Zach Lowe: C's low-balled cavs for Love at the deadline

[MBunge]

I've heard Lowe on podcasts with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism when Bill suggests Marcus Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen.   

20-year-old rookie Marcus Smart was already better than 23-year-old rookie Tony Allen.  The difference is the level of expectation for a #6 pick on a team fighting to make the playoffs vs. a #25 pick playing a small role on a title contender.

Mike

[jpotter33]

We should be trying to use our Brooklyn pick for a trade in this order - 1) Boogie, 2) Butler, 3) Love or Okafor. I was a big proponent of getting Love for a long time, but the more time goes by the less I want him. If the Brooklyn pick  falls outside of the top two picks, then I wouldn't mind ultimately trading it for Love, but only after we've failed to trade for better fits on our team in Boogie and Butler.

[kozlodoev]

I've heard Lowe on podcasts with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism when Bill suggests Marcus Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen.   

20-year-old rookie Marcus Smart was already better than 23-year-old rookie Tony Allen.  The difference is the level of expectation for a #6 pick on a team fighting to make the playoffs vs. a #25 pick playing a small role on a title contender.

Yeah, try that again. Tony Allen started 34 games on 45-win team in his rookie season. He was better defensively than Smart at that point, and wasn't a (complete) embarrassment when trying to score the ball. There's no comparison.

[jbpats]

I've heard Lowe on podcasts with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism when Bill suggests Marcus Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen.   

20-year-old rookie Marcus Smart was already better than 23-year-old rookie Tony Allen.  The difference is the level of expectation for a #6 pick on a team fighting to make the playoffs vs. a #25 pick playing a small role on a title contender.

Mike

I'm not so sure I agree. Tony didn't really have a chance to shine until Pierce went down, after he stepped into that starting role he was a very dominating player (I believe 2007).. then of course he shatters his leg and the rest is history.
Marcus has received a significant amount of playing time for a player his age, Tony's rookie and sophomore years were based on playing behind Paul Pierce during his prime.. there's a big difference in comparison.

[kozlodoev]

I've heard Lowe on podcasts with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism when Bill suggests Marcus Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen.   

20-year-old rookie Marcus Smart was already better than 23-year-old rookie Tony Allen.  The difference is the level of expectation for a #6 pick on a team fighting to make the playoffs vs. a #25 pick playing a small role on a title contender.

Mike

I'm not so sure I agree. Tony didn't really have a chance to shine until Pierce went down, after he stepped into that starting role he was a very dominating player (I believe 2007).. then of course he shatters his leg and the rest is history.
Marcus has received a significant amount of playing time for a player his age, Tony's rookie and sophomore years were based on playing behind Paul Pierce during his prime.. there's a big difference in comparison.

In Tony Allen's rookie year, otherwise known as the time when Jiri Welsch turned into a pumpkin, Allen established himself firmly as a starter over the last 3 months. Next year he was mostly backing up Wally and Ricky Davis, but got a bump in playing time overall.

I'm not sure he was ever really going to shine given his persistent shortcomings (can only drive in a straight line, can't shoot the tree reliably), but on the balance he was a more complete player than Marcus Smart. Smart's offensive game right now is Tony Allen without the straight-line dribble drive.

[aingeforthree]

We should be trying to use our Brooklyn pick for a trade in this order - 1) Boogie, 2) Butler, 3) Love or Okafor. I was a big proponent of getting Love for a long time, but the more time goes by the less I want him. If the Brooklyn pick  falls outside of the top two picks, then I wouldn't mind ultimately trading it for Love, but only after we've failed to trade for better fits on our team in Boogie and Butler.

I think Love is Ainge's main target in trade.  Not Boogie.  Like IT4, Love is the one he's going after and eventually getting.

Then he goes after Horford in free agency.  Fills in the blanks with the remaining picks in either trade, or just using them altogether.

[PhoSita]

TA is a much better finisher than Smart at age 34; that's both impressive for TA and concerning for Smart.

Should be noted, Smart is a much better passer and playmaker.  I trust Smart to run a pick and roll.  I never ever trusted Tony Turnover to do that.

I'd rather have Tony in an off-ball role than Smart, though.

[slamtheking]

We should be trying to use our Brooklyn pick for a trade in this order - 1) Boogie, 2) Butler, 3) Love or Okafor. I was a big proponent of getting Love for a long time, but the more time goes by the less I want him. If the Brooklyn pick  falls outside of the top two picks, then I wouldn't mind ultimately trading it for Love, but only after we've failed to trade for better fits on our team in Boogie and Butler.

I think Love is Ainge's main target in trade.  Not Boogie.  Like IT4, Love is the one he's going after and eventually getting.

Then he goes after Horford in free agency.  Fills in the blanks with the remaining picks in either trade, or just using them altogether.

not an implausible plan.  would be a very nice upgrade on our frontcourt if we got both of those guys. 

Durant is a longshot in 2017 --> having both of those guys would probably kill the cap room to sign him but who knows.  the talent would certainly be a significant lure for him.

[danglertx]

Is two firsts and two expirings for Love a lowball offer?  For the love in Minnesota, yes.  For the Love in Cleveland?  I don't think so.  Max money for a very non max performance the last two seasons isn't going to net you a substantial package. 

His shooting from the floor and three point line aren't that great.  And his defense?

[Moranis]

Sure Cavs went high and C's went low as neither team was really pushing for a mid season trade. My guess is Cavs asked for AB, Crowder, Sully, Dallas and Nets pick. Then C's went Smart, AJ, Turner, Dallas and C's 1st round picks.

I wouldn't consider that a low ball offer either. Smart, Amir, Turner and 2 first round picks? I feel like the Cavs would be crazy to say no to that offer.

Agreed - no way Cleveland would have said no to that package.  Smart defends the tougher guard freeing up Kyrie to focus on offense.  Amir and Turner are more-than-serviceable vets to add to that team.  add 2 firsts into the deal for a PF that's not performing up to expectations on offense or the boards and is a defensive sieve --> Cleveland would have been foolish to turn that down.

I think the C's would be foolish to offer either deal though. 
The first one costs them their starting SG, their starting SF, their best rebounder and the top 2 picks they have in this upcoming draft including a top-5 pick. 
The second isn't a killer in terms of cost of overall talent but costs them their 2 primary back up ballhandlers, starting C and doesn't thin out the PF ranks but adds to them instead.  This trade's a problem for me in consideration of roster balance going forward.

Kevin Love is averaging 9.9 rpg (11th in the league) or 11.2 rp36.  His RB% of 17.7 is 20th in the league and he is playing mostly next to Thompson who is at 18.7 (15th in the league), Movgov who is at 14.7% and James who is at 11.8%.  I'd say Love's rebounding has been just fine (as a comparison Sullinger is the person playing this year on Boston that is even above 15).

[Boris Badenov]

Interesting given all the talk recently about how Danny has assembled a team full of guys with something to prove - chip on the shoulder types.

I'd say Love is now in that category, especially if Cleveland moves him for a subpar trade package.

[aingeforthree]

We should be trying to use our Brooklyn pick for a trade in this order - 1) Boogie, 2) Butler, 3) Love or Okafor. I was a big proponent of getting Love for a long time, but the more time goes by the less I want him. If the Brooklyn pick  falls outside of the top two picks, then I wouldn't mind ultimately trading it for Love, but only after we've failed to trade for better fits on our team in Boogie and Butler.

I think Love is Ainge's main target in trade.  Not Boogie.  Like IT4, Love is the one he's going after and eventually getting.

Then he goes after Horford in free agency.  Fills in the blanks with the remaining picks in either trade, or just using them altogether.

not an implausible plan.  would be a very nice upgrade on our frontcourt if we got both of those guys. 

Durant is a longshot in 2017 --> having both of those guys would probably kill the cap room to sign him but who knows.  the talent would certainly be a significant lure for him.

Implausible for me is Durant.

Love and Horford is very much on the table, and if I'm taking an educated guess, both are Danny Ainge targets.  One in trade, the other in free agency.  The free agent is a tough one, but book Ainge getting his man Love in trade.

If I'm a big, I'm worried about my roster spot.  I don't think Johnson is back regardless (free agent), but maybe.  Everybody else & some picks are on the table in the Love trade.

My guess is he wants to build a championship roster centered around IT, Bradley, Crowder, Love, and Horford, with Smart & Turner (still might be a question mark a la the Tony Allen situation-money) off the bench.  He will fill in the rest of the roster with his youth and treasure chest of picks (or sending youth plus picks in another trade).

[apc]

Interesting given all the talk recently about how Danny has assembled a team full of guys with something to prove - chip on the shoulder types.

I'd say Love is now in that category, especially if Cleveland moves him for a subpar trade package.

And Cousins trying to prove he is not a headcase. 

[GreenShooter]

Interesting given all the talk recently about how Danny has assembled a team full of guys with something to prove - chip on the shoulder types.

I'd say Love is now in that category, especially if Cleveland moves him for a subpar trade package.

And Cousins trying to prove he is not a headcase. 

I think, in this case, some causes stay lost. What a waste thus far.

[MBunge]

I've heard Lowe on podcasts with Bill Simmons expressing skepticism when Bill suggests Marcus Smart could some day be as good as Tony Allen.   

20-year-old rookie Marcus Smart was already better than 23-year-old rookie Tony Allen.  The difference is the level of expectation for a #6 pick on a team fighting to make the playoffs vs. a #25 pick playing a small role on a title contender.

Yeah, try that again. Tony Allen started 34 games on 45-win team in his rookie season. He was better defensively than Smart at that point, and wasn't a (complete) embarrassment when trying to score the ball. There's no comparison.

Ah, rose-colored glasses.

Tony Allen rookie stats.
16.4 minutes a game.  6.4 pts.  2.9 rebs.  1 steal.  .8 assists.  1 turnover.  4.6 two point shots a game at 48%.  .4 three point shots a game at 38%.

Marcus Smart rookie stats.
27 minutes a game.  7.9 pts.  3.3 rebs.  1.5 steals.  3.1 assists.  1.3 turnovers.  3.1 two point shots a game at 41%.  4.1 three points shots a game at 33%.

You're remembering TA as better than Marcus primarily because TA wasn't asked to do much besides defend and make layups.  TA barely ever handled the ball, was a turnover machine when he did and was basically NEVER asked to space the floor with his jumpshot.  At three years younger, Marcus was being asked to do far more offensively than TA was at three years older.  In his rookie season, Marcus was being asked to average more three point shots a game than TA ever averaged in any four years of his career COMBINED.

And yes, Marcus is shooting so many three pointers because that's the role Stevens has put him in for the offense, much the same reason Sully kept chucking them the two previous seasons.

Mike