Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate

[Tr1boy]

Every year we get some mystery guys some they are Porzingas and sometimes they are Darko.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106856/nba-draft-the-numbers-on-international-lottery-picks

The supposedly great Israelis stats.   I concede his shooting is better but he has a lot of other problem areas.

http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

Still not the second coming folks.  Almost not blocks and crappy rebounding.

Due to the amount of international scouting nowadays you have far more hits than you have misses. The days of busts, like Tskitishvili and Darko, are fewer than ever. Could they still happen? Of course. However, when a player is projected to be a lottery pick it's usually for good reason.


International Lottery selections since 2010

2010
0

2011
Kanter
Valanciunus
Biyombo
Vesely

2012
0

2013
Greek Freek

2014
Exum
Saric

2015
Porzingis
Hezonja
Mudiay


You can easily say that the last international lottery pick that was a flat out bust was Vesely in 2011. It's not as though taking a domestic player provides a better percentage of success. It just might be that casual fans, those that aren't previed to amount of information of foreign players, feel much more at ease basing their opinion on something they know and have actually seen. Bender is projected to go top 3 by most every publication. This would be the highest international player selected in a very long time. I really doubt it's because they have seen a few highlight videos and are basing their mocks on that. More than likely, it's a combination of what they see themselves and hear from team scouts, executives, etc.

Outside of Giannis (who wasn't taken in the lottery IIRC), and Porzingis, have any of those guys lived up to expectations yet? Maybe JV (very debatable), but otherwise there's been a lot of overvaluing going on based on track record to date.

Giannis was #15, so technically 1 spot outside. I don't see how these guys, as a collective whole, haven't lived up to expectations, but the domestic kids have. Based on the number of busts on the domestic side, it's fair to say that there is no greater risk in drafting a foreign player.

The Bender case is interesting. Some think he's getting pegged this high simply on his size, but if that's the case then why didn't players like Gobert, Nurkic, Nogeira, etc. get drafted much higher simply for their size? The likelihood is that people are seeing something in Bender that the majority of us simply don't have accessibility to. Fair?

That's simply it, he hasn't played enough for anyone to come up with a definite conclusion.  He hasn't even played regular mins. So his coach doesn't think he is ready. 

And Benders reason for declaring for the draft? 

I'm not stating he needs stay but there is a "rush" feeling. He will do well in combine measurements. Maybe even individual workouts. But nobody will still know how he does in 5 on 5 play against good players. Better players than he is used to playing with and against.

We don't know what his stamina level is like.  If in stressful situations (5 min left) how he reacts.   If teams takeaway his strong pts or he is struggling what can he do to overcome on the fly

Right now the bigger question for me anyways is why he didn't get consistent playing time for a team that really could of used his so called talents

Triboy, you constantly contradict yourself so much that you don't even realize you do so, and I won't even bother to address it.

Bender is 18. This means that he would be a high school senior. How would he look playing on that level against peers his same age? Surely it's reasonable to suggest he would be one of the best players in the country, a guy all schools would covet, and a player that would be pegged on the same tier as a Giles, Tatum, and Jackson and a virtual lock to be a top 5 pick in 2017.

Wrong. Porzingis got min and made an impact prior to the NBA

18 year old?? So is Simmons, ingram , Murray etc

And you are so big on defending him and uncrentainty (using your argument he is so young and didnt get min). So you are big on him based on flash mainly? Bravo eddie20

[Tr1boy]

Eddie20 same thing you said about Cliff Alexandre.  The guy had a very poor freshman year.  Had issues off court

Yet based on "flash" , his wingspan, perceived toughness you wanted him over Mickey.

You think too lightly on accomplishments , what can be verified in addition to the flash. 

[Eddie20]

Every year we get some mystery guys some they are Porzingas and sometimes they are Darko.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106856/nba-draft-the-numbers-on-international-lottery-picks

The supposedly great Israelis stats.   I concede his shooting is better but he has a lot of other problem areas.

http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

Still not the second coming folks.  Almost not blocks and crappy rebounding.

Due to the amount of international scouting nowadays you have far more hits than you have misses. The days of busts, like Tskitishvili and Darko, are fewer than ever. Could they still happen? Of course. However, when a player is projected to be a lottery pick it's usually for good reason.


International Lottery selections since 2010

2010
0

2011
Kanter
Valanciunus
Biyombo
Vesely

2012
0

2013
Greek Freek

2014
Exum
Saric

2015
Porzingis
Hezonja
Mudiay


You can easily say that the last international lottery pick that was a flat out bust was Vesely in 2011. It's not as though taking a domestic player provides a better percentage of success. It just might be that casual fans, those that aren't previed to amount of information of foreign players, feel much more at ease basing their opinion on something they know and have actually seen. Bender is projected to go top 3 by most every publication. This would be the highest international player selected in a very long time. I really doubt it's because they have seen a few highlight videos and are basing their mocks on that. More than likely, it's a combination of what they see themselves and hear from team scouts, executives, etc.

Outside of Giannis (who wasn't taken in the lottery IIRC), and Porzingis, have any of those guys lived up to expectations yet? Maybe JV (very debatable), but otherwise there's been a lot of overvaluing going on based on track record to date.

Giannis was #15, so technically 1 spot outside. I don't see how these guys, as a collective whole, haven't lived up to expectations, but the domestic kids have. Based on the number of busts on the domestic side, it's fair to say that there is no greater risk in drafting a foreign player.

The Bender case is interesting. Some think he's getting pegged this high simply on his size, but if that's the case then why didn't players like Gobert, Nurkic, Nogeira, etc. get drafted much higher simply for their size? The likelihood is that people are seeing something in Bender that the majority of us simply don't have accessibility to. Fair?

That's simply it, he hasn't played enough for anyone to come up with a definite conclusion.  He hasn't even played regular mins. So his coach doesn't think he is ready. 

And Benders reason for declaring for the draft? 

I'm not stating he needs stay but there is a "rush" feeling. He will do well in combine measurements. Maybe even individual workouts. But nobody will still know how he does in 5 on 5 play against good players. Better players than he is used to playing with and against.

We don't know what his stamina level is like.  If in stressful situations (5 min left) how he reacts.   If teams takeaway his strong pts or he is struggling what can he do to overcome on the fly

Right now the bigger question for me anyways is why he didn't get consistent playing time for a team that really could of used his so called talents

Triboy, you constantly contradict yourself so much that you don't even realize you do so, and I won't even bother to address it.

Bender is 18. This means that he would be a high school senior. How would he look playing on that level against peers his same age? Surely it's reasonable to suggest he would be one of the best players in the country, a guy all schools would covet, and a player that would be pegged on the same tier as a Giles, Tatum, and Jackson and a virtual lock to be a top 5 pick in 2017.

Wrong. Porzingis got min and made an impact prior to the NBA

18 year old?? So is Simmons, ingram , Murray etc

And you are so big on defending him and uncrentainty (using your argument he is so young and didnt get min). So you are big on him based on flash mainly? Bravo eddie20

Simmons is almost 20, Murray is 19, Brown is 19, Labiessiere is 20, and so on. Ingram is 18 though, so you did get 1 right.

Triboy, you're one of the people on this board that literally has no idea what they're talking about. Lillard over Curry, Burke the next CP3, Sabonis a top 5 pick, Mickey stopping Paul George, and Hield #1 overall are some of your gems. So until you start offering better analysis I'll continue to take whatever you say with a shovel of salt.

[Eddie20]

Eddie20 same thing you said about Cliff Alexandre.  The guy had a very poor freshman year.  Had issues off court

Yet based on "flash" , his wingspan, perceived toughness you wanted him over Mickey.

You think too lightly on accomplishments , what can be verified in addition to the flash.

I hate to break it you, but Mickey kind of sucks. In fact, Alexander and Mickey both suck right now. That said, I do think the former has more longterm potential based on his size, strength, wingspan, and youth.

[Evantime34]

Every year we get some mystery guys some they are Porzingas and sometimes they are Darko.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106856/nba-draft-the-numbers-on-international-lottery-picks

The supposedly great Israelis stats.   I concede his shooting is better but he has a lot of other problem areas.

http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

Still not the second coming folks.  Almost not blocks and crappy rebounding.

Due to the amount of international scouting nowadays you have far more hits than you have misses. The days of busts, like Tskitishvili and Darko, are fewer than ever. Could they still happen? Of course. However, when a player is projected to be a lottery pick it's usually for good reason.


International Lottery selections since 2010

2010
0

2011
Kanter
Valanciunus
Biyombo
Vesely

2012
0

2013
Greek Freek

2014
Exum
Saric

2015
Porzingis
Hezonja
Mudiay


You can easily say that the last international lottery pick that was a flat out bust was Vesely in 2011. It's not as though taking a domestic player provides a better percentage of success. It just might be that casual fans, those that aren't previed to amount of information of foreign players, feel much more at ease basing their opinion on something they know and have actually seen. Bender is projected to go top 3 by most every publication. This would be the highest international player selected in a very long time. I really doubt it's because they have seen a few highlight videos and are basing their mocks on that. More than likely, it's a combination of what they see themselves and hear from team scouts, executives, etc.

Outside of Giannis (who wasn't taken in the lottery IIRC), and Porzingis, have any of those guys lived up to expectations yet? Maybe JV (very debatable), but otherwise there's been a lot of overvaluing going on based on track record to date.

Giannis was #15, so technically 1 spot outside. I don't see how these guys, as a collective whole, haven't lived up to expectations, but the domestic kids have. Based on the number of busts on the domestic side, it's fair to say that there is no greater risk in drafting a foreign player.

The Bender case is interesting. Some think he's getting pegged this high simply on his size, but if that's the case then why didn't players like Gobert, Nurkic, Nogeira, etc. get drafted much higher simply for their size? The likelihood is that people are seeing something in Bender that the majority of us simply don't have accessibility to. Fair?

That's simply it, he hasn't played enough for anyone to come up with a definite conclusion.  He hasn't even played regular mins. So his coach doesn't think he is ready. 

And Benders reason for declaring for the draft? 

I'm not stating he needs stay but there is a "rush" feeling. He will do well in combine measurements. Maybe even individual workouts. But nobody will still know how he does in 5 on 5 play against good players. Better players than he is used to playing with and against.

We don't know what his stamina level is like.  If in stressful situations (5 min left) how he reacts.   If teams takeaway his strong pts or he is struggling what can he do to overcome on the fly

Right now the bigger question for me anyways is why he didn't get consistent playing time for a team that really could of used his so called talents

Triboy, you constantly contradict yourself so much that you don't even realize you do so, and I won't even bother to address it.

Bender is 18. This means that he would be a high school senior. How would he look playing on that level against peers his same age? Surely it's reasonable to suggest he would be one of the best players in the country, a guy all schools would covet, and a player that would be pegged on the same tier as a Giles, Tatum, and Jackson and a virtual lock to be a top 5 pick in 2017.

Wrong. Porzingis got min and made an impact prior to the NBA

18 year old?? So is Simmons, ingram , Murray etc

And you are so big on defending him and uncrentainty (using your argument he is so young and didnt get min). So you are big on him based on flash mainly? Bravo eddie20

Simmons is 20, Ingram and Murray are 19

[Eddie20]

My top 30 as of today

1. Karl Towns -
2. Okafor
3. Winslow
4. Russell
5. Mudiay
6.  WCS
7. Porzingis
8. Johnson
9. Oubre
10. Upshaw
11. Wood
12. Hezonja 
13. Kaminsky
14. Grant 
15. Payne
16. Turner
17. Booker
18. Hunter
19. Jones
20. Dekker
21. Lyles
22. Looney
23. RHJ
24. Harrell
25. De Paula
26. Luwawu
27. Anderson
28. Martin
29. Mcculough
30. Wright/Alexander/Christmas

You're way too low on Hezonja, Turner, and Dekker.

Hezonja is going to drop come draft night.  He is streaky right now and there were a few big games (one against Porzingis) he was like a ghost.   Plus he is a euro prospect

In order for Turner and Dekker to climb it means someone from my top 15 has to drop. Imo none will.   Grant and Payne are starting calibre pgs in the NBA. Upshaw and Wood will climb bc of their measurements, above the rim capability

Triboy, I just wanted to remind your thoughts on the draft last year. You had Upshaw and Wood going #10 and #11 and they both went undrafted. On Hezonja you said "plus, he's a euro prospect", which highlights why you had Porzingis 7th and probably have the close-mindedness when it comes to Bender.





Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71450.0;nowap

[TheSundanceKid]

My top 30 as of today

1. Karl Towns -
2. Okafor
3. Winslow
4. Russell
5. Mudiay
6.  WCS
7. Porzingis
8. Johnson
9. Oubre
10. Upshaw
11. Wood
12. Hezonja 
13. Kaminsky
14. Grant 
15. Payne
16. Turner
17. Booker
18. Hunter
19. Jones
20. Dekker
21. Lyles
22. Looney
23. RHJ
24. Harrell
25. De Paula
26. Luwawu
27. Anderson
28. Martin
29. Mcculough
30. Wright/Alexander/Christmas

You're way too low on Hezonja, Turner, and Dekker.

Hezonja is going to drop come draft night.  He is streaky right now and there were a few big games (one against Porzingis) he was like a ghost.   Plus he is a euro prospect

In order for Turner and Dekker to climb it means someone from my top 15 has to drop. Imo none will.   Grant and Payne are starting calibre pgs in the NBA. Upshaw and Wood will climb bc of their measurements, above the rim capability

Triboy, I just wanted to remind your thoughts on the draft last year. You had Upshaw and Wood going #10 and #11 and they both went undrafted. On Hezonja you said "plus, he's a euro prospect", which highlights why you had Porzingis 7th and probably have the close-mindedness when it comes to Bender.





Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71450.0;nowap

I am going to give you a TP everyday until the draft. That link is perfect. Thank you

[Tr1boy]

My top 30 as of today

1. Karl Towns -
2. Okafor
3. Winslow
4. Russell
5. Mudiay
6.  WCS
7. Porzingis
8. Johnson
9. Oubre
10. Upshaw
11. Wood
12. Hezonja 
13. Kaminsky
14. Grant 
15. Payne
16. Turner
17. Booker
18. Hunter
19. Jones
20. Dekker
21. Lyles
22. Looney
23. RHJ
24. Harrell
25. De Paula
26. Luwawu
27. Anderson
28. Martin
29. Mcculough
30. Wright/Alexander/Christmas

You're way too low on Hezonja, Turner, and Dekker.

Hezonja is going to drop come draft night.  He is streaky right now and there were a few big games (one against Porzingis) he was like a ghost.   Plus he is a euro prospect

In order for Turner and Dekker to climb it means someone from my top 15 has to drop. Imo none will.   Grant and Payne are starting calibre pgs in the NBA. Upshaw and Wood will climb bc of their measurements, above the rim capability

Triboy, I just wanted to remind your thoughts on the draft last year. You had Upshaw and Wood going #10 and #11 and they both went undrafted. On Hezonja you said "plus, he's a euro prospect", which highlights why you had Porzingis 7th and probably have the close-mindedness when it comes to Bender.





Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=71450.0;nowap

I am going to give you a TP everyday until the draft. That link is perfect. Thank you

The negative light on porzingis via this link Eddie20 provided was about lack of strength or uncertainty as to how much weight he can add. The question is still there but ppl are more at ease especially Knicks org bc he has other things going on to compensate/get excited about


Bender on the other hand not only lacks strength, has a slow release (not even a sure shooter) , no mid range game, on top of not embracing physical contact.   That was not what was said about porzingis at least.  Scrawny or not he tried to battle under the basket prior to the NBA. He plays with an edge you like to see. 

Bender? I haven't seen that .

It's nice we are having this debate but it is pointless in alot of ways as Danny is not going to pick him.  Some other teams risk/problem

[ederson]

Still doesn`t mean whatever he will say is wrong...

The previous euro wonder kid i remember is Rubio and he was key player in ACB and the spanish NT.
Porzignis also had a couple of good seasons in ACB. Bender has the label of "the-next-best-thing".

Same as Maker.

[Eddie20]

Still doesn`t mean whatever he will say is wrong...

The previous euro wonder kid i remember is Rubio and he was key player in ACB and the spanish NT.
Porzignis also had a couple of good seasons in ACB. Bender has the label of "the-next-best-thing".

Same as Maker.

No, not really. Maker, per scouts and draftniks, isn't in the same class as Bender. Maker is projected to be mid-1st at best, while Bender is viewed as a likely top 3 pick.

[ederson]

I meant that he was also supposed to be a wonder kid.

But they got to see Maker play....
Bender gets a 10mpg. Is that enough?

The scouts are scared , they don`t need another Giannis pick. Another guy who slipped in the draft because it wasn`t possible to scout him properly.

[TheSundanceKid]

I meant that he was also supposed to be a wonder kid.

But they got to see Maker play....
Bender gets a 10mpg. Is that enough?

The scouts are scared , they don`t need another Giannis pick. Another guy who slipped in the draft because it wasn`t possible to scout him properly.

According to one youtube video. Not according to scouts. Kind of like when Simmons was meant to be the next LeBron...until the true talent evaluators came out and said he'll not be reaching near that level

[Roy H.]

Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#

Consensus on Porzingis at the time was that he'd probably go in the teens, early 20s, if I'm remembering right.  If that was where Bender was being projected, I think it would be a no brainer to draft him.

Should Bender go as high or higher than Porzingis did (at age 19) despite having one less year of development (i.e., one less year an NBA team is likely to get a return on his contract)?

[Evantime34]

Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#

Consensus on Porzingis at the time was that he'd probably go in the teens, early 20s, if I'm remembering right.  If that was where Bender was being projected, I think it would be a no brainer to draft him.

Should Bender go as high or higher than Porzingis did (at age 19) despite having one less year of development (i.e., one less year an NBA team is likely to get a return on his contract)?

He's absolutely benefiting from the Porzingis hype. That being said, if Porzingis was drafted at 17 that would have been one of the biggest draft steals in the last 10 years.

You also have to take into account the fact that this year's draft is considerably weaker than that of 2014 (or at least was thought to be at the same time leading up to the draft)

[Roy H.]

Also, this is pretty interesting. This was in 2014, when Porzingis was 18, just like Bender is now. You'll notice it's the same critics that are now critical of Bender with basically the same narrative.

Why the celtics should not draft Kristaps Porzingis at 17#

Consensus on Porzingis at the time was that he'd probably go in the teens, early 20s, if I'm remembering right.  If that was where Bender was being projected, I think it would be a no brainer to draft him.

Should Bender go as high or higher than Porzingis did (at age 19) despite having one less year of development (i.e., one less year an NBA team is likely to get a return on his contract)?

He's absolutely benefiting from the Porzingis hype. That being said, if Porzingis was drafted at 17 that would have been one of the biggest draft steals in the last 10 years.

You also have to take into account the fact that this year's draft is considerably weaker than that of 2014 (or at least was thought to be at the same time leading up to the draft)

This is all true, as well.

I wish this was a year where there was a safer prospect who still had high upside.  Maybe that's Brown or Murray.  I think the real value comes from identifying the Euro prospects who stay in the draft and who offer a great value in the teens or twenties. 

By the way, did anybody see that NBADraft.net has Bender at #6 and Sabonis at #5?  Rabb at #8 and Brown at #9?  Their draft board is all over the place.