Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?

[Jon]

This came up in another thread  about Jordan Mickey where some posters were comparing Brad Stevens to Doc Rivers in terms of his perceived lack of desire to play youngsters over vets.  But as far as I can remember, this has never been true of Doc, Brad, or any Celtic coach of my memory dating back to the late '80s. 

What I do remember is fans pining for the likes of Bill Walker, J.R. Giddens, Luke Harangody, Justin Greene, and Kedrick Brown to get court time that they very clearly never deserved. 

I also remember Doc playing youngsters that deserved to play including Big Baby Davis, Leon Powe, Tony Allen, and Avery Bradley, who we shouldn't forget that Doc kept in the starting lineup at the age of 21 even when Ray Allen came back from injury. 

And the same is true for Stevens.  He didn't hesitate to put Marcus Smart in big positions his rookie year and last, just as he hasn't hesitated to give Kelly Olynyk and Jared Sullinger minutes over vets. 

I think if there's any argument to be made, it's that fans have had unrealistic expectations for youngsters over the course of the past decade plus. 

My point here isn't to take a shot at Jordan Mickey.  I like him and think he'll eventually be a nice player.  What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it. 

[passesofftodj]

I have to admit that I really thought Bill Walker was going to be a good player. 

The rest you mentioned didn't ever show me anything, and I never liked Harangody in college as far as pro potential.

Of this year's rookies the one I was most excited about was Hunter, who hasn't looked like much lately...not that he is getting any run.

[Ilikesports17]

I think you are mostly right.

AB only got a chance because of injury, but then when he got his shot he forced Doc to give him a role.

Young and Hunter have gotten their shot and failed to force Brad into giving them minutes.

It looks like Mickey is going to get his shot here. Lets see if he can force his way into minutes.

[Denis998]

In terms of the BS rookies,this years, they just have so much depth that they are the odd players out. We kinda knew this going into the season. Giving proper roster space, Brad would most likely play the rookies, as he did with KO and Smart so far.

[timpiker]

Chauncey Billups.  Thank you Rick Pitino.

[GreenWarrior]

there is no comparison between Doc and Stevens. I'm not going to go through the list of players Doc did and didn't play, I'll just use Al Jefferson as an example. Doc would have big Al sittin on the bench on nights we could have used 'em, Doc would also bench Al because someone on the perimeter couldn't stay in front of their guy.

for the most part though I agreed with Doc on the philosophy that the young guys had to earn it. I do think he took it too far though.

Stevens has had nothing but young guys since he got here, what are we talking about? 

[Surferdad]

Chauncey Billups.  Thank you Rick Pitino.

Yup, he's the one that came to my mind too.

[Eja117]

there is no comparison between Doc and Stevens. I'm not going to go through the list of players Doc did and didn't play, I'll just use Al Jefferson as an example. Doc would have big Al sittin on the bench on nights we could have used 'em, Doc would also bench Al because someone on the perimeter couldn't stay in front of their guy.

for the most part though I agreed with Doc on the philosophy that the young guys had to earn it. I do think he took it too far though.

Stevens has had nothing but young guys since he got here, what are we talking about?

Stevens would have taught Gerald Green defense. Doc just tossed his hands up in the air and was like "yeah I don't know".

[Eja117]

Justin Reed

Ben Peppers?

Kris Clack

Kris Joseph

Luke Harangody

Lester Hudson

Gabe Pruitt

Steve Hamer

Andrei Fetisov

[OhioGreen]

I have to admit that I really thought Bill Walker was going to be a good player. 

The rest you mentioned didn't ever show me anything, and I never liked Harangody in college as far as pro potential.

Of this year's rookies the one I was most excited about was Hunter, who hasn't looked like much lately...not that he is getting any run.

RJ hasn't looked like much lately?  He's played less than 9 minutes since Jan 7!  Where have you seen him play where he looked bad?

I think you are mostly right.

AB only got a chance because of injury, but then when he got his shot he forced Doc to give him a role.

Young and Hunter have gotten their shot and failed to force Brad into giving them minutes.

It looks like Mickey is going to get his shot here. Lets see if he can force his way into minutes.

I agree mostly on JY.  Just don't think he'll ever amount to much.  RJ, however, played quite well when he was given extended minutes, but once everyone was healthly Brad just let him fall off the face of the earth!  Not because of his play---he just stopped using him to play veterans.
We'll see about JMickey, but I seriously doubt he'll get any run at all, though he did get 3 minutes last night to lead them to a comback win by scoring 20, with 15 boards and 6 blocks!
If you refuse to play the young players, that's fine, but with what end game?  A first round exit in the playoffs?  How are these, potentially very good players supposed to develope?  If the time comes when they MUST contribute it's very doubtful they'll be able to because of their lack of playing time and experience.
Pops teams always has their second and third line players ready to perform, cause he plays those guys at the end of the bench early and often!  It's why he's the best coach, by far, in the league.

[Roy H.]

I didn't think Ryan Gomes got a fair shot initially.  He basically wasn't getting minutes through February.  Doc had to be forced into playing him, at which point he showed he could really handle his role.

I think we should have force fed Gerald more minutes.  It's hard, because he was a lazy moron, but on a team going nowhere I would have liked to see more than 11 minutes per game.

J.R. Giddens was drafted because his defense was allegedly NBA ready.  He then got 8 minutes his entire rookie year.  Maybe in a different situation his career would have looked different.

[Ilikesports17]

I agree mostly on JY.  Just don't think he'll ever amount to much.  RJ, however, played quite well when he was given extended minutes, but once everyone was healthly Brad just let him fall off the face of the earth!  Not because of his play---he just stopped using him to play veterans.

I think both Young and Hunter played OK in their minutes and both saw those minutes go away when Smart and AB returned to full health. The thing is neither played well enough to force Brad to keep them in the rotation when everyone got healthy. Im sure both players will get a few more chances (especially Hunter I suppose Young could be down to his last few chances) but the bottom line is that while they may have proven to Brad that they can contribute to a team, they did not prove to Brad that the team needs them in the rotation.

Pops teams always has their second and third line players ready to perform, cause he plays those guys at the end of the bench early and often!  It's why he's the best coach, by far, in the league.

Pops has the luxury of coaching a team where, he can go the whole season without worrying about playoff seeding. He has a veteran team that he knows he can play guys who dont belong in a rotation fairly regularly and still ride Timmy Parker Kawhi Aldridge Manu etc to 50+ wins a year.

[PhoSita]

This is always a difficult chicken and egg thing because it's hard to assess, without seeing these guys in practice or knowing their habits as professionals, teammates, or people, how they might have progressed if they'd been given more of an opportunity to play significant minutes -- at least now and then -- as opposed to spending their formative years in the league riding the bench.


I tend to think that you can't really know what you have in a young player if you never put him in a "sink or swim" situation at least once in a while.  It is true, though, that some guys come into the league and they're really too raw to do well with that type of opportunity.

I really don't see the point, however, of drafting guys who spent 2, 3, or even 4 years in college and then sticking their butts on the bench.  Either they have some NBA level skills or they don't.

When the Celts were legitimately contending, I could understand the rationale of letting player development take a backseat.  We were playing for home court back then.  The main guys got older, and then depth became an issue, and still integrating younger players didn't seem like a priority, which was frustrating.  To Doc's credit, he worked in some guys like Glen Davis, Avery Bradley, and Jared Sullinger.

Where the team is at now, it frustrates me to see draft picks spending their first year or two pretty much just riding the bench and killing scrubs in the D-League.  It's nice that the team is competing for the playoffs this early in the rebuild, but we're not winning anything of significance this season, and a lot of the guys helping the team win right now aren't going to be here in a few years when the team hopefully has the main pieces in place to actually make some noise.  I just don't know what we're doing collecting all of these draft assets if the guys we draft are gonna end up on the bench. 

[OhioGreen]

It's the worst thing about good draft picks going to decent teams--they don't get the chance to play in alot of cases!  The same players going to a bottom ten team would be seeing major minutes, and in a year or two you know if they're gonna be 11/12 man types, completely out of the league, or a starter on a team competing for a title(not our situation for sure).  Here we are three quarters thru the season and we don't have a clue how are rooks will turn out.  I find it sad that we put a likely first round exit from the playoffs before possibly finding building blocks for our future.

[feckless]

I have always thought that Jim O'Brien misused Kedrick Brown but Kedrick had ample opportunity after the C's and never developed.  Had he been brought along fundamentally & properly, early on, who knows