Danny Was Right

[Greyman]

The last two games haven't told us anything we didn't already know. To compete against the other top teams the Celtics need everybody to be playing near their potential best. I think both games have positives and going into the playoffs they are good preparation, players know how much they need to be on their game.

IT has been fantastic for the team all season and other teams are going to try and take his opportunities away. Good teams are able to turn that into something positive as it should create chances for other players. Right now the team isn't making the most of that and there does desperately need to be more scoring beyond IT and to a lesser extent AB, who is providing steady numbers.

I really doubt this squad roles over now against Miami or in the playoffs. They will desperately want to prove themselves and I am confident Stevens is up to the task. DA is arguably right and we all know this team has limitations, they aren't pushovers though.

[Ilikesports17]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

So hes a liability due to Defense?

Damian Lillard and Reggie Jackson are both inferior defenders, as is Kyrie Irving. Kemba is Ok I suppose, but Id take IT over him any day.

If we are going to care a lot about defense Im really not sure  who that vaults above Isaiah.

If anything it might actually launch him above Dame.

Eric Bledsoe when healthy is better, Conley probably would best illustrate your point of Isaiah fitting well on this team, where a guy like Conley fits better on a contender, but I dont see any way you slice it where IT isnt a top 10 pg in this league.

aha. Jeff Teague.

So
Curry
Paul
Westbrook
Wall
Lowry
Bledsoe --> injured
Conley --> not an explosive player
Teague --> would rather have IT
Lillard --> one of worst defenders in league

thats giving everyone outside Kyrie the benefit of the doubt and IT is still top 10.

[jpotter33]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

So hes a liability due to Defense?

Damian Lillard and Reggie Jackson are both inferior defenders, as is Kyrie Irving. Kemba is Ok I suppose, but Id take IT over him any day.

If we are going to care a lot about defense Im really not sure  who that vaults above Isaiah.

If anything it might actually launch him above Dame.

Eric Bledsoe when healthy is better, Conley probably would best illustrate your point of Isaiah fitting well on this team, where a guy like Conley fits better on a contender, but I dont see any way you slice it where IT isnt a top 10 pg in this league.

aha. Jeff Teague.

So
Curry
Paul
Westbrook
Wall
Lowry
Bledsoe --> injured
Conley --> not an explosive player
Teague --> would rather have IT
Lillard --> one of worst defenders in league

thats giving everyone outside Kyrie the benefit of the doubt and IT is still top 10.

IT is worse defensively than every guy you just mentioned. And it's not necessarily all about defensive prowess or skill either, because he rates similarly to someone like Kyrie and Dame. However, those guys are also 6 inches taller than him, which almost by definition makes them less of a disadvantage defensively. Normal-sized guards can't post up those guys effectively, but they can post up IT effectively. They're all pretty bad defensively, but IT's even further disadvantaged due to his small size and stature.

Also, I have a feeling you guys don't understand what the word "ideally" means.

Just because I think he's ideally a volume scoring sixth man doesn't mean that he's not in the top half of point guards. I'd probably even have him somewhere around my top 9-12 list of point guards, but that still doesn't mean that I think he should ultimately be a starter in the league. Look at someone like Ginobli. For a long time he was a top player at his position, but he still came off of the bench because of his playing style and what was best for the team. What I'm arguing is that IT's playing style, which is undoubtedly a volume scoring, score-first point guard, is best suited as the sixth man off the bench. I really don't think that's a very controversial statement to make.

[Ilikesports17]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

So hes a liability due to Defense?

Damian Lillard and Reggie Jackson are both inferior defenders, as is Kyrie Irving. Kemba is Ok I suppose, but Id take IT over him any day.

If we are going to care a lot about defense Im really not sure  who that vaults above Isaiah.

If anything it might actually launch him above Dame.

Eric Bledsoe when healthy is better, Conley probably would best illustrate your point of Isaiah fitting well on this team, where a guy like Conley fits better on a contender, but I dont see any way you slice it where IT isnt a top 10 pg in this league.

aha. Jeff Teague.

So
Curry
Paul
Westbrook
Wall
Lowry
Bledsoe --> injured
Conley --> not an explosive player
Teague --> would rather have IT
Lillard --> one of worst defenders in league

thats giving everyone outside Kyrie the benefit of the doubt and IT is still top 10.

IT is worse defensively than every guy you just mentioned. And it's not necessarily all about defensive prowess or skill either, because he rates similarly to someone like Kyrie and Dame. However, those guys are also 6 inches taller than him, which almost by definition makes them less of a disadvantage defensively. Normal-sized guards can't post up those guys effectively, but they can post up IT effectively. They're all pretty bad defensively, but IT's even further disadvantaged due to his small size and stature.

Also, I have a feeling you guys don't understand what the word "ideally" means.

Just because I think he's ideally a volume scoring sixth man doesn't mean that he's not in the top half of point guards. I'd probably even have him somewhere around my top 9-12 list of point guards, but that still doesn't mean that I think he should ultimately be a starter in the league. Look at someone like Ginobli. For a long time he was a top player at his position, but he still came off of the bench because of his playing style and what was best for the team. What I'm arguing is that IT's playing style, which is undoubtedly a volume scoring, score-first point guard, is best suited as the sixth man off the bench. I really don't think that's a very controversial statement to make.

Ideally Damian Lillard would back up Steph Curry or John Wall too.

Also, height does not automatically make you an inferrior defender. Draymond Green is 6' 7" and he does just fine. Again, you can count the number of times a team has brought IT into the post on one hand. It [dang] near never happens.

Its not that they are all bad and then IT is bad and short. They are bad and IT is pretty OK and short which makes him bad.

I think we are asking Isaiah to do to much because we are asking him to carry us like he was Lebron James or James Harden or Russell Westbrook (and even those guys have struggled to carry their teams to wins when the other primary scorers struggle).

He is what he is and to me that is a good starting point gaurd, who absolutely can start on a championship team.

[jpotter33]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

So hes a liability due to Defense?

Damian Lillard and Reggie Jackson are both inferior defenders, as is Kyrie Irving. Kemba is Ok I suppose, but Id take IT over him any day.

If we are going to care a lot about defense Im really not sure  who that vaults above Isaiah.

If anything it might actually launch him above Dame.

Eric Bledsoe when healthy is better, Conley probably would best illustrate your point of Isaiah fitting well on this team, where a guy like Conley fits better on a contender, but I dont see any way you slice it where IT isnt a top 10 pg in this league.

aha. Jeff Teague.

So
Curry
Paul
Westbrook
Wall
Lowry
Bledsoe --> injured
Conley --> not an explosive player
Teague --> would rather have IT
Lillard --> one of worst defenders in league

thats giving everyone outside Kyrie the benefit of the doubt and IT is still top 10.

IT is worse defensively than every guy you just mentioned. And it's not necessarily all about defensive prowess or skill either, because he rates similarly to someone like Kyrie and Dame. However, those guys are also 6 inches taller than him, which almost by definition makes them less of a disadvantage defensively. Normal-sized guards can't post up those guys effectively, but they can post up IT effectively. They're all pretty bad defensively, but IT's even further disadvantaged due to his small size and stature.

Also, I have a feeling you guys don't understand what the word "ideally" means.

Just because I think he's ideally a volume scoring sixth man doesn't mean that he's not in the top half of point guards. I'd probably even have him somewhere around my top 9-12 list of point guards, but that still doesn't mean that I think he should ultimately be a starter in the league. Look at someone like Ginobli. For a long time he was a top player at his position, but he still came off of the bench because of his playing style and what was best for the team. What I'm arguing is that IT's playing style, which is undoubtedly a volume scoring, score-first point guard, is best suited as the sixth man off the bench. I really don't think that's a very controversial statement to make.

Ideally Damian Lillard would back up Steph Curry or John Wall too.

Also, height does not automatically make you an inferrior defender. Draymond Green is 6' 7" and he does just fine. Again, you can count the number of times a team has brought IT into the post on one hand. It [dang] near never happens.

You're obviously missing the point I'm making, so this is just an exercise in futility at this point.

But, yes, his height is a disadvantage, and just because people don't take advantage of it doesn't mean that it's not a disadvantage. He's been abused in the post each time it has been tried, which he rightly should since he's the equivalent of a hobbit in the NBA. But, you're right, for some reason other teams just don't utilize it.

And the "start on a championship team" claim is such a BS claim, because you could take any half-ass player that has a legitimate starting skill and build a perfectly ideal team around him to claim that he could "start on a championship team." Case in point - Roberson in OKC.

[konkmv]

I think everyone must calm down a little bit...we are a second in a row playoffteam which is good... we have improved our record which is also good... we have won some games against contenters which is promising... we will face a team we can compete at the playoffs.. wait and see

[LilRip]

Pretty obvious that were not contenders. We get a lot of wins because our main guys are usually willing to work harder than the other team and that translates to regular season wins. But when it comes to the playoffs? Maybe a game or two but talent is what separates real contenders from a winning regular season team.

We're nearly there though. Adding Durant makes us a contender, IMO.

[alldaboston]

People wanted one all-star. Now that we have him the same people are tripping over themselves to explain why he doesn't count.

TP man. T ****ing P. People honestly need to chill. IT is the same all star y'all wanted. Don't bring this bull**** that he's a 6th man or whatever. He has shown he's a starting point guard in this league. Sure he's played like **** these past few games but he's also the only reason we are where we are right now. Calm down. Jeez.

We aren't a contender yet, but look how far we have come with Isaiah and Brad. Stop blaming the all star

[crimson_stallion]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

Kemba didn't frustrate him, he just had a bad game. 

Kemba Walker in the draft combine measured at a 6'1' in shoes, with a 6'4" wingspan.  Isaiah Thomas measured at 5'10" in shoes, with a 6'2" wingspan.  Kemba doesn't have that much of an advantage over Thomas in terms of size, and Thomas has the advantage in terms of athleticism.

Thomas dominates guys in the Kemba Walker mould on a nightly basis.  Tonight Thomas had 17 points, 4 assists and 3 rebounds in 20 minutes of playing time.  That's equivalent of 30 points,7 assists and 5 rebounds Per 36.   He shot 46% from the field, 33% from three and got to the line 7 times. 

Boston's problem in this game was simple - they just weren't in it.  Offensively they looked like they were (mentally) a step slow, and Charlotte capitalised on that.  Thomas had 6 turnovers in 20 minutes (triple his season average), and Turner had 4 turnovers in 30 minutes (double his season average).  That's not the norm for either of those guys, and just from watching the game it was very clear neither guy was in a sharp state of mind.

Likewise defensively the entire team was playing lazy and standing around, watching.

This wasn't a case of Charlotte beating Boston.  Today Boston beat themselves, and Bradley + Olynyk were probably the only two rotation guys who genuinely played well. Everybody else simply played really poorly.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

This is bound to happen when he is 5"9 and by far the best player the Celtics have offensively, take him off his game and who picks up the slack?

Its not only IT, you could say that about the entire roster save, maybe Crowder and Smart.

[Rosco917]

Interesting...is the glass half full, or is it half empty.

I'm not kidding myself, this is a team that needs several quality pieces, before it can be considered a real contender. Grit, heart and solid coaching can only take you so far. A team being able to win only when one certain player has a good offensive night, is not a recipe for success. When Thomas is being controlled, the Celtics have no answer... at all. The offense simply sputters.  We have no single player that offers a consistent solution night in and night out, other than IT.

Making the playoffs is fun, 3rd, 4th. 5th. 6th. position doesn't really matter. Getting playoff experience, developing young players, and enticing free agents to look at our team is the name of the game.


 

[mmmmm]

People wanted one all-star. Now that we have him the same people are tripping over themselves to explain why he doesn't count.

To be fair, I wasn't too keen of getting IT in the first place, because he's always been a volume scorer, sixth man type to me. But I was glad that we got him once he played that role. However, I certainly didn't want him as a starter, because he's too one-sided of a player and he doesn't have very sound decision-making for a point guard. And that's because he's a volume scorer whose ideal position is a scoring player off of the bench. You're kidding yourself if you think that's not his ideal position given his limitations. He's Jamal Crawford 2.0 - volume scoring sixth man who runs the second unit.

On sixth man:  Isaiah has been a _starter_ for the the majority of the NBA games he's played in in his career (64%) including 78 of 81 on a playoff-bound team this season (in which he was named an all-star).  He has played the most minutes of any player on that playoff-bound team.  If that is "sixth man to you", then you might be suffering from delusion, since that is a view detached from reality.

On volume scorer:  Isaiah has a career scoring efficiency of .572 and even with increased USG this year is still maintaining it at a very efficient .563.   I'd like some more of that volume, please.  Also note that he is maintaining that scoring volume and efficiency while also assisting 32.7% of his teammates shots.

Here is an interesting seasonal comparison:

Player A:  2944 minutes, 1820 points, 562 assists, .546% TS%, 27.4% USG%, 28.9% AST%, 9.5 WS, 21.9 PER
Thomas:  2610 minutes, 1802 points, 503 assists, .563% TS% 29.7% USG%, 32.7% AST%, 9.6 WS, 21.5 PER

In the history of the Celtics, there have been only two players who have posted seasons with 1800+ points, 500+ assists with BOTH a scoring efficiency above .540 AND an assist percentage above 25%.  Thomas is one of them.

Player A did it 5 times.  The above is just one of those seasons.  If you haven't guessed who Player A is, then you should review your Boston Celtics history.

When this team signs, drafts or trades for a better point-guard than Isaiah, then it will be time to talk about putting him on the bench.   We do not have that player right now.

[mmmmm]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

I think his left wrist is hurt more than we are being let on about.  He hurt it earlier in the year and it clearly affected his shooting and offense back then as he subsequently had 2 or 3 bad games then.  He fell on it hard in the Bucks game and these last two games have not been at his usual efficiency.  He's lacked his usual explosiveness and has been a little less aggressive at taking his own shot.

That is probably affecting his control and touch on layups that are not spinning into the cylinder right now as well as on his jump shot.

[Ilikesports17]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

Im also quite surprised more teams dont do that. Especially when AB can be gaurded by most pgs due to his size.

I understand the frustration with IT, as these last few games hes been quite bad and its crunch time. The concern with IT was always going to be that when it comes to crunch time, hes going to be exposed as a gimmick.

That being said, I think I disagree with this sentiment.

you say hes not an ideal starting 1 and hes not. id rather have Chris Paul, Steph, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, John Wall and Lillard.

I think IT is next. Ahead of Kemba, Teague and Jackson. I dont think that list is absurd either.

Its quite reasonable to call IT the 7th best pg in the league. That seems like starting caliber to me.

Maybe offensively, but there's more to the game than offense. He's a major, major liability defensively that the others aren't, and he's even playing with most likely two of the three of the top ten or so perimeter defenders in the league.

Let's just wait until the playoffs to see how he does. I really, really, really hope he doesn't choke again this year and can lead us into the second round, and in all honesty it will probably depend upon who we play. Kemba looked to really frustrate him defensively, and I'm beyond floored that they didn't put Lee on him to limit him, though they might move to that in the playoffs. Miami, on the other hand, doesn't really have anyone to limit IT in the starting lineup, unless they plan on starting Winslow.

So hes a liability due to Defense?

Damian Lillard and Reggie Jackson are both inferior defenders, as is Kyrie Irving. Kemba is Ok I suppose, but Id take IT over him any day.

If we are going to care a lot about defense Im really not sure  who that vaults above Isaiah.

If anything it might actually launch him above Dame.

Eric Bledsoe when healthy is better, Conley probably would best illustrate your point of Isaiah fitting well on this team, where a guy like Conley fits better on a contender, but I dont see any way you slice it where IT isnt a top 10 pg in this league.

aha. Jeff Teague.

So
Curry
Paul
Westbrook
Wall
Lowry
Bledsoe --> injured
Conley --> not an explosive player
Teague --> would rather have IT
Lillard --> one of worst defenders in league

thats giving everyone outside Kyrie the benefit of the doubt and IT is still top 10.

IT is worse defensively than every guy you just mentioned. And it's not necessarily all about defensive prowess or skill either, because he rates similarly to someone like Kyrie and Dame. However, those guys are also 6 inches taller than him, which almost by definition makes them less of a disadvantage defensively. Normal-sized guards can't post up those guys effectively, but they can post up IT effectively. They're all pretty bad defensively, but IT's even further disadvantaged due to his small size and stature.

Also, I have a feeling you guys don't understand what the word "ideally" means.

Just because I think he's ideally a volume scoring sixth man doesn't mean that he's not in the top half of point guards. I'd probably even have him somewhere around my top 9-12 list of point guards, but that still doesn't mean that I think he should ultimately be a starter in the league. Look at someone like Ginobli. For a long time he was a top player at his position, but he still came off of the bench because of his playing style and what was best for the team. What I'm arguing is that IT's playing style, which is undoubtedly a volume scoring, score-first point guard, is best suited as the sixth man off the bench. I really don't think that's a very controversial statement to make.

Ideally Damian Lillard would back up Steph Curry or John Wall too.

Also, height does not automatically make you an inferrior defender. Draymond Green is 6' 7" and he does just fine. Again, you can count the number of times a team has brought IT into the post on one hand. It [dang] near never happens.

You're obviously missing the point I'm making, so this is just an exercise in futility at this point.

But, yes, his height is a disadvantage, and just because people don't take advantage of it doesn't mean that it's not a disadvantage. He's been abused in the post each time it has been tried, which he rightly should since he's the equivalent of a hobbit in the NBA. But, you're right, for some reason other teams just don't utilize it.

And the "start on a championship team" claim is such a BS claim, because you could take any half-ass player that has a legitimate starting skill and build a perfectly ideal team around him to claim that he could "start on a championship team." Case in point - Roberson in OKC.

You critique IT because he's a defensive liability, a volume score, and a poor decision maker.

Damian Lillard is nearly statistically identical to IT. By any statistical measure (DRPM, DWS, steals, stl %, Drtg) IT is a superior defender.

Dame has a minuscule advantage in efg while It has a similarly minuscule advantage in ts%.

IT had a better TO  rate and turns it over less per game.

So, how am I missing the point. IT is better than Dame at all the things you say IT is bad at. I reject the premise that because Thomas is 5'9" he is unequivocally disqualified from being a starter.

[mmmmm]

This was always a concern with our team, because IT can be taken out of his game so easily.

Yeah which is why he was their leading scorer 17 games in a row.

And has been a primary reason why we have lost the last 6 quarters...

Easy to do things in the season. How was IT again in the playoffs last year when he was taken out of his game?

Please, an exaggeration he was their leading scorer in the playoffs and their ONLY scorer. You're ragging on him for be the leading scorer on the eighth who got swept by the best team in the east. Where was his help? Where was Bradley? Crowder? Turner? When the Cavs were honing their defense on him, how come others didn't step up. If they did, it would take some burden off him.

Yeah, real impressive when you're the leading scorer shooting 33 fg% and 17 3PFG%. 

It just shows what his role truly is: a sixth man volume scorer.

Sixth man?! The man is averaging 22 and 6 is this season are those sixth man numbers?

Yes, he is ideally a sixth man. His size and defense are too big of a disadvantage and his game is too easy to game plan for to be a legitimate starting point guard on a contending team.

I disagree.

Hes more than a sixth man and can certainly be a starter. When he is taken out of his game, we cant afford to see everyone else be garbage too.

Where was Jae? AB didnt generate any offense, Turner was garbage, Kelly was garbage, neither Sully nor Amir did jack.

IT is not really the problem.

Hes not Chris Paul or Steph obviously, but to say hes not starting caliber is too much.

Sure, he's starting caliber on THIS TEAM (at least this year - Smart should take back his starting position next year). But can you really say that he's an ideal starting caliber point guard? No, his game is totally tailored to be a sixth man, which is why it's his ideal position.

You are completely wrong.

The reason why he is such a dangerous scorer is because he is so DIFFICULT to gameplan against.  He's a guy who can score in just about ever imaginable way.  He can hit the three, he has a deadly midrange game, can shoot off spot-ups or off the dribble, can get into the paint and finish at the basket, gets to the line at an elite rate, makes his free throws at an elite percentage, etc.

Isaiah Thomas is probably one of the top 5 scorers in the entire NBA for all of the above reasons. I'm not talking in terms of pure scoring numbers, but in terms of scoring talent/skill/ability. 

The guy has been on an absolute tear since the All-Star break and has been nothing short of elite.   The game today was a terrible effort, but you can't blame Thomas for that - one or two bad games in 20 is hardly something to get frustrated about.

Putting a lanky, athletic defender on him isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty much every time that has happened IT has been limited - Shumpert, Livingston, MCW, etc. He's struggled against every single one of those guys. Further, it's amazing that more teams don't do it and then take advantage of him offensively more often.

This is just mythology.  First off, in regards to last year's playoffs, the ONLY game that Isaiah got 'limited' in was Game 3, in which for whatever reason the refs would not give him a foul call.  This became extremely obvious very early in the game and he only played 21 minutes in that game.

In the other three playoff games Isaiah scored 22, 22 &  21 points and dished out 10, 7 & 9 assists.  He got to the FT line 8, 10 & 12 times, nailing every one of them.

In their last 2 regular season matches, Shumpert has gotten large minutes (34:47 & 34:42) and was on the floor against Isaiah as much as possible (35:47 & 34:02), I suppose in some misguided attempt to have him 'limit' Isaiah.   Isaiah has lit him up for 49 points in those two games, getting to the FT line 19 times and dealing out 8 assists.  Isaiah's combined scoring efficiency (TS%) in those two games was .578.

Yeah, Shumpert did a fantastic job of limiting Isaiah there.  He was called for 9 PFs in those two games.  Meanwhile, he scored 16 points of his own on miserable .508 TS efficiency, so there is that.

If teams want to put a defensive specialist on the floor to try to shut down Isaiah, then they have to also incur the cost to their own offense for doing so.