I can see the Celtics drafting Domantas Sabonis

[saltlover]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

I disagree. Upside is nice, but having cheap rotation players is necessary for maintaining cap flexibility.

A guy like Maker could conceivably turn into a great player. There's a what, 5% chance of that? At the same time, he's a wasted salary slot for 3-4 years.

Do you think that the Raptors would prefer their upside pick of Bruno Caboclo, or the less risky Rodney Hood?

Sure, it's fine to point at Rodney Hood, but there have been a number of "safe" picks that haven't panned out.  It's not like Hood was guaranteed to become the player he's looking like, and certainly not so quickly.  (I still beat the scars of JuJuan Johnson.) I'd even argue it was more likely than not that Hood wouldn't be a useful player.  Certainly more likely than Caboclo or Young to succeed, but success is so difficult in the NBA, betting on any player outside of the top 5-10 isn't great odds.  The Jazz also need to be given some credit with their player development.  Gobert was only slightly less raw than Caboclo, and he's become a pretty special player after a couple of years.

Similar to investing strategies, you need diversity in the risk-reward ratio of your draft picks.  Some picks need to be full of upside, and others need to be safer.  Too much upside and you probably have one start and $40 million in salary committed to busts.  Too little risk and you have a team that has the second round as its ceiling, and late lottery as its floor.

Looking at any given pick is the wrong way to go about things.  You need to look at the collection of picks as a whole.  In the case of the Celtics, it's pretty clear that James Young didn't pan out, and obviously we'd rather have Hood.  But at the same time, when you think of what the Celtics need, it's next-level talent.  James Young was widely seen as someone who had a CHANCE to provide that talent.  That he didn't is both unfortunate and unsurprising.  More likely than not he was going to flame out.  But as many picks as the Celtics had coming up, they could afford such risk.  The Raptors were a solid team, also with a couple extra picks in future years, and similarly could afford to take a risk on someone who might never provide a useful minute.  Useful minutes are not that hard to come by with free agents. Great minutes are.

Getting back to Sabonis, I'm personally unexcited, and I think he's a bit riskier than some of this board makes him out to be.  But for sake of argument, I'll concede that he's a higher-floor, medium ceiling type of player who could provide a few useful minutes in his rookie year and top out at average NBA starter.  With three first-rounders, I'd hope that Ainge would draft one such player, especially a front court player.  But I'd also hope that he's pick up a couple of guys trying to hit a homerun, because we need those players too.  Evaluate the full basket of risk and reward, and not any one player.

[Roy H.]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

I disagree. Upside is nice, but having cheap rotation players is necessary for maintaining cap flexibility.

A guy like Maker could conceivably turn into a great player. There's a what, 5% chance of that? At the same time, he's a wasted salary slot for 3-4 years.

Do you think that the Raptors would prefer their upside pick of Bruno Caboclo, or the less risky Rodney Hood?

Sure, it's fine to point at Rodney Hood, but there have been a number of "safe" picks that haven't panned out.  It's not like Hood was guaranteed to become the player he's looking like, and certainly not so quickly.  (I still beat the scars of JuJuan Johnson.) I'd even argue it was more likely than not that Hood wouldn't be a useful player.  Certainly more likely than Caboclo or Young to succeed, but success is so difficult in the NBA, betting on any player outside of the top 5-10 isn't great odds.  The Jazz also need to be given some credit with their player development.  Gobert was only slightly less raw than Caboclo, and he's become a pretty special player after a couple of years.

Similar to investing strategies, you need diversity in the risk-reward ratio of your draft picks.  Some picks need to be full of upside, and others need to be safer.  Too much upside and you probably have one start and $40 million in salary committed to busts.  Too little risk and you have a team that has the second round as its ceiling, and late lottery as its floor.

Looking at any given pick is the wrong way to go about things.  You need to look at the collection of picks as a whole.  In the case of the Celtics, it's pretty clear that James Young didn't pan out, and obviously we'd rather have Hood.  But at the same time, when you think of what the Celtics need, it's next-level talent.  James Young was widely seen as someone who had a CHANCE to provide that talent.  That he didn't is both unfortunate and unsurprising.  More likely than not he was going to flame out.  But as many picks as the Celtics had coming up, they could afford such risk.  The Raptors were a solid team, also with a couple extra picks in future years, and similarly could afford to take a risk on someone who might never provide a useful minute.  Useful minutes are not that hard to come by with free agents. Great minutes are.

Getting back to Sabonis, I'm personally unexcited, and I think he's a bit riskier than some of this board makes him out to be.  But for sake of argument, I'll concede that he's a higher-floor, medium ceiling type of player who could provide a few useful minutes in his rookie year and top out at average NBA starter.  With three first-rounders, I'd hope that Ainge would draft one such player, especially a front court player.  But I'd also hope that he's pick up a couple of guys trying to hit a homerun, because we need those players too.  Evaluate the full basket of risk and reward, and not any one player.

So can I assume that you're a fan of drafting the "two years away from being two years away" prospect, like Caboclo or Thon Maker?

Me, I'd rather decline to take a first rounder, and give whatever guaranteed money the future bust would get to Dana Farber.

[saltlover]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

I disagree. Upside is nice, but having cheap rotation players is necessary for maintaining cap flexibility.

A guy like Maker could conceivably turn into a great player. There's a what, 5% chance of that? At the same time, he's a wasted salary slot for 3-4 years.

Do you think that the Raptors would prefer their upside pick of Bruno Caboclo, or the less risky Rodney Hood?

Sure, it's fine to point at Rodney Hood, but there have been a number of "safe" picks that haven't panned out.  It's not like Hood was guaranteed to become the player he's looking like, and certainly not so quickly.  (I still beat the scars of JuJuan Johnson.) I'd even argue it was more likely than not that Hood wouldn't be a useful player.  Certainly more likely than Caboclo or Young to succeed, but success is so difficult in the NBA, betting on any player outside of the top 5-10 isn't great odds.  The Jazz also need to be given some credit with their player development.  Gobert was only slightly less raw than Caboclo, and he's become a pretty special player after a couple of years.

Similar to investing strategies, you need diversity in the risk-reward ratio of your draft picks.  Some picks need to be full of upside, and others need to be safer.  Too much upside and you probably have one start and $40 million in salary committed to busts.  Too little risk and you have a team that has the second round as its ceiling, and late lottery as its floor.

Looking at any given pick is the wrong way to go about things.  You need to look at the collection of picks as a whole.  In the case of the Celtics, it's pretty clear that James Young didn't pan out, and obviously we'd rather have Hood.  But at the same time, when you think of what the Celtics need, it's next-level talent.  James Young was widely seen as someone who had a CHANCE to provide that talent.  That he didn't is both unfortunate and unsurprising.  More likely than not he was going to flame out.  But as many picks as the Celtics had coming up, they could afford such risk.  The Raptors were a solid team, also with a couple extra picks in future years, and similarly could afford to take a risk on someone who might never provide a useful minute.  Useful minutes are not that hard to come by with free agents. Great minutes are.

Getting back to Sabonis, I'm personally unexcited, and I think he's a bit riskier than some of this board makes him out to be.  But for sake of argument, I'll concede that he's a higher-floor, medium ceiling type of player who could provide a few useful minutes in his rookie year and top out at average NBA starter.  With three first-rounders, I'd hope that Ainge would draft one such player, especially a front court player.  But I'd also hope that he's pick up a couple of guys trying to hit a homerun, because we need those players too.  Evaluate the full basket of risk and reward, and not any one player.

So can I assume that you're a fan of drafting the "two years away from being two years away" prospect, like Caboclo or Thon Maker?

Me, I'd rather decline to take a first rounder, and give whatever guaranteed money the future bust would get to Dana Farber.

No.  I'm a fan of taking some from Column A and some from Column B.  We're taking on average 2 first rounders a year for 6 straight seasons.  A mixture of safe picks and long shots with high potential payoffs is optimal.

If Caboclo had turned into Giannis or Gobert, two high-ceiling, low floor players, I don't think Toronto would have rather picked Hood.

I will go on record and say I don't think Sabonis is actually a low-risk player.  I don't think he starts the majority of games in a season for a team with a winning record in his first six seasons.  But getting away from any specific player, I think the Celtics should take a mixture of risk and ceiling throughout these years of multiple picks.  There will always be the safe pick they miss out on.  There will also be the risky pick they missed out on.  Look at the totality of the drafts across multiple seasons, and not a singular pick, to evaluate what makes sense.

[crimson_stallion]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

upside not special, not exceptional wingspan etc.

You know who had little to no upside.  Crowder

But would you really take half of the sfs in the league over Crowder? 

PPl also probably said these other sfs had so much updside and in some ways they still have room to reach it. But would you take any of them over Crowder is the question

So tell me - back when Crowder got drafted, on draft day, if you had a top 10 pick, would you have used it on Crowder?

Also crowder is a totally different player to Sabonis.  He had some elite physical talents from the start.  Great physical strength for the SF spot, 7 foot wingspan, good (if not great) athleticism.  Crowder was a physically talented guy who wasnt that skilled.

Sabonis is the opposite.  He's a skilled guy who's lacking in physical talent.  You can teach skill.  You cant teach size and athleticism.  There are sone things that Sabonis will just never be.

Its like Phil Pressey. I loved that kid when he was here.  He was so quick, had such a great motor, was such a hard worker, played with a chip on his shoulder.  But at the end of the day he couldnt shoit and he couldnt overcome the fact that he was 5'10" and outmatched on talent every night.  No matter how hard he worked, there was only so much he could be.

[Tr1boy]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

upside not special, not exceptional wingspan etc.

You know who had little to no upside.  Crowder

But would you really take half of the sfs in the league over Crowder? 

PPl also probably said these other sfs had so much updside and in some ways they still have room to reach it. But would you take any of them over Crowder is the question

So tell me - back when Crowder got drafted, on draft day, if you had a top 10 pick, would you have used it on Crowder?

Also crowder is a totally different player to Sabonis.  He had some elite physical talents from the start.  Great physical strength for the SF spot, 7 foot wingspan, good (if not great) athleticism.  Crowder was a physically talented guy who wasnt that skilled.

Sabonis is the opposite.  He's a skilled guy who's lacking in physical talent.  You can teach skill.  You cant teach size and athleticism.  There are sone things that Sabonis will just never be.

Its like Phil Pressey. I loved that kid when he was here.  He was so quick, had such a great motor, was such a hard worker, played with a chip on his shoulder.  But at the end of the day he couldnt shoit and he couldnt overcome the fact that he was 5'10" and outmatched on talent every night.  No matter how hard he worked, there was only so much he could be.

you don't have your facts straight

1st) Sabonis is a combination of skill and the definition of physicality.  He is really strong . Strength is def undervalued but it is just as important as wingspan, how high you can fly.   How many times do players sky in for rebounds?? Its mainly about using strength, smarts, boxing out, battling to grab that rebound.  Include natural instincts which Sabonis has.

Listen if he was 6'8 or even 6'9 with that wingspan , not a great athlete, lack of strength but was a good rebounder in college,  I would be worried as to how such player will pan out in the NBA. 

There is lots going against such player to succeed

but Sabonis is at least a legit 6'10 and could be closer to 6'11

Are you telling me, this is not a good height for an NBA power forward?  What you have to be 7'0 or 7'1 now??

The taller you are (not always) means you are likely to have a longer reach. Or quicker to the ball once going up for the rebound.


I think you been turned off by KO, Zeller and some other guys with avg wingspan and ok leaping ability.    But then there are guys like Millsap, David West, Draymond Green that prove a different story

Draymond green even though has a nice 7'2 wingspan, is literally only 6'6.  But he can rebound bc he is strong, boxes out consistently like a champ, relentless after the ball.  He is not explosive at all and rarely dunks the ball.   

[Eddie20]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

upside not special, not exceptional wingspan etc.

You know who had little to no upside.  Crowder

But would you really take half of the sfs in the league over Crowder? 

PPl also probably said these other sfs had so much updside and in some ways they still have room to reach it. But would you take any of them over Crowder is the question

So tell me - back when Crowder got drafted, on draft day, if you had a top 10 pick, would you have used it on Crowder?

Also crowder is a totally different player to Sabonis.  He had some elite physical talents from the start.  Great physical strength for the SF spot, 7 foot wingspan, good (if not great) athleticism.  Crowder was a physically talented guy who wasnt that skilled.

Sabonis is the opposite.  He's a skilled guy who's lacking in physical talent.  You can teach skill.  You cant teach size and athleticism.  There are sone things that Sabonis will just never be.

Its like Phil Pressey. I loved that kid when he was here.  He was so quick, had such a great motor, was such a hard worker, played with a chip on his shoulder.  But at the end of the day he couldnt shoit and he couldnt overcome the fact that he was 5'10" and outmatched on talent every night.  No matter how hard he worked, there was only so much he could be.

you don't have your facts straight

1st) Sabonis is a combination of skill and the definition of physicality.  He is really strong . Strength is def undervalued but it is just as important as wingspan, how high you can fly.   How many times do players sky in for rebounds?? Its mainly about using strength, smarts, boxing out, battling to grab that rebound.  Include natural instincts which Sabonis has.

Listen if he was 6'8 or even 6'9 with that wingspan , not a great athlete, lack of strength but was a good rebounder in college,  I would be worried as to how such player will pan out in the NBA. 

There is lots going against such player to succeed

but Sabonis is at least a legit 6'10 and could be closer to 6'11

Are you telling me, this is not a good height for an NBA power forward?  What you have to be 7'0 or 7'1 now??

The taller you are (not always) means you are likely to have a longer reach. Or quicker to the ball once going up for the rebound.


I think you been turned off by KO, Zeller and some other guys with avg wingspan and ok leaping ability.    But then there are guys like Millsap, David West, Draymond Green that prove a different story

Draymond green even though has a nice 7'2 wingspan, is literally only 6'6.  But he can rebound bc he is strong, boxes out consistently like a champ, relentless after the ball.  He is not explosive at all and rarely dunks the ball.   

I like Sabonis a lot, but he's a throwback type of player in this new age of stretch 4's. Offensively, he's skilled, but he does lack range, which will hurt spacing. Defensively he's going to have loads of trouble staying in front of the the modern day 4. He lacks lateral speed and I see him as a major liability defending in space, especially in the high PNR. He reminds me a lot of Scola, who I love and was terrific in his prime. However, Scola had to reinvent himself this season and developed a 3 ball because his style is becoming obsolete. Sabonis needs to do the same.

[Tr1boy]

We will have enough good players... we need some great.. too many picks to gamble... sabonis upside is not special... skai maker could be somethnig better

upside not special, not exceptional wingspan etc.

You know who had little to no upside.  Crowder

But would you really take half of the sfs in the league over Crowder? 

PPl also probably said these other sfs had so much updside and in some ways they still have room to reach it. But would you take any of them over Crowder is the question

So tell me - back when Crowder got drafted, on draft day, if you had a top 10 pick, would you have used it on Crowder?

Also crowder is a totally different player to Sabonis.  He had some elite physical talents from the start.  Great physical strength for the SF spot, 7 foot wingspan, good (if not great) athleticism.  Crowder was a physically talented guy who wasnt that skilled.

Sabonis is the opposite.  He's a skilled guy who's lacking in physical talent.  You can teach skill.  You cant teach size and athleticism.  There are sone things that Sabonis will just never be.

Its like Phil Pressey. I loved that kid when he was here.  He was so quick, had such a great motor, was such a hard worker, played with a chip on his shoulder.  But at the end of the day he couldnt shoit and he couldnt overcome the fact that he was 5'10" and outmatched on talent every night.  No matter how hard he worked, there was only so much he could be.

you don't have your facts straight

1st) Sabonis is a combination of skill and the definition of physicality.  He is really strong . Strength is def undervalued but it is just as important as wingspan, how high you can fly.   How many times do players sky in for rebounds?? Its mainly about using strength, smarts, boxing out, battling to grab that rebound.  Include natural instincts which Sabonis has.

Listen if he was 6'8 or even 6'9 with that wingspan , not a great athlete, lack of strength but was a good rebounder in college,  I would be worried as to how such player will pan out in the NBA. 

There is lots going against such player to succeed

but Sabonis is at least a legit 6'10 and could be closer to 6'11

Are you telling me, this is not a good height for an NBA power forward?  What you have to be 7'0 or 7'1 now??

The taller you are (not always) means you are likely to have a longer reach. Or quicker to the ball once going up for the rebound.


I think you been turned off by KO, Zeller and some other guys with avg wingspan and ok leaping ability.    But then there are guys like Millsap, David West, Draymond Green that prove a different story

Draymond green even though has a nice 7'2 wingspan, is literally only 6'6.  But he can rebound bc he is strong, boxes out consistently like a champ, relentless after the ball.  He is not explosive at all and rarely dunks the ball.   

I like Sabonis a lot, but he's a throwback type of player in this new age of stretch 4's. Offensively, he's skilled, but he does lack range, which will hurt spacing. Defensively he's going to have loads of trouble staying in front of the the modern day 4. He lacks lateral speed and I see him as a major liability defending in space, especially in the high PNR. He reminds me a lot of Scola, who I love and was terrific in his prime. However, Scola had to reinvent himself this season and developed a 3 ball because his style is becoming obsolete. Sabonis needs to do the same.

Scola is old now.  Still a pain in the butt to play against

And you either got this quality or you don't. 

You are incorrect about Sabonis lack of lateral quickness.  You make him sound as slow as Sullinger

Sabonis is no WCS but he is a quick as KO (check out his def rating).   

as long as you have decent lateral quickness/anticipate well/high iq/motor,  you can be a good perimeter defender (any position).   Look at Westbrook. A blaze compared to Smart. Yet smart is a better team and individual defender

[vjcsmoke]

I like Sabonis as a high floor guy, but he needs to improve upon a few aspects of his game if he is going to aspire to be a starter level player in the NBA.  First he has to improve his stretch game, shooting 3's, and shooting the wide open long 2's if that's all he can get.  He can't allow defenders to sag off him without making them pay.  Otherwise it will be like playing 4 on 5 at times offensively.

Also, his shotblocking is not that great, it's under a block per game, at the NCAA level, the dominant big men will average 2-5 blocks per 40.  So I don't see him as a dominant defender as a big man, but that's ok as long as he plays positionally sound defense and can still bother/contest shots heavily.

If Sabonis were a couple of inches taller and longer, we wouldn't have questions about him, even with his limited athleticism, because size covers up a lot in the NBA.  Right now I see him in the 11-16 range, as a rotational player, with upside to become a starter IF he can improve those areas of his game.

Sabonis college stats:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/domantas-sabonis-1.html

[Tr1boy]

I like Sabonis as a high floor guy, but he needs to improve upon a few aspects of his game if he is going to aspire to be a starter level player in the NBA.  First he has to improve his stretch game, shooting 3's, and shooting the wide open long 2's if that's all he can get.  He can't allow defenders to sag off him without making them pay.  Otherwise it will be like playing 4 on 5 at times offensively.

Also, his shotblocking is not that great, it's under a block per game, at the NCAA level, the dominant big men will average 2-5 blocks per 40.  So I don't see him as a dominant defender as a big man, but that's ok as long as he plays positionally sound defense and can still bother/contest shots heavily.

If Sabonis were a couple of inches taller and longer, we wouldn't have questions about him, even with his limited athleticism, because size covers up a lot in the NBA.  Right now I see him in the 11-16 range, as a rotational player, with upside to become a starter IF he can improve those areas of his game.

I don't think he will ever be a shot blocker but thats not to say he won't be a good rim protector

for example look at Jerebko

taking charges, beating you to the spot so you don't have a clear shot, boxing out, having a hand up  as much as possible

Also some of the things Sabonis can do on the offensive end , you can tell his father taught him well. He is extremely patient and rarely gets his shots blocked.   Example he will go up and under, left to right but when he is ready to shoot have his elbows close to your chest/face so your long wingspan can't bother it.    When going for layups he will use his left hand but also raise his right arm straightup to shield the block. How savvy/smart is this?

He def uses tricks we can't easily identify to grab difficult rebounds

THIS said I understand the concerns some have about parts of his game and how it may translate in the nba.    i don't know, I'm just really impressed about everything else going on, that these concerns are minimal. His ability to improve his FT shooting from 66 to 74 plus shoot at 35 3 pt shot (0 attempted in his first year) shows to me he is able to grow his game/refine.  Lets not forget his ridiculously high FG percentage for a pf,  Reb per avg for his college career at 21.1 (top 2 believe last year).  Carrying his team to the top 16

[Greenback]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

[vjcsmoke]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

If this was an Age 21 Arvydis Sabonis, yes... that guy was a very high quality player and 7-3.  But Sabonis Jr. is not nearly as long and gifted as his dad.  Doc Rivers Jr, Austin Rivers was not nearly as good as his dad got drafted high, but didn't pan out.  You have to look at the overall package, not just the last name on the jersey.

Domantas Sabonis has some positives to him, the solid rebounding, nonstop motor, and good post game.  But the modern NBA demands a lot more of the 4 position.  When you are making a pick early in the 1st round, you need to evaluate everything.  Sabonis does not have elite length, athleticism, shotblocking, or shooting.  So we need to project a few things based on where he is currently and see what we might end up with.

I'm ok with him in the 11-16 range, but I don't currently see him as a top 10 player in this draft based on the factors I mentioned above.

[Roy H.]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

Sabonis' dad is an easy first ballot HOFer. Easily one of the best ever. Genetics only get you so far though.

[Tr1boy]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

If this was an Age 21 Arvydis Sabonis, yes... that guy was a very high quality player and 7-3.  But Sabonis Jr. is not nearly as long and gifted as his dad.  Doc Rivers Jr, Austin Rivers was not nearly as good as his dad got drafted high, but didn't pan out.  You have to look at the overall package, not just the last name on the jersey.

Domantas Sabonis has some positives to him, the solid rebounding, nonstop motor, and good post game.  But the modern NBA demands a lot more of the 4 position.  When you are making a pick early in the 1st round, you need to evaluate everything.  Sabonis does not have elite length, athleticism, shotblocking, or shooting.  So we need to project a few things based on where he is currently and see what we might end up with.

I'm ok with him in the 11-16 range, but I don't currently see him as a top 10 player in this draft based on the factors I mentioned above.

So who are bigs in your top 10 and why?   

Please don't just say "upside".   

[kozlodoev]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

If I were you, I wouldn't bet the house on a nbadraft.net prediction.

[Tr1boy]

Check out this link:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/domantas-sabonis

NBA draft net has Sabonis going #7 to Denver in their mock draft.  What better big is there?  Bender?  Seriously?

Bill Walton said that Sabonis dad is the best big man he has ever seen - bar none.   You draft the kid with your first pick.

If I were you, I wouldn't bet the house on a nbadraft.net prediction.

nbadraft.net , draftexpress, espn etc.

This is going to be a "wild" and "unpredictable" draft to say the least

after Simmons and Ingram, it's open season