor. What else would be be giving up?

I'd gladly throw in Bradley and Olynyk.

Just keep IT, Smart, and Crowder out of it.

They can throw Covington in the mix then. Olynyk, Young, and number 3 for Okafor and Covington? I wouldn't hate that trade.

I still think I'd honestly rather have Noel, though.

EDIT: Eh, the more I think about it, the more I think number three is enough for Okafor alone. I'm not adding much more than something like Young or Hunter to the trade.

I dont think Philly will trade Noel yet. Not until Embiid shows he can play full starter minutes.

Eh, I think they would if we offer the number three for him. The whole league knows that they have three center prospects that can't play with each other effectively for long periods of time. If Embiid doesn't pan out, they still have a high ceiling guy in Okafor to fall back on, who would seemingly fit well next to Simmons or Saric. I think if we offered them number three and they could get a Dunn, Hield, or Murray to help their guard situation, they'd almost have to do it.
Recovering Joe Skeptic, but inching towards a relapse.

Check out my Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Yakin_Bassin/shorts

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2016, 10:58:38 PM »

Offline Chris22

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5081
  • Tommy Points: 460
Ainge said best player availiable so Murray or Dunn

From your lips to God's ears.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2016, 11:06:40 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
As others have said, the 3rd pick is not enough for Okafor. What else would be be giving up?

I'd gladly throw in Bradley and Olynyk.

Just keep IT, Smart, and Crowder out of it.

They can throw Covington in the mix then. Olynyk, Young, and number 3 for Okafor and Covington? I wouldn't hate that trade.

I still think I'd honestly rather have Noel, though.

EDIT: Eh, the more I think about it, the more I think number three is enough for Okafor alone. I'm not adding much more than something like Young or Hunter to the trade.

I dont think Philly will trade Noel yet. Not until Embiid shows he can play full starter minutes.

Eh, I think they would if we offer the number three for him. The whole league knows that they have three center prospects that can't play with each other effectively for long periods of time. If Embiid doesn't pan out, they still have a high ceiling guy in Okafor to fall back on, who would seemingly fit well next to Simmons or Saric. I think if we offered them number three and they could get a Dunn, Hield, or Murray to help their guard situation, they'd almost have to do it.

Somebody will offer them some good assets for Okafor.

And Noel can probably play next to Saric, maybe even Embiid if his jumper is legit. Okafor definitely can't.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2016, 11:07:55 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
That makes no sense.  Supposedly Boston offered a package built around the Brooklyn pick (who knows what else we were offering) for Okafor and Philly ultimately turned it down. 

WHy did they turn it down?  Well, probably because there was still significant uncertainty about the Brooklyn pick.  Had Brooklyn won a handful of games and the lotto balls bounced wrong, that pick could have been outside of the top 6.

I'm not getting your point here. 

The uncertainty is exactly why they wouldn't have made the trade if the rumors are true (which is still a big assumption). 

At the time of the trade deadling, I think Brooklyn was in the #4 spot after Philly, LA and Phoenix.  Minnesota was falling rapidly and closing in themselves.  It was entirely possible Brooklyn could have had the 5th worst record by the time the end of the season came along, meaning that the pick could have fallen as far as 8th. 

Would Philly trade Okafor for a pick that could have fallen as far as 7 or 8?  Obviously they would have needed extra sweeteners added in in order to take that gamble, which Boston wouldn't have wanted to offer because the pick could have just as easily gone the other direction (as high as #1).

Now we now it is going to be a top 3 pick, which obviously changes everything.   


Why else did they turn it down?  Well, if it aint broke don't fix it.  They were trying to tank it up.  It worked out.  Now they have the top pick to thank for their tankjob.

Because it WAS broke? 

Philly didn't seem like they really wanted to have another disaster tank-a-thon, which is why they fired head honcho tanker. 

The team was a laughing stock for about the third year straight, their two best prospects (Noel and Okafor) were completely incapable of playing effectively together, and their other top prospect (Okafor) still hadn't played a game. 

It wasn't only broke, it was straight up shattered.

They need prospects with star potential who AREN'T centers - the #3 pick would give them the opportunity to do just that.


Why else?  Well maybe because Okafor might end up better than every player in this draft.  So why bother?

Because Dunn and Hield both have star potential, and both fit Philly better then Okafor does.

Because Bender would also be a better fit in Philly then Okafor.

Because just about everybody in the top 6 of this year's draft would be a better fit to Philly then Okafor.

Unless/until Embiid can show that he is (a) healthy enough to play and (b) as capable as everybody hoped he would be, the Sixers really can't afford to keep both Noel and Okafor.  They go together like chalk and cheese - they are a terrible fit.    They need a guard, a wing, or a versatile two-way big...and they need talent at multiple positions.

Makes more sense to trade Okafor and fill two needs with talented young prospects, then it does to keep moving forward with a frontcourt that makes no sense.


Also, can someone tell me where someone like Kris Dunn, Buddy Hield or Jaylen Brown would have gone in the 2015 NBA draft?  I don't follow College ball, but someone said yesterday that Jaylen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow went 10th in the 2015 draft.  If Brown is a poor man's Winslow and some mocks have us taking him 3rd, doesn't that seem to suggest that the 3rd best player in this draft wouldn't have gone in the top 10 last year?   Then, explain to me why the #3 pick alone would be equal value for a player who was taken 3rd last last year in a superior draft and is clearly an excellent big man prospect who can already contribute?

I think Hield and Dunn are more talented then then anybody from the 2015 draft outside of Towns. 

Dunn is a 6'4" PG with elite length and outstanding athleticism, and great intangibles who can do pretty much everything (shoot, get to the rim, defend, rebound, pass, handle the ball) - he might be the most complete PG to make the draft since Chris Paul.

Hield is an elite scorer and probably the best shooter to make the draft since Steph Curry, while also having good size, good athleticism, outstanding intangibles, and the tools to become a very good defensive player. 

Hard to say where they would go in the draft purely because talent isn't the only factor - age generally plays a heavy part in determining draft positions and Hield/Dunn are both old (22) for rookies which likely drags them down.  But in terms of pure talent and star potential, I think they are above everybody from 2015 except Towns - and yes I'm including Porzingis in that.   

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2016, 11:13:01 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • Tommy Points: 875
Hield or Murray? You take the 19 year old any day of the week.


No, you take the better talent.  Taking guys purely due to their age is generally a poor decision - if you need an example just look to James Young, who Murray happens to look quite a lot like right now. 

Age is pretty much the ONLY thing Murray has over Hield right now. Murray's greatest asset is his outside shot, and Hield's outside shot is better. Murray does have better PG skills, but his PG skills are still medicore (less than 1 assist-per-turnover and average ball handling) so that's kind of a moot point. 

Hield is the safer pick, and he also has (IMHO) a higher upside as well - despite his age. If you
want James Young 2.0 or Jimmer Fredette 2.0 then by all means, take Murray at #3.

Dunn is also a better prospect then Murray, but I put him after Hield because we need size and outside shooting rather than PG skills right now, and Hield is bigger then Dunn and a better outside shooter. 

But if we didn't get Hield, I'd want it to be Dunn. 

I just don't think Murray is versatile enough to go top 4.  He's just too one dimensional right now, and I think the only way he could really surprise and become a star is if he makes some MASSIVE strides in his ball handling ability over the next couple of years, because with his lack of size/athleticism that's about the only chance he'd have of being able to create his own shot against NBA defence.

That's even before you go into the defensive side of the argument - an area where Murray is almost certain to be a major liability at the NBA level. 

I won't hate it if we draft him at #3 because we need a shooter regardless, but I'd be very underwhelmed. 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 11:25:31 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2016, 11:53:26 PM »

Offline mr. dee

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8076
  • Tommy Points: 615
You don't always take age as a factor. Seniors/Juniors like Steph Curry,Klay Thompson,Jimmy Butler, Damian Lillard, Al Horford and Joakim Noah found their stride in the NBA and some of them took a pretty long time to develop. It's not like Hield already reached his ceiling. He can and will still develop in the NBA. If you think they can already contribute and still have a chance of developing, you take  them, regardless of age.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2016, 11:58:32 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11884
  • Tommy Points: 902
  • GOT IT!!!
I don't follow College ball.

Hield had amazing stats, but he's a Senior.  Having looked at College player stats over the years, it's hard to trust anyone who put up great stats as a Senior.  Players seem to play significantly better the more attempts they have to play on the College level. 

It looks like Murray was far superior to Hield as a Freshman.  But then I guess you have to account for the system, team and competition.  And like I said, I don't follow College ball.

I've watched Buddy grow and polish his game every year in college. As a freshman he was a defensive role player and by his senior year he was dominating games hitting 30 foot jumpers. He's not your average senior that gets by on age and grit a la Tyler Hansbourgh. Murray may have more "potential" because he's only 19 but Buddy certainly hasn't reached his ceiling yet either.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2016, 12:14:52 AM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
  • Tommy Points: 804
Basketball gods are about to touch us and we will be HIELD! Amen.



I'd be happy with Murray and probably Bender too. Actually, I'm getting ready to learn about a new player that I know nothing about because DA almost always goes away from who I want.
It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2016, 12:26:27 AM »

Offline mr. dee

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8076
  • Tommy Points: 615
Everyone is glossing about how Hield is undersized as a wing player. But let's also talk about Murray's wingspan and he is only inch taller than Hield.

Hield - 8'9"
Murray - 8'7"

Let's also talk about defense. Buddy Hield also have the edge. He was a solid role playing defender in his first two years in Oklahoma. It was reduced due to his increased offensive role.

Murray can be a ballhog at times and a high AST ratio with turnovers. Hield is always known as a leader.

Gotta admit, Murray is a better finisher and ball handler though.

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2016, 12:41:49 AM »

Offline greenrunsdeep41

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 366
  • Tommy Points: 152
Does anyone here feel like trading the #3 for Noel and the future owed lakers pick is good value?
2019 Historical Draft - Golden State

C - Bill Russell/Joel Embiid
PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo/Tommy Heinsohn
SF - Kevin Durant/Billy Cunningham
SG - Bruce Bowen/David Thompson
PG - Isiah Thomas/James Harden

Re: Heild or Murray , or Okafor ?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2016, 12:44:54 AM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2438
  • Tommy Points: 269
I seriously would not be surprised if we trade the #3 pick in a package for Okafor. Philly doesn't need him and they need a guard, which this draft has a ton of. We need a big who can score and have enough guards as it is (I wouldn't be surprised if they ask for Rozier too but Smart to me if off-limits).

I'm not saying I necessarily like Jahlil, but he's a nice young asset who might be better off playing for a team that has some direction unlike Philly, but that's just the optimist in me speaking.

Plus think about how awkward he'll feel if he gets traded to Boston considering well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAmCcvHHY8M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F5ZQvWVloU