Author Topic: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?  (Read 6362 times)

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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2016, 03:13:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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At the same time, player development has got to be at least one of the primary goals here, if not the primary goal.  That means the younger guys need to be given a chance sometime.  Even the Spurs do that.
I don't think you can make this statement without conceding that it will cost a team some amount of wins (since you are saying winning is not the primary goal).  Relative to this team, this season, how many wins are you willing to give up in exchange for your alternate primary goal of developing players?

I honestly don't care about how many games the team wins this season.  I care about identifying who can and cannot play and be a part of the next great Celtics team.  This team is nice, but it's not there yet.


It's desperately needed.  I'm of the opinion that NBA teams should be about attempting to win games.  They shouldn't be development programs.

Please hurry up and expand the D League to a full thirty teams!!

I agree with you -- in an ideal world, the D-League would be a proper minor league system and meaningful development could occur even for talented players who have spent some time in college.

That said, even in baseball, which has a great minor league system, teams often have to give younger players a run in the big leagues before they really know if those guy can actually carry a full-time load in the MLB.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 03:19:07 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2016, 03:21:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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It's a tough issue.  The impetus for my OP was really just out of frustration for the decade plus of people bemoaning the lack of PT for youngsters who generally ended up being mediocre to poor NBA players. 

I understand what you mean.   My point is just that you can't know how those players you mention, who "ended up being mediocre to poor," would have turned out if they'd had a different experience in their first few years in the league.  I don't know either.  They might have been identified as busts even sooner if they'd gotten regular playing time.
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2016, 03:35:36 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I happen to think that treating every win as precious is an important part of development.  More important, in my opinion (and presumably Stevens' as well), than giving out minutes that players aren't really ready for.

Brad Stevens is supposedly all about the process.  Integrating young players and allowing them to learn from making mistakes in minutes that matter is presumably part of the process of building a roster that has the depth and experience to contend for a championship.

Putting young guys out there for 10-20 minutes sometimes doesn't mean you're deciding you don't want to win the game.  It just means you're not going all-out to win every single regular season game.

Obviously this is a calculus Brad -- and many other coaches -- are willing to consider, otherwise we'd see every coach pulling a Thibs and playing their best guys 38-40 minutes a game.

No, you have to look at what is good for the season as a whole.  Coach Stevens has decided on a 9 to 10 man rotation that he likes.  That team has been playing well.  Giving sporadic minutes to young guys not in the rotation would mean benching or reducing the minutes of someone in the rotation.  I'm not sure that would be good for the chemistry or the rhythm of the team.

We are not the Spurs.  I wish we had the personnel, the culture, the know-how of winning that the Spurs have.  They can "rest" Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, or Tony Parker without repercussions.  Our Celtics don't have that luxury.
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C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2016, 03:43:02 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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I happen to think that treating every win as precious is an important part of development.  More important, in my opinion (and presumably Stevens' as well), than giving out minutes that players aren't really ready for.

Brad Stevens is supposedly all about the process.  Integrating young players and allowing them to learn from making mistakes in minutes that matter is presumably part of the process of building a roster that has the depth and experience to contend for a championship.

Putting young guys out there for 10-20 minutes sometimes doesn't mean you're deciding you don't want to win the game.  It just means you're not going all-out to win every single regular season game.

Obviously this is a calculus Brad -- and many other coaches -- are willing to consider, otherwise we'd see every coach pulling a Thibs and playing their best guys 38-40 minutes a game.

No, you have to look at what is good for the season as a whole.  Coach Stevens has decided on a 9 to 10 man rotation that he likes.  That team has been playing well.  Giving sporadic minutes to young guys not in the rotation would mean benching or reducing the minutes of someone in the rotation.  I'm not sure that would be good for the chemistry or the rhythm of the team.

We are not the Spurs.  I wish we had the personnel, the culture, the know-how of winning that the Spurs have.  They can "rest" Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, or Tony Parker without repercussions.  Our Celtics don't have that luxury.

I agree with you overall Celtics, big believer in a 9-10 man rotation.  However, I don't think Stevens is without faults there and some towards young players.  For me, it's more he has had times where he is playing veterans over young players in a minutes balance I find way off, given the productivity of the young players and their need to play to develop.  Olynyk in particular I think he often slights and it was painful seeing Lee play over him at times this year.   For Stevens, he has had to work down to a 9-10 man rotation and it took him too long to do so, I think.  It's something I am much happier with since the Memphis game with that awful Lee showing but that seems to have been Stevens giving Lee one last shot.   Something I hardly think he earned but whatever.

I don't think he should be playing Young or Hunter or anything.  However, I agree with that "play young guys so they can develop" sentiment PhoSita has with the young players we have that deserved it.

So as far as the thread idea, I agree there aren't really Celtics that deserved to play and didn't at all, but I haven't loved how Stevens or Doc before him handled the playing time for some of our young players who could use minutes, that they were earning, to get better and develop.  Right now I am pretty happy with things though.  I would like to see Olynyk get consistent 25+ mpg and Smart handle the ball more but otherwise I really like Stevens.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 03:49:04 PM by Snakehead »
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2016, 03:49:33 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I'm intrigued by Jordan Mickey.  With Olynyk's injury, (coupled with some sub-par play of late by Amir Johnson) I definitely wouldn't mind seeing our rookie big get some minutes in the coming weeks.

If he doesn't get those minutes, I'll be disappointed, but I'll continue to trust that Brad Stevens knows more about what's best for the Boston Celtics than I do.
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2016, 04:36:56 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it.
There are no players that left the Celtics and overperformed, but there are plenty of players who left the Celtics and then never played up to the level of production we got from them. Draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2016, 04:40:54 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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What I'm instead asking is whether anyone can make a convincing argument to me that Doc or CBS has ever stifled the growth of youngsters like some fans contend.  Is there such an argument?  If so, let me hear it.
There are no players that left the Celtics and overperformed, but there are plenty of players who left the Celtics and then never played up to the level of production we got from them. Draw your own conclusions.
etuan moore kinda outperformed expectations.

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2016, 06:13:09 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't really have a big problem with the way Doc handled things with young players.  I know others have a really hate for it, but I think his decisions were always perfectly justified.

Firstly, we need to remember that when Doc was in Boston, we were contenders almost the entire time.  How often do you see the coach of a contending team putting excessive amounts of trust into unproven prospects?  Honestly, it's pretty rare.

Secondly, we need to consider the type of young talent Doc had to work with.  We were a contender for years, so we rarely ever had cap space and our draft selections were generally always in the late first round / early second round.  Finding talent in those sections of the draft is like finding a needle in a haystack. So much of the young guys we got simply weren't that talented.

Finally, when Doc did get young guys with talent, he tended to give them a chance. 

* Rondo was our starting PG in our championship year, as only a second year player. 

* Perk was also only in the league a couple of years, yet started at center for us in 08. 

* Tony Allen got some legit playing time for us during those years - he didn't start because his game at that time was too limited, but as he earned his time he got it. 

* Avery Bradley was made a starter in only his second or third season, in place of veteran star Ray Allen

* Big Baby got a very big role for us early in his career.

* Etwaan Moore got consistent rotation minutes as a rookie. 

* Semih Erden got for more playing opportunities under Doc than Mickey/Rozier/Hunter have this year. 

* Sully was given a solid rotation role as a rookie right from the get go

People criticised Doc all the time for not giving young guys a chance, which I never understood given the fact that we had two young and inexperienced players starting on our 2008 championship team.

Doc was perfectly happy to give playing time to young guys, but only did so if those guys could earn it and prove they were worthy of those minutes.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

The guys he didn't give minutes too, it was usually because they just weren't that good at the time.  Or because there were other players on the team who were simply a lot better.

I did get frustrated sometimes with Doc because I felt he has TOO MUCH loyalty for the vets, and he'd sometimes keep them in for long stretches even when they were hurting us with poor play.  But I can understand that given those guys were former stars and proven guys, and you generally always knew what you would get from them. 

But I Brad does that too and that frustrates me even more sometimes because he does it with guys who haven't really proven themselves that much (e.g. Sully).  I like 90% of what Brad does, but he lets Sully get away with far too much hero ball out there sometimes, when I feel he really needs to blow the whistle and bench him to teach him a lesson.

I do agree with some people above that I feel Olynyk should get more minutes.  I'm think he's too foul prone still to get up in the 30+ minute range, but I feel that he should be getting around 25 - 28 minutes a night consistently.  When he's on the court good things almost always happen, and I felt like we really missed his presence yesterday against the Jazz. 

But i do get that Brad has a lot of guys on that roster, and he has to try to manage expectations, give everybody a chance, etc.  We have a lot of guys expiring after this year, and I feel that Danny and Brad are doing to get together and do a lot of talking about which guys have produced the most when given the opportunity, which guys fit the team best moving forward, who to try to retain, who to let walk, etc.  I feel like we will come back next year with a trimmed down roster, and with everybody in a more clear role.  I think that will allow Brad to establish more clear and meaningful rotations.

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2016, 06:17:57 PM »

Offline cltc5

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Yea we'll have the current rotation and a bench full of top draft picks that never play.  It's annoying.  I'd like to see some mixing once in awhile.  If this is the formula moving forward there's no way we'll get a superstar here if he has to constantly be pulled in and out of the rotation.

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2016, 07:48:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Yea we'll have the current rotation and a bench full of top draft picks that never play.  It's annoying.  I'd like to see some mixing once in awhile.  If this is the formula moving forward there's no way we'll get a superstar here if he has to constantly be pulled in and out of the rotation.

Trust me, if we get a guy in the draft who has superstar potential, he will get immediate playing time.

Sully and Kelly both got rotation minutes pretty much from day one, and neither had superstar potential. 

But when our team is playing as well as they are now, Brad isn't going to risk that progress by throwing in unproven youngsters in the rotation.  Once they have earned earned enough respect in practice to earn spot minutes, and then earned enough respect in spot minutes to earn rotation minutes, then you'll see our current youngsters start to get some more consistent playing time.

I really liked what I saw from Rozier and Mickey when they came in at the end of the Jazz game.  They seem to have developed some really nice chemistry together in the D-League which I think will be invaluable.  Rozier looked much more natural handling the ball and setting up plays, and Mickey (as always) looked like he had no problems finishing against NBA players.  I think those two guys have some real potential, and I wouldn't be surprised if they both earn rotation minutes next year.   

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2016, 07:57:38 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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The problem wasn't that Doc wouldn't play young guys, it was that Ainge was willing to fill out the bench with faded minimum-salary veterans like Doc seemed to prefer rather than unproven talent that would give Doc no choice but to use what was there.  Ainge did seem to manipulate the roster so that Doc would have no choice but to start Rondo after Garnett was acquired, but perhaps he felt that not giving Doc some veterans on the bench would lead to overuse of the Big Three.

I don't blame Stevens for running David Lee out there for a while.  The team had to learn what Golden State figured out, that a big man scorer who doesn't stretch the floor or protect the rim is not what the Celtics need for their style of play.
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2016, 08:55:22 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Giving sporadic minutes to young guys not in the rotation would mean benching or reducing the minutes of someone in the rotation.  I'm not sure that would be good for the chemistry or the rhythm of the team.

...

Our Celtics don't have that luxury.

I don't agree. 
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Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2016, 09:03:24 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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At the same time, player development has got to be at least one of the primary goals here, if not the primary goal.  That means the younger guys need to be given a chance sometime.  Even the Spurs do that.
I don't think you can make this statement without conceding that it will cost a team some amount of wins (since you are saying winning is not the primary goal).  Relative to this team, this season, how many wins are you willing to give up in exchange for your alternate primary goal of developing players?

I honestly don't care about how many games the team wins this season.  I care about identifying who can and cannot play and be a part of the next great Celtics team.  This team is nice, but it's not there yet.

I think you said it all right there.  If you don't care how many games your team wins in a given season, then you don't bring in any Amir Johnsons and Evan Turners and you play your young players.  In the case of this Celtics team, there aren't many players that aren't "young".  Sullinger and Olynyk are developing as much as Jordan Mickey is but you could argue, if you don't care about wins, that Mickey should be playing over Johnson and Young over Turner for example.

I don't think the organization sees it this way (not caring about wins this season) and to me, I would disagree with this if they did stop caring about wins.  You have to play to win or you are the Sixers.  There isn't much middle ground.


Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2016, 09:05:52 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The problem wasn't that Doc wouldn't play young guys, it was that Ainge was willing to fill out the bench with faded minimum-salary veterans like Doc seemed to prefer rather than unproven talent that would give Doc no choice but to use what was there.  Ainge did seem to manipulate the roster so that Doc would have no choice but to start Rondo after Garnett was acquired, but perhaps he felt that not giving Doc some veterans on the bench would lead to overuse of the Big Three.

I don't blame Stevens for running David Lee out there for a while.  The team had to learn what Golden State figured out, that a big man scorer who doesn't stretch the floor or protect the rim is not what the Celtics need for their style of play.

I don't think you can blame Ainge for that at all.

We were a perennial contender year after year, and we had VERY limited cap space. 

Young guys with proven talent are a valuable commodity that we couldn't afford at the time, and young guys who are unproven present a significant risk that you don't typically want to take when you only have a or 3 year window at competing for a title.

Ainge tried to get guys who were proven contributes, and with the budget limitations we had that left him with no real choice but to go for veteran guys who were a little over the hill.

Re: Has Any Young Celtic Ever Really Not Had a Chance?
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2016, 09:39:31 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Giving sporadic minutes to young guys not in the rotation would mean benching or reducing the minutes of someone in the rotation.  I'm not sure that would be good for the chemistry or the rhythm of the team.

...

Our Celtics don't have that luxury.

I don't agree.

I'm not sure how you can watch this much basketball and not see the importance of a reasonable and rather set rotation.  The exact difference between both sides played out for the Celtics this year and the team got a lot better once Stevens tightened up the rotation.

Again, I have issues with some minutes distribution but I think you arguing with that basic point is against all coaching logic we continue to see in the league.  The only exceptions are maybe teams like the Spurs that have veterans who take games off.
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