Woj: No one wants Love more than Ainge

[LGC88]

Isn't it crazy that a year ago it'd be ridiculous to think that Crowder would net Love in a trade. Now I'm almost not sure I'd want to give Crowder up for him... Crowder is tough and he's a winner, Love isn't. Crowder has become the backbone of this team

It's truly nuts. Crowder was almost a non-entity, decent filler, an afterthought in a generally disappointing Rondo trade. Love was worth the #1 overall pick. How the lowly have risen, how the mighty have stumbled down.

Crowder really is the backbone now. Barring the acquisition of a first-tier go-to superstar, the way these Celtics are going to become a contender is through a defensive identity that unexpectedly disrupts the offensive identity of the Warriors, Spurs, and/or Cavs. Defense equalizes. It's futile to try to out-offense that kind of offensive firepower.

The Celtics have a team defense that's nearly good enough on its own already to stay in games with the league's elite. Any move where defense is sacrificed for offense is going to be lateral, no matter how good the offense.

Love as an overall asset is worth more than Crowder in a vacuum, yes. But sacrificing Crowder's defense to get Love would, for this particular team, be taking one step forward and one step back. If there weren't a surplus of picks then it might be different, C's might be forced to give up a core player to gamble on getting extra production. But the picks let Ainge wait for the ideal opportunity of using just picks + filler inserting a star into a fully-formed supporting cast, preferably a defensive star, which Love is not. Love would obviously help turn the C's from bad to good on the glass. But the other team has to miss the shots first. Love is a negative there, he needs a player like Crowder next to him, plus a center to protect the rim. Crowder for Love, one year later, is not worth it, will backfire.

If the Cavs would take Sullinger, plus the best non-Brooklyn picks, plus filler, then great. But they won't. If Ainge can find a three-team situation, great. Otherwise just wait to cash in a combination of lower-impact assets and non-core players to get a defense-minded big who can rebound about as well as Love. A rental of Whiteside for relative scraps, a better package of assets for a long-term answer with upside like Noel, something like that. Or cash in the very best assets for a legit superstar-caliber two-way player like Cousins. Love just isn't good enough now to give up that kind of max trade offer, not good enough overall. C's just can't afford to be any kind of team that doesn't compete to be the best in the league on defense. Crowder for Love, let alone adding picks, Bradley, etc. would a case of winner's curse we'd regret for years.

TP
I'm glad there are still people who keep it real.
Well done!

[mctyson]

Isn't it crazy that a year ago it'd be ridiculous to think that Crowder would net Love in a trade. Now I'm almost not sure I'd want to give Crowder up for him... Crowder is tough and he's a winner, Love isn't. Crowder has become the backbone of this team

It's truly nuts. Crowder was almost a non-entity, decent filler, an afterthought in a generally disappointing Rondo trade. Love was worth the #1 overall pick. How the lowly have risen, how the mighty have stumbled down.

Crowder really is the backbone now. Barring the acquisition of a first-tier go-to superstar, the way these Celtics are going to become a contender is through a defensive identity that unexpectedly disrupts the offensive identity of the Warriors, Spurs, and/or Cavs. Defense equalizes. It's futile to try to out-offense that kind of offensive firepower.

The Celtics have a team defense that's nearly good enough on its own already to stay in games with the league's elite. Any move where defense is sacrificed for offense is going to be lateral, no matter how good the offense.

Love as an overall asset is worth more than Crowder in a vacuum, yes. But sacrificing Crowder's defense to get Love would, for this particular team, be taking one step forward and one step back. If there weren't a surplus of picks then it might be different, C's might be forced to give up a core player to gamble on getting extra production. But the picks let Ainge wait for the ideal opportunity of using just picks + filler inserting a star into a fully-formed supporting cast, preferably a defensive star, which Love is not. Love would obviously help turn the C's from bad to good on the glass. But the other team has to miss the shots first. Love is a negative there, he needs a player like Crowder next to him, plus a center to protect the rim. Crowder for Love, one year later, is not worth it, will backfire.

If the Cavs would take Sullinger, plus the best non-Brooklyn picks, plus filler, then great. But they won't. If Ainge can find a three-team situation, great. Otherwise just wait to cash in a combination of lower-impact assets and non-core players to get a defense-minded big who can rebound about as well as Love. A rental of Whiteside for relative scraps, a better package of assets for a long-term answer with upside like Noel, something like that. Or cash in the very best assets for a legit superstar-caliber two-way player like Cousins. Love just isn't good enough now to give up that kind of max trade offer, not good enough overall. C's just can't afford to be any kind of team that doesn't compete to be the best in the league on defense. Crowder for Love, let alone adding picks, Bradley, etc. would a case of winner's curse we'd regret for years.

TP
I'm glad there are still people who keep it real.
Well done!

Completely agree, except on the point that Crowder was "filler" in the Rondo trade.  There is no doubt in my mind that Danny and probably Stevens targeted him in the trade.  If anything, the draft pick was the filler.

[Clench123]

Isn't it crazy that a year ago it'd be ridiculous to think that Crowder would net Love in a trade. Now I'm almost not sure I'd want to give Crowder up for him... Crowder is tough and he's a winner, Love isn't. Crowder has become the backbone of this team

It's truly nuts. Crowder was almost a non-entity, decent filler, an afterthought in a generally disappointing Rondo trade. Love was worth the #1 overall pick. How the lowly have risen, how the mighty have stumbled down.

Crowder really is the backbone now. Barring the acquisition of a first-tier go-to superstar, the way these Celtics are going to become a contender is through a defensive identity that unexpectedly disrupts the offensive identity of the Warriors, Spurs, and/or Cavs. Defense equalizes. It's futile to try to out-offense that kind of offensive firepower.

The Celtics have a team defense that's nearly good enough on its own already to stay in games with the league's elite. Any move where defense is sacrificed for offense is going to be lateral, no matter how good the offense.

Love as an overall asset is worth more than Crowder in a vacuum, yes. But sacrificing Crowder's defense to get Love would, for this particular team, be taking one step forward and one step back. If there weren't a surplus of picks then it might be different, C's might be forced to give up a core player to gamble on getting extra production. But the picks let Ainge wait for the ideal opportunity of using just picks + filler inserting a star into a fully-formed supporting cast, preferably a defensive star, which Love is not. Love would obviously help turn the C's from bad to good on the glass. But the other team has to miss the shots first. Love is a negative there, he needs a player like Crowder next to him, plus a center to protect the rim. Crowder for Love, one year later, is not worth it, will backfire.

If the Cavs would take Sullinger, plus the best non-Brooklyn picks, plus filler, then great. But they won't. If Ainge can find a three-team situation, great. Otherwise just wait to cash in a combination of lower-impact assets and non-core players to get a defense-minded big who can rebound about as well as Love. A rental of Whiteside for relative scraps, a better package of assets for a long-term answer with upside like Noel, something like that. Or cash in the very best assets for a legit superstar-caliber two-way player like Cousins. Love just isn't good enough now to give up that kind of max trade offer, not good enough overall. C's just can't afford to be any kind of team that doesn't compete to be the best in the league on defense. Crowder for Love, let alone adding picks, Bradley, etc. would a case of winner's curse we'd regret for years.

You said everything I wanted to say.  Great post.  I wouldn't trade Crowder.  You don't trade a player like Crowder.

[djbilly33]

Here's one, Cleveland isn't trade Love.

[TA9]

If that's so then why didn't Ainge make an effort to sign him last off season instead of going for Amir Johnson. Hmm

[obnoxiousmime]

I know this sucks to think about, but wouldn't it have been a lot easier to let go of Crowder if we had Justise Winslow?

I'll shut up now.....

[Kuberski33]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

[Chief Macho]

Barf.  Love's a loser. 

[slamtheking]

I know this sucks to think about, but wouldn't it have been a lot easier to let go of Crowder if we had Justise Winslow?

I'll shut up now.....

it probably wouldn't since Winslow has not looked as good as the hype and Crowder's having a really good year.  not saying Winslow can't get to where Crowder is this season but he's not looking like a player the C's could have just swapped into the line-up and gotten the same results.

[obnoxiousmime]

I know this sucks to think about, but wouldn't it have been a lot easier to let go of Crowder if we had Justise Winslow?

I'll shut up now.....

it probably wouldn't since Winslow has not looked as good as the hype and Crowder's having a really good year.  not saying Winslow can't get to where Crowder is this season but he's not looking like a player the C's could have just swapped into the line-up and gotten the same results.

I never said Winslow could get the same results. He is a presumptive, defensive-minded F starter in this league however, as opposed to the other forwards we have on the roster. It would be easier to let go of Crowder if we had a replacement, even one who wouldn't necessarily be as good this year. That's all I was saying.

[ssspence]

If the Cavs do decide to trade Love, I think they'll struggle to get value for him. There's just not enough teams where the risk of putting real assets towards a deal outweighs the upgrade he's going to provide.

[SHAQATTACK]

They ll give Love a chance to play for a title rematch with Warriors .......

If Cavs don't win the title .....then he ll leave or they trade for a better fit player.   Just don't think he ll waste another year in Cleveland should the Cavs fail.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

They ll give Love a chance to play for a title rematch with Warriors .......

If Cavs don't win the title .....then he ll leave or they trade for a better fit player.   Just don't think he ll waste another year in Cleveland should the Cavs fail.

The only way he can leave is by trade. I agree, I think they will try to give it this season.

[crimson_stallion]

If we did somehow end up with Love, he'd be utilized a LOT better than he is in CLE.

He is considerably better than he's looked there, especially since Kyrie has returned.

KLove reminds me of a 57 Chevy just sitting in someone's garage....never driven....barely driven in CLE, thus far.

If he somehow ends up in BOS I won't complain.

I mostly disagree. 

In fact, I believe the inverse of that is true, and that Love is considerably less impressive than he looked in Minnesota.

Love's stats in Cleveland vs his last year in Minnesota have been eerily similar pretty much every statistical category except for Free Throw Rate (which has reduced, but is still quite high) and Field Goal Attempts. 

For all intents and purposes, Love is the exact same guy right now as he was in Minnesota in 2013/14.  The only difference is that now he is no longer the #1 guy on a 40 win team, so his field goal attempts are lower.

If he came to Boston that he'd still be sharing the scoring load with Thomas, so although his attempts (and thus scoring numbers) would likely rise from where they are now, it wouldn't be by as much as many seem to think.

I suspect people believe that Love would leave Cleveland, come to Boston, and go right back to being a 24 -25 PPG scorer.  Not going to happen.  If he came to Boston in place of Crowder, we might see Love's numbers jump up to 21 /11 at best.

Considering Crowder already gives us 14/5 or so, that means we would gain maybe 6 or 7 PPG and 5 RPG, but we would lose the other things Crowder does for us - the toughness, the hustle, the defense, etc.

Personally, I think that a trade like that has us coming out about equal, if that. 

This is a league that is mostly dominated (offensively, at least) by perimeter players - guards and small forwards.  Having a guy like Crowder who can shut opposing perimeter scorers down is extremely valuable.  Having a guy who can do that AND hold his own on the offensive end as well, is like having a 5KG gold nugget.

The day Crowder became a consistent three point threat, everything changed.  Trading him for Love right now might not give much (if any) improvement to the team, despite the fact that you'd be paying Love roughly 3x more money.
 
I personally would much prefer we DIDN'T get Love.  I'm honestly just not a big fan of jump shooting big men who have defensive limitations and shoot guard-like Field Goal Percentages. 

Love obviously does have things he's very good at, and is a very good scorer - there's no doubt about that.  Advanced statistics over the past 2-3 years have also shown that his overall team defense is not nearly as bad as people suggest.

There is no doubt that he would be an immediate upgrade at the PF spot, but my concern is - at what cost?  If we could get Love via one of Ainge's traditional one-sided deals then I'd be fine with that, but I'd be very dissapointed if we gave up any of out young, talented core for him.

* The Brooklyn pick continues to look like it has future All-Star potential
* Thomas is officially an All-Star
* Crowder has 'future All-Star' written all over him
* Kelly Olynyk has shown great signs of maturity this year, and flashes of his impressive potential
* Avery Bradley is having perhaps the best season of his career
* Amir Johnson is the rim protector we always needed, and is makes a huge impact every minute he's on the court

Guys like that are the reason why we are currently only one game back from the 3rd seed in the East, and those guys are all on flexible contracts.

I am honestly quite hesitant to mess with a core like that for anybody short of a Demarcus Cousins caliber talent. 

That said if we did trade for Love I wouldn't hate Ainge and retire myself from Celtics 'fanism'.  I could live with it.  I just wouldn't be thrilled about it.  If anything I'd be a wee bit dissapointed.   

[crimson_stallion]

Sullinger, Lee, Jerebko and Draft considerations (not Brooklyn's picks)

Sully would be a good fit there I think and swapping him out for Love cancels out the rebounding loss.  So maybe you start there, but I don't like the idea of losing Crowder.  Lee and Jerebko are throw ins from their standpoint.  You'd probably have to give up one of the 'good' #1's.

Problem is though, they'd have to sign Sully.

That's true. 

Sully has a bad attitude, plays defense well but only when he feels like it, likes to complain on every call.  He'd be a perfect with Lebron in Cleveland!

lol jokes aside though, Sully does replace a lot of what Love gives them (except three point shooting..which was proably loves biggest asset really).  On his own he's obviously no compensation for Love, but in a package it might work.

I'd be willing to offer Sully, Lee (salary matching) and the 2018 Brooklyn pick.   Way i see it is this:

1) Sully probably has no future here anyway, and Love is an obvious upgrde

2) Lee wouldn't get playing time, but he seemed OK with that in Golden State while he was on a title contender - and Cleveland could probably use the extra veteran leadership, since the only real proper leader they have right now is Lebron.

3) Brooklyn will suck in 2016 and 2017, but with the massive cap in place and Joe Johnson nearing the end of his deal, there's a good chance they could be competitive again by the 2018 draft. 

It would sadden me to see us waste Lee's nice big expiring contract (I would have liked to see that cap space available in the offseason), but then our chances of signing a FA better than love in this offseason would probably be fairly slim...and if we had him it might help us bring in a third big name. 

So I guess I'd give that a shot...though I don't think I'd offer any more than that.