Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?

[RockinRyA]

This is always a difficult chicken and egg thing because it's hard to assess, without seeing these guys in practice or knowing their habits as professionals, teammates, or people, how they might have progressed if they'd been given more of an opportunity to play significant minutes -- at least now and then -- as opposed to spending their formative years in the league riding the bench.


I tend to think that you can't really know what you have in a young player if you never put him in a "sink or swim" situation at least once in a while.  It is true, though, that some guys come into the league and they're really too raw to do well with that type of opportunity.

I really don't see the point, however, of drafting guys who spent 2, 3, or even 4 years in college and then sticking their butts on the bench.  Either they have some NBA level skills or they don't.

When the Celts were legitimately contending, I could understand the rationale of letting player development take a backseat.  We were playing for home court back then.  The main guys got older, and then depth became an issue, and still integrating younger players didn't seem like a priority, which was frustrating.  To Doc's credit, he worked in some guys like Glen Davis, Avery Bradley, and Jared Sullinger.

Where the team is at now, it frustrates me to see draft picks spending their first year or two pretty much just riding the bench and killing scrubs in the D-League.  It's nice that the team is competing for the playoffs this early in the rebuild, but we're not winning anything of significance this season, and a lot of the guys helping the team win right now aren't going to be here in a few years when the team hopefully has the main pieces in place to actually make some noise.  I just don't know what we're doing collecting all of these draft assets if the guys we draft are gonna end up on the bench.

Its hard to play a lot of rookies when you are competing for a playoff seeding, esp when the rookies you have are raw and you are deep. Also I believe this strat worked for Bradley.

[LHR]

Even under Doc, I thought the Celts have been fair with young players. There have been no Jermaine O'Neal-in-Portland instances with the Celtics.  Every young player has gotten a fair shot in one way or another and I like how Doc/Stevens have made young players earn their time.

Mickey is being brought along slowly.  He is a great unknown and seemingly provides things that the Celtics don't have (shotblocking) - so naturally fans are clamoring for him.

It's very Boston-fan to think that the unproven young guy is going to come in here and save the day.  It's good that he's been brought along slowly, as stated, but here's the kicker - the Celtics may need this guy sooner rather than later.  Stevens would be smart to sneak in 4-10 minutes a game with this guy in the coming days because if Sullinger gets hurt (likely), he's going to be forced into action with Olynyk already out.

[IDreamCeltics]

This came up in another thread  about Jordan Mickey where some posters were comparing Brad Stevens to Doc Rivers in terms of his perceived lack of desire to play youngsters over vets.  But as far as I can remember, this has never been true of Doc, Brad, or any Celtic coach of my memory dating back to the late '80s. 

What I do remember is fans pining for the likes of Bill Walker, J.R. Giddens, Luke Harangody, Justin Greene, and Kedrick Brown to get court time that they very clearly never deserved. 

I also remember Doc playing youngsters that deserved to play including Big Baby Davis, Leon Powe, Tony Allen, and Avery Bradley, who we shouldn't forget that Doc kept in the starting lineup at the age of 21 even when Ray Allen came back from injury. 

And the same is true for Stevens.  He didn't hesitate to put Marcus Smart in big positions his rookie year and last, just as he hasn't hesitated to give Kelly Olynyk and Jared Sullinger minutes over vets. 

I think if there's any argument to be made, it's that fans have had unrealistic expectations for youngsters over the course of the past decade plus. 

My point here isn't to take a shot at Jordan Mickey.  I like him and think he'll eventually be a nice player.  What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it.

I remember Doc playing this kid named Rondo who turned out to be ok.

[Csfan1984]

I think it's all about development. All rookies are going to struggle not just C's players. The coaches around the league have to develop the players but more importantly they need to win to keep their jobs. So we cant put everything on the coaches. The NBA is rough and 60% of the rookies won't make it to second contracts. I think a lot falls onto the players. They need to go the extra mile and train hard both mentally and physically. My advice/opinion learn technique and sharpen their game. Know the team plays and know your opponents plays. TALK. Communication gets you knowledge and understanding. When you talk basketball you do so all day soaking up tips and good habits. Show the coaches you are mentally ready by those talks. Beat everyone, be competitive in everything. Go harder, longer and smarter in every drill and practice. Show the coaches you are physically ready. Then you likely get your shot. With your shot strive to dominate and challenge your opponent within the team system. Hit the open shot, cut hard, set the proper screen on offense. Stay in front, don't foul, back up your teammates on D. Again keep talking on and off the court. Funny thing is, it's still just basketball but at the NBA level every one is good and only the strongest willed have careers. You have to want to work at it and you have to prove your game is great.

[Chief]

This came up in another thread  about Jordan Mickey where some posters were comparing Brad Stevens to Doc Rivers in terms of his perceived lack of desire to play youngsters over vets.  But as far as I can remember, this has never been true of Doc, Brad, or any Celtic coach of my memory dating back to the late '80s. 

What I do remember is fans pining for the likes of Bill Walker, J.R. Giddens, Luke Harangody, Justin Greene, and Kedrick Brown to get court time that they very clearly never deserved. 

I also remember Doc playing youngsters that deserved to play including Big Baby Davis, Leon Powe, Tony Allen, and Avery Bradley, who we shouldn't forget that Doc kept in the starting lineup at the age of 21 even when Ray Allen came back from injury. 

And the same is true for Stevens.  He didn't hesitate to put Marcus Smart in big positions his rookie year and last, just as he hasn't hesitated to give Kelly Olynyk and Jared Sullinger minutes over vets. 

I think if there's any argument to be made, it's that fans have had unrealistic expectations for youngsters over the course of the past decade plus. 

My point here isn't to take a shot at Jordan Mickey.  I like him and think he'll eventually be a nice player.  What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it.

I remember Doc playing this kid named Rondo who turned out to be ok.

Rondo was drafted in 2006. Any non lottery since?

[billysan]

These guys that arent playing in regular season games have all been playing plenty in practice. I have to believe the coaches are basing what they do(as far as playing time) on performance in team practice and scrimmage. If a player is missing assignments and cant make shots in practice, how much run is a coach supposed to give them in games?

We will never know how well or how badly most of these guys do in practice. It just isnt public information, but that is where the decisions are made for the most part IMO.

I really hope the kid, Jordan Mickey, gets some PT soon. He looks like a player based on D league performance.

[GreenWarrior]

Justin Reed

Ben Peppers?

Kris Clack

Kris Joseph

Luke Harangody

Lester Hudson

Gabe Pruitt

Steve Hamer

Andrei Fetisov

not really sure of the point, but one thing all those guys have in common is they didn't last very long and most of 'em got plenty of chances.

as bad as Doc was maybe he saw a lot more than we saw.

[Jon]

Chauncey Billups.  Thank you Rick Pitino.

Yup, he's the one that came to my mind too.

Billups doesn't really fit what I'm talking about. Rick Pitino the GM traded him too early, but Rick Pitino the coach did play him and even when he left it took him years to develop.

As far as everyone else's points, I'd agree with Pho that it is hard to tell given how little we know. But that was also somewhat my point: it's pretty much unwarranted to say that Doc or Stevens has an agenda against rookies, especially when we have no idea how any of these guys will turn out. As another poster alluded to, we have never had a Jermaine O'Neal in Portland situation. Most of the time it's been fans overvaluing late first round/second round picks.

[Vermont Green]

I don't think the issue is a coaching issue or a team program issue, be it Doc Rivers' or Brad Stevens' program.  The problem is that most of the rookies are 18 or 19 years old and have only played 30 or so games in college (usually less due to injuries).  That is a huge gap to bridge to go from a very good freshman college player to good enough to contribute to an NBA team while you are developing as a person and a player.

Sure, the Magic Johnsons and Lebron James's of the world are able to do it but the vast majority are going to have a hard time "developing" within the NBA system.  Tim Duncan played 4 years at Wake Forest but now we expect say Jahill Okafor be ready to play as a rookie?  Is it better to play on a bad team and develop bad habits or to sit on the bench and shuttle back and forth to the NBDL?  Neither is a very good plan.

The Celtics of the Doc era and current era cannot afford to put a 19 year old player on the court to learn on the job.  They have to try and develop them in practices (which once the season starts doesn't give much opportunity) or in the NBDL.  The NBDL is still a very valuable roster spot though.  This all is not any coach's fault or more generally the individual team's fault.

[chilidawg]

I don't think the issue is a coaching issue or a team program issue, be it Doc Rivers' or Brad Stevens' program.  The problem is that most of the rookies are 18 or 19 years old and have only played 30 or so games in college (usually less due to injuries).  That is a huge gap to bridge to go from a very good freshman college player to good enough to contribute to an NBA team while you are developing as a person and a player.

True for Young, but not really for Mickey, Hunter and Rozier.  Problem is we're deep with other still relatively young guys who still need to develop as well.  With Mickey in particular I thought it made sense to get him a lot of game time in Maine, with maybe a mid season callup if he was ready.  Injury set that back a little, but I still think we'll see him start to contribute down the stretch.

[Celtics4ever]

 We should check some of these guys in blowouts, try to win the close games with our regular guys.

I will tell you two Celtics that never got a chance here, Billups and Joe Johnson, both during the Craptino era.

[mctyson]

I think if there's any argument to be made, it's that fans have had unrealistic expectations for youngsters over the course of the past decade plus. 

My point here isn't to take a shot at Jordan Mickey.  I like him and think he'll eventually be a nice player.  What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it.

We deal with this every day on this blog.

First off - it is complete nonsense that any coach (especially Brad Stevens) would refuse to play a player that could help his team win, just because said player is a rookie.  If you have game, you have game.  Owners know this, GMs know this, fans know this, and most of all coaches know this.

Second - there is still a large body of C's fans that are closet tankers.  Always remember that when reading any post on this blog.

Third and final point - young players grow by earning playing time, not just having it handed to them for the sake of exposure.  Jordan Mickey HAS NOT EARNED ANY PLAYING TIME.

[saltlover]

I always felt E'Taun Moore deserved more of a chance his one year here.  He was a four-year player in college, it was the strike-shortened year with players needing more rest, and we suffered a number of injuries in our backcourt.  He's been an end-of-the-rotation guard every year since -- nothing special, but he could have absorbed a few more minutes that season when everyone else was being run into the ground.

[Jon]

I always felt E'Taun Moore deserved more of a chance his one year here.  He was a four-year player in college, it was the strike-shortened year with players needing more rest, and we suffered a number of injuries in our backcourt.  He's been an end-of-the-rotation guard every year since -- nothing special, but he could have absorbed a few more minutes that season when everyone else was being run into the ground.

I'm not saying some stories like that aren't true.  I'm just saying that there were "Free E'Twaun Moore" posts on this board attacking Doc for not giving this kid a chance.  And while he's proven to be an NBA player, this wasn't a case of Jermaine O'Neal rotting away on Portland's bench for years. 

[Vermont Green]

I don't think the issue is a coaching issue or a team program issue, be it Doc Rivers' or Brad Stevens' program.  The problem is that most of the rookies are 18 or 19 years old and have only played 30 or so games in college (usually less due to injuries).  That is a huge gap to bridge to go from a very good freshman college player to good enough to contribute to an NBA team while you are developing as a person and a player.

True for Young, but not really for Mickey, Hunter and Rozier.  Problem is we're deep with other still relatively young guys who still need to develop as well.  With Mickey in particular I thought it made sense to get him a lot of game time in Maine, with maybe a mid season callup if he was ready.  Injury set that back a little, but I still think we'll see him start to contribute down the stretch.

Rozier played 73 games at Louisville (27 mpg).  That is way better than 30.  Rozier seems physically and emotionally much more NBA ready than many rookies.

Hunter played 99 games at Georgia Southern and is 22 years old.  I don't think maturity will be his issue.  He simply may not have NBA level athleticism.

My point though is that whether Rozier or Hunter "develop" isn't something that will come down to Brad Stevens.  If they show they can play, be it at practice, in Portland, or in NBA games, they will get a chance to play either here (if there is a place for them) or elsewhere.

The problem though is that some players who are drafted at 18 or 19 may not be physically or emotionally able to show they can play in the NBA for 3 or 4 seasons (in some cases even more) but at that point, may be legit NBA players.  The problem for teams is what to do with those players for those 3 or 4 seasons where in the old days, they would be playing in college.