Think about this: Non-guaranteed contracts of AJ and JJ work for Love

[Snakehead]

Love would be better here than in Cleveland, but watching him I finally am giving up on him being anything more than the third best on a title team guy and that even may be generous.  He just doesn't have the fire and is useless on defense.

[Evantime34]

The idea of the Cavs dealing Love makes sense, the idea that the Celtics would be interested makes sense. I just don't see us having the type of assets the Cavs would want for Love. The Cavs are trying to win right now, they aren't doing a deal that makes them worse now.

 Any deal would probably have to involve a third team, that could give the Cavs a quality starter or two for our picks.

Then again, maybe we get Simmons and then the fit with Love doesn't make sense for us.

[crimson_stallion]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Love 2015-2016: 15.9, 10.8, .9 stls, .6 blcks, 19.46 PER

Sully 2015-2016: 9.8, 8.7, .8 stls, .7 blcks, 16.29 PER

And you can't look at minutes as a factor, because Sully's lardass can't play for more minutes. Also, Love is putting up those numbers under two All-Star offensive players. It's not even close. He could legitimately come here and easily put up 27 points a game with 10+ rebounds.

1) Yes, can look at Per 36. It gives you an indication of how much each player is producing while they are on the court. Plus we couldn't play Love that many minutes because of reason #2

2) You need to consider defense.  Sully, Amir Johnson and Kelly Olynyk are all far better defensive players than Love.  If Love and Thomas are on the floor together, our defense will get torched in the worst way.  That limits how much you can play those guys toghether...and since Thomas is our best offensive player (yes, I mean even if we had Love he's still our best) that means you need to cut down Love's minutes so he spends more time with Smart/Bradley/Turner rotations.  so it's likely he wouldn't be able to play more than 30 minutes here anyway.

3) Playing below two superstars is completely irrelevant. Kyrie has played like 12 games this year, and Love's stats are actually WORSE than they were last year (when Kyrie played 75 games).  It's blantantly obvious that his reduction in scoring production has absolutely nothing to do with playing behind Kyrie.  You can't blame Lebron either, Kyrie's per-36 scoring numbers didn't drop AT ALL since Lebron joined the Cavs, and D-Wade was consistently putting up ~ 20 PPG his entire time playing behind Lebron in Miami.  If it didn't affect them, there's no reason for it to affect love.

The reason Love's scoring has declined is not becuase of Lebron / Irving.  It's because his style of play has changed.

Last year only 39.4% of Love's field goal attempts came from within 10 feet, meaning over 60% of his shots were long jumpers.  His Free Throw Rate was 33.7%.

This year only 41.6% of Love's FGA have come from within 10 feet, again meaning that over 58% of his shots are long jumpers.  His free throw rate has dropped to 29.5%.

By comparison if you look back to the 2011/12 season love took about 49.5% of his attempts inside of 10 feet (33.5% inside 3 feet) and had a free throw rate of 43.4%.

Love has always been a similarly capable shooter, but the thing that made him such a dangerous scorer in his prime seasons was the fact that he was just as dangerous inside the paint as he was from outside - he used to draw fouls like a machine.  Over the years he's been taking less inside shots, taking more threes than ever before (43% of all FGA this year) and is getting to the line at a career low rate.

In 11-12 (arguably his greatest season as a pro) only 48% of Love's baskets were assisted.  Last year it was a career high 69%, and this year it's been slightly better 60%.

Love over the past three seasons has gradually been making the transition from a scorer, into simply a "shooter".  Maybe it's because of fear (after all the recent injuries) causing him to stray from contact, or maybe he's just getting older / lazier, I can't tell you.  It's not exclusively because of the change in role either, because in his final season in Minnesota the trends were already starting (35.5% of all FG were threes, only 25% of shots taken inside three feet, etc).

Kevin Love is still a good player, but as long as he continues this trend he really is just a rich man's Jared Sullinger / Kelly Olynyk.  He's good, but not good enough to justify that contract - especially given the length of the contract, his injury history, his questionable leadership skills, etc.

Perfectly suited to the role he is in now - a second or third tier role that allows him to just play his game and without having to worry about things like leadership, carrying the offense, etc. He'd be a perfect fit somewhere like Miami, San Antonio (after Duncan retires) or Golden State.  Not a good fit in a place like Boston, who needs somebody who can consistently carry the offense.  Thomas is great, but he needs a better scorer than Love to help him out.   

[jpotter33]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Love 2015-2016: 15.9, 10.8, .9 stls, .6 blcks, 19.46 PER

Sully 2015-2016: 9.8, 8.7, .8 stls, .7 blcks, 16.29 PER

And you can't look at minutes as a factor, because Sully's lardass can't play for more minutes. Also, Love is putting up those numbers under two All-Star offensive players. It's not even close. He could legitimately come here and easily put up 27 points a game with 10+ rebounds.

1) Yes, can look at Per 36. It gives you an indication of how much each player is producing while they are on the court. Plus we couldn't play Love that many minutes because of reason #2

2) You need to consider defense.  Sully, Amir Johnson and Kelly Olynyk are all far better defensive players than Love.  If Love and Thomas are on the floor together, our defense will get torched in the worst way.  That limits how much you can play those guys toghether...and since Thomas is our best offensive player (yes, I mean even if we had Love he's still our best) that means you need to cut down Love's minutes so he spends more time with Smart/Bradley/Turner rotations.  so it's likely he wouldn't be able to play more than 30 minutes here anyway.

3) Playing below two superstars is completely irrelevant. Kyrie has played like 12 games this year, and Love's stats are actually WORSE than they were last year (when Kyrie played 75 games).  It's blantantly obvious that his reduction in scoring production has absolutely nothing to do with playing behind Kyrie.  You can't blame Lebron either, Kyrie's per-36 scoring numbers didn't drop AT ALL since Lebron joined the Cavs, and D-Wade was consistently putting up ~ 20 PPG his entire time playing behind Lebron in Miami.  If it didn't affect them, there's no reason for it to affect love.

The reason Love's scoring has declined is not becuase of Lebron / Irving.  It's because his style of play has changed.

Last year only 39.4% of Love's field goal attempts came from within 10 feet, meaning over 60% of his shots were long jumpers.  His Free Throw Rate was 33.7%.

This year only 41.6% of Love's FGA have come from within 10 feet, again meaning that over 58% of his shots are long jumpers.  His free throw rate has dropped to 29.5%.

By comparison if you look back to the 2011/12 season love took about 49.5% of his attempts inside of 10 feet (33.5% inside 3 feet) and had a free throw rate of 43.4%.

Love has always been a similarly capable shooter, but the thing that made him such a dangerous scorer in his prime seasons was the fact that he was just as dangerous inside the paint as he was from outside - he used to draw fouls like a machine.  Over the years he's been taking less inside shots, taking more threes than ever before (43% of all FGA this year) and is getting to the line at a career low rate.

In 11-12 (arguably his greatest season as a pro) only 48% of Love's baskets were assisted.  Last year it was a career high 69%, and this year it's been slightly better 60%.

Love over the past three seasons has gradually been making the transition from a scorer, into simply a "shooter".  Maybe it's because of fear (after all the recent injuries) causing him to stray from contact, or maybe he's just getting older / lazier, I can't tell you.  It's not exclusively because of the change in role either, because in his final season in Minnesota the trends were already starting (35.5% of all FG were threes, only 25% of shots taken inside three feet, etc).

Kevin Love is still a good player, but as long as he continues this trend he really is just a rich man's Jared Sullinger / Kelly Olynyk.  He's good, but not good enough to justify that contract - especially given the length of the contract, his injury history, his questionable leadership skills, etc.

Perfectly suited to the role he is in now - a second or third tier role that allows him to just play his game and without having to worry about things like leadership, carrying the offense, etc. He'd be a perfect fit somewhere like Miami, San Antonio (after Duncan retires) or Golden State.  Not a good fit in a place like Boston, who needs somebody who can consistently carry the offense.  Thomas is great, but he needs a better scorer than Love to help him out.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his style of play and numbers have changed ever since he's been in Cleveland. They've completely misused him as merely a spot-up shooter the entire time. Plus, his numbers are quite a bit worse since Kyrie has been back than they were pre-Kyrie. LarBrd33 had them up earlier this week, but I can't quite remember the differences.

I'm grading final exams right now and can't really discuss this fully. I'll get back on here tomorrow and discuss this issue in more depth.

[wiley]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Love 2015-2016: 15.9, 10.8, .9 stls, .6 blcks, 19.46 PER

Sully 2015-2016: 9.8, 8.7, .8 stls, .7 blcks, 16.29 PER

And you can't look at minutes as a factor, because Sully's lardass can't play for more minutes. Also, Love is putting up those numbers under two All-Star offensive players. It's not even close. He could legitimately come here and easily put up 27 points a game with 10+ rebounds.

1) Yes, can look at Per 36. It gives you an indication of how much each player is producing while they are on the court. Plus we couldn't play Love that many minutes because of reason #2

2) You need to consider defense.  Sully, Amir Johnson and Kelly Olynyk are all far better defensive players than Love.  If Love and Thomas are on the floor together, our defense will get torched in the worst way.  That limits how much you can play those guys toghether...and since Thomas is our best offensive player (yes, I mean even if we had Love he's still our best) that means you need to cut down Love's minutes so he spends more time with Smart/Bradley/Turner rotations.  so it's likely he wouldn't be able to play more than 30 minutes here anyway.

3) Playing below two superstars is completely irrelevant. Kyrie has played like 12 games this year, and Love's stats are actually WORSE than they were last year (when Kyrie played 75 games).  It's blantantly obvious that his reduction in scoring production has absolutely nothing to do with playing behind Kyrie.  You can't blame Lebron either, Kyrie's per-36 scoring numbers didn't drop AT ALL since Lebron joined the Cavs, and D-Wade was consistently putting up ~ 20 PPG his entire time playing behind Lebron in Miami.  If it didn't affect them, there's no reason for it to affect love.

The reason Love's scoring has declined is not becuase of Lebron / Irving.  It's because his style of play has changed.

Last year only 39.4% of Love's field goal attempts came from within 10 feet, meaning over 60% of his shots were long jumpers.  His Free Throw Rate was 33.7%.

This year only 41.6% of Love's FGA have come from within 10 feet, again meaning that over 58% of his shots are long jumpers.  His free throw rate has dropped to 29.5%.

By comparison if you look back to the 2011/12 season love took about 49.5% of his attempts inside of 10 feet (33.5% inside 3 feet) and had a free throw rate of 43.4%.

Love has always been a similarly capable shooter, but the thing that made him such a dangerous scorer in his prime seasons was the fact that he was just as dangerous inside the paint as he was from outside - he used to draw fouls like a machine.  Over the years he's been taking less inside shots, taking more threes than ever before (43% of all FGA this year) and is getting to the line at a career low rate.

In 11-12 (arguably his greatest season as a pro) only 48% of Love's baskets were assisted.  Last year it was a career high 69%, and this year it's been slightly better 60%.

Love over the past three seasons has gradually been making the transition from a scorer, into simply a "shooter".  Maybe it's because of fear (after all the recent injuries) causing him to stray from contact, or maybe he's just getting older / lazier, I can't tell you.  It's not exclusively because of the change in role either, because in his final season in Minnesota the trends were already starting (35.5% of all FG were threes, only 25% of shots taken inside three feet, etc).

Kevin Love is still a good player, but as long as he continues this trend he really is just a rich man's Jared Sullinger / Kelly Olynyk.  He's good, but not good enough to justify that contract - especially given the length of the contract, his injury history, his questionable leadership skills, etc.

Perfectly suited to the role he is in now - a second or third tier role that allows him to just play his game and without having to worry about things like leadership, carrying the offense, etc. He'd be a perfect fit somewhere like Miami, San Antonio (after Duncan retires) or Golden State.  Not a good fit in a place like Boston, who needs somebody who can consistently carry the offense.  Thomas is great, but he needs a better scorer than Love to help him out.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his style of play and numbers have changed ever since he's been in Cleveland. They've completely misused him as merely a spot-up shooter the entire time. Plus, his numbers are quite a bit worse since Kyrie has been back than they were pre-Kyrie. LarBrd33 had them up earlier this week, but I can't quite remember the differences.

I'm grading final exams right now and can't really discuss this fully. I'll get back on here tomorrow and discuss this issue in more depth.

Love's defense is crud.  He belongs on the better-without-Blake Clippers next to DeAndre Jordan.  Here's the "not-happening" trade that does it:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zkrmrgj

Two Cleveland first rounders (whenever that may be) to the Clippers.  And the Philly pick 31 to the Clippers as well.

[CelticSince83]

You are absolutely correct regarding Love being a scapegoat this summer.
I don't think they were signed specifically to trade for Love, but I think those Amir and Jonas contracts were signed to be easily package-able pieces in a trade for a star, and Love is the most likely star that we'll have a shot at.

When the Cavs likely lose to SAS or GSW in the finals, Lebron will be looking for a scapegoat and a better defender at starting power forward.

Over at RealGM I saw a discussion on the Mavs board where a Celtics fan had asked if something like:
2018 Brooklyn pick
2017 Celtics 1st round pick
Olynyk
Amir

for Love

would potentially work in the offseason, and they seemed to think it was decent value.

I think they'd basically demand Avery Bradley+Amir and a pick. And we'd probably have to say yes- although Danny would probably try and send out something else other than Amir- because we'll need him next to Love on defense.

The great thing about any Love trade is that because of his 'mis fit' in Cleveland, he'll be attainable for a value trade.
The guy is still easily a #1 or #2 option, they just have no one feeding him in the post and Kyrie just doesn't look for him. It's only going to get worse for Love in CLE now that Kyrie is back and wanting to get his own stats.

I think this draft night could be very interesting for us.
Would be pretty sweet if we ended up getting lucky with the Brooklyn pick and got Ingram, Bender or Kris Dunn (or binked Simmons) and then somehow pried Love away with a nice package of picks+role players.

That's interesting. My whole thinking was they'd want the cap space to sign a free agent (possibly Durant, which would be just horrible). The thing is they already have Shumpert, who is Bradley-lite but with better size. I agree Bradley is an excellent fit next to Kyrie, but I wonder if they want him with Shumpert already.

There is absolutely no way the CAVS are clearing anywhere near enough cap space to go after a max player. 

[crimson_stallion]

Love's defense is crud.  He belongs on the better-without-Blake Clippers next to DeAndre Jordan.  Here's the "not-happening" trade that does it:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zkrmrgj

Two Cleveland first rounders (whenever that may be) to the Clippers.  And the Philly pick 31 to the Clippers as well.

lol @ Clippers trading Blake Griffin for Kevin Love and Evan Turner.

I'm trying to work out if Kevin Love would be better for the Clippers than Griffin or worse.  On one hand, his outside shooting would help spacing (needed with Deandre out there).  On the other hand, it brings the death of 'lob city' - Kevin Love is not catching ANY of those CP3 lobs haha

[crimson_stallion]

I don't think it's a coincidence that his style of play and numbers have changed ever since he's been in Cleveland. They've completely misused him as merely a spot-up shooter the entire time. Plus, his numbers are quite a bit worse since Kyrie has been back than they were pre-Kyrie. LarBrd33 had them up earlier this week, but I can't quite remember the differences.

I'm grading final exams right now and can't really discuss this fully. I'll get back on here tomorrow and discuss this issue in more depth.

The important point here is that his style of play hasn't changed since he's been in Cleveland - if you look at his career progression, you can see that his style of play started to change significantly in his final year with the Timberwolves (less emphasis on interior play, more reliance on outside shots) and that has only continued to go further in that direction since he joined Cleveland. 

Again, I couldn't tell you why it is - my belief is that it's probably a result of all the injuries he's had which have probably had a subconscious impact on him how he plays the game - probably leading to him wanting to play a lower risk style of game (less banging in the paint) in order to help reduce the risk of further injuries.

Can't really blame him if that's the case, but it doesn't change the fact that his tendency to stray further and further from the inside/out threat he once was undoubtedly reduces his value to a team.  His offensive efficiency has dropped off dramatically today (compared to say, four seasons ago) because not only has his free throw rate dropped significantly, but so has his field goal percentage.

This is why I was saying Love has become more like Sully  - he's getting to the line less (Sully has never been good at that), he's scoring in the paint less (Sully's shot attempts inside 3 feet have been dropping since his rookie year) and he's been settling for low percentage jumpers far more frequently (again, like Sully has). 

Obviously Love is a better offensive player than Sully, but he's also 27 years old and has had a history of injury issues, and has shown every sign of declining the past two seasons. Trading for a guy like that on a $100M / 5 year contact is a huge risk, and I'm not convinced he would make enough of an impact on our team to justify taking on that type of deal.  Even in the world of $100M salary caps, a deal like that is still big (and long) enough to have a significant impact on cap flexiblity.

[crimson_stallion]

You are absolutely correct regarding Love being a scapegoat this summer.
I don't think they were signed specifically to trade for Love, but I think those Amir and Jonas contracts were signed to be easily package-able pieces in a trade for a star, and Love is the most likely star that we'll have a shot at.

When the Cavs likely lose to SAS or GSW in the finals, Lebron will be looking for a scapegoat and a better defender at starting power forward.

Over at RealGM I saw a discussion on the Mavs board where a Celtics fan had asked if something like:
2018 Brooklyn pick
2017 Celtics 1st round pick
Olynyk
Amir

for Love

would potentially work in the offseason, and they seemed to think it was decent value.

I think they'd basically demand Avery Bradley+Amir and a pick. And we'd probably have to say yes- although Danny would probably try and send out something else other than Amir- because we'll need him next to Love on defense.

The great thing about any Love trade is that because of his 'mis fit' in Cleveland, he'll be attainable for a value trade.
The guy is still easily a #1 or #2 option, they just have no one feeding him in the post and Kyrie just doesn't look for him. It's only going to get worse for Love in CLE now that Kyrie is back and wanting to get his own stats.

I think this draft night could be very interesting for us.
Would be pretty sweet if we ended up getting lucky with the Brooklyn pick and got Ingram, Bender or Kris Dunn (or binked Simmons) and then somehow pried Love away with a nice package of picks+role players.

That's interesting. My whole thinking was they'd want the cap space to sign a free agent (possibly Durant, which would be just horrible). The thing is they already have Shumpert, who is Bradley-lite but with better size. I agree Bradley is an excellent fit next to Kyrie, but I wonder if they want him with Shumpert already.

There is absolutely no way the CAVS are clearing anywhere near enough cap space to go after a max player.

This.

The Cav's are in salary cap hell for a longgggggggggg time. 

[jpotter33]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Love 2015-2016: 15.9, 10.8, .9 stls, .6 blcks, 19.46 PER

Sully 2015-2016: 9.8, 8.7, .8 stls, .7 blcks, 16.29 PER

And you can't look at minutes as a factor, because Sully's lardass can't play for more minutes. Also, Love is putting up those numbers under two All-Star offensive players. It's not even close. He could legitimately come here and easily put up 27 points a game with 10+ rebounds.

1) Yes, can look at Per 36. It gives you an indication of how much each player is producing while they are on the court. Plus we couldn't play Love that many minutes because of reason #2

2) You need to consider defense.  Sully, Amir Johnson and Kelly Olynyk are all far better defensive players than Love.  If Love and Thomas are on the floor together, our defense will get torched in the worst way.  That limits how much you can play those guys toghether...and since Thomas is our best offensive player (yes, I mean even if we had Love he's still our best) that means you need to cut down Love's minutes so he spends more time with Smart/Bradley/Turner rotations.  so it's likely he wouldn't be able to play more than 30 minutes here anyway.

3) Playing below two superstars is completely irrelevant. Kyrie has played like 12 games this year, and Love's stats are actually WORSE than they were last year (when Kyrie played 75 games).  It's blantantly obvious that his reduction in scoring production has absolutely nothing to do with playing behind Kyrie.  You can't blame Lebron either, Kyrie's per-36 scoring numbers didn't drop AT ALL since Lebron joined the Cavs, and D-Wade was consistently putting up ~ 20 PPG his entire time playing behind Lebron in Miami.  If it didn't affect them, there's no reason for it to affect love.

The reason Love's scoring has declined is not becuase of Lebron / Irving.  It's because his style of play has changed.

Last year only 39.4% of Love's field goal attempts came from within 10 feet, meaning over 60% of his shots were long jumpers.  His Free Throw Rate was 33.7%.

This year only 41.6% of Love's FGA have come from within 10 feet, again meaning that over 58% of his shots are long jumpers.  His free throw rate has dropped to 29.5%.

By comparison if you look back to the 2011/12 season love took about 49.5% of his attempts inside of 10 feet (33.5% inside 3 feet) and had a free throw rate of 43.4%.

Love has always been a similarly capable shooter, but the thing that made him such a dangerous scorer in his prime seasons was the fact that he was just as dangerous inside the paint as he was from outside - he used to draw fouls like a machine.  Over the years he's been taking less inside shots, taking more threes than ever before (43% of all FGA this year) and is getting to the line at a career low rate.

In 11-12 (arguably his greatest season as a pro) only 48% of Love's baskets were assisted.  Last year it was a career high 69%, and this year it's been slightly better 60%.

Love over the past three seasons has gradually been making the transition from a scorer, into simply a "shooter".  Maybe it's because of fear (after all the recent injuries) causing him to stray from contact, or maybe he's just getting older / lazier, I can't tell you.  It's not exclusively because of the change in role either, because in his final season in Minnesota the trends were already starting (35.5% of all FG were threes, only 25% of shots taken inside three feet, etc).

Kevin Love is still a good player, but as long as he continues this trend he really is just a rich man's Jared Sullinger / Kelly Olynyk.  He's good, but not good enough to justify that contract - especially given the length of the contract, his injury history, his questionable leadership skills, etc.

Perfectly suited to the role he is in now - a second or third tier role that allows him to just play his game and without having to worry about things like leadership, carrying the offense, etc. He'd be a perfect fit somewhere like Miami, San Antonio (after Duncan retires) or Golden State.  Not a good fit in a place like Boston, who needs somebody who can consistently carry the offense.  Thomas is great, but he needs a better scorer than Love to help him out.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his style of play and numbers have changed ever since he's been in Cleveland. They've completely misused him as merely a spot-up shooter the entire time. Plus, his numbers are quite a bit worse since Kyrie has been back than they were pre-Kyrie. LarBrd33 had them up earlier this week, but I can't quite remember the differences.

I'm grading final exams right now and can't really discuss this fully. I'll get back on here tomorrow and discuss this issue in more depth.

Love's defense is crud.  He belongs on the better-without-Blake Clippers next to DeAndre Jordan.  Here's the "not-happening" trade that does it:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zkrmrgj

Two Cleveland first rounders (whenever that may be) to the Clippers.  And the Philly pick 31 to the Clippers as well.

I think Griffin would be even worse for the Cavaliers than Love. Love's a better rebounder and shooter, and Griffin is only marginally better defensively.

Honestly, I'm not sure who's a good fit for them right now. I think Kyrie is actually a bit too ball-dominant to really thrive with Lebron. Other than someone like Marc Gasol, I can't think of anyone that seems to be a really good fit there at the 4 or 5.

I don't even think it matters anyways, because they're not getting past GS or SA.

[jpotter33]

Love's defense is crud.  He belongs on the better-without-Blake Clippers next to DeAndre Jordan.  Here's the "not-happening" trade that does it:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zkrmrgj

Two Cleveland first rounders (whenever that may be) to the Clippers.  And the Philly pick 31 to the Clippers as well.

lol @ Clippers trading Blake Griffin for Kevin Love and Evan Turner.

I'm trying to work out if Kevin Love would be better for the Clippers than Griffin or worse.  On one hand, his outside shooting would help spacing (needed with Deandre out there).  On the other hand, it brings the death of 'lob city' - Kevin Love is not catching ANY of those CP3 lobs haha

I think Love makes LA better, but Griffin makes Cleveland worse.

[chambers]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Heh. Chuckle.

Why the chuckle?

Last Year
Love averaged 17.5 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steal and 0.6 blocks Per 36 while shooting 43% / 37% / 80%.

Sully averaged 17.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.0 steals, 1.0 block Per 36 and shot 44% / 28% / 74%.


This year
Love has averaged 17.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1 steal and 0.6 blocks Per 36 while shooting 41% / 36% / 80%.

Sully has averaged 14.7 points, 13 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.2 steals, 1 block Per 36 and has shot 43% / 28% / 61%.

Sully is 23 years old and will likely be lucky to get $15M this offseason.  Love is 27 years old and is making approx $20M a year every year until 5 years (until he turns 32). Love has had significantly more injury problems than Love, and Sully is a significantly better defensive player.

Personally I wouldn't want to extend Sully OR trade for Love because I don't like either guy's game...but I'd rather extend Sully for $45M/3 than trade for Love at $100M/5 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Love's production over the past two seasons in Cleveland has clearly proven what was obvious all along - that his overblown stats in Minnesota were purely a result of a guy who takes a LOT of shots on a really bad team. 

You can't even use the "#3 option" argument anymore, since Kyrie has been out of the lineup for almost the entire season so far (and even Lebron has missed some significant time) and Love is still putting up utterly mediocre numbers.

If Love was on a $15M a year for the next three years then sure, I'd consider that.  But he's already a shadow of the guy he was three or four years ago and he's only 27.  By the time he reaches 31-32 years of age (in the final years of the deal) that contract is going to look utterly terrible.  Especially since the deal is long enough to potentially outlast the "salary cap spike".

Love is a nice player, but he's not the kind of guy who would to take this team to another level.  He's an ageing complimentary piece, and we need either a centerpiece, or a young prospect with the potential to become a centerpiece.  Love is (IMHO) neither.  A modest upgrade over Sully, but that's about it.

I haven't got time for a long reply, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Crim.
Kevin Love has some defensive problems, but if he were given the same amount of shots as he had in Minnesota- particularly in the post- he'd be a borderline top 10 player.

Unfortunately in Cleveland he's simply misused. He's basically a Ryan Anderson clone that sits in the corner to:
A) get a kick from a driving Kyre
B) get a kick from a driving Lebron
C) Shoot a contested three on a ball swing

And in my opinion, the majority of it is lazy Lebron's fault. They don't run the pick and roll/pop for Lebron and Love, and it most of their sets, Lebron wants Love on the perimeter so he can drag the opposing PF out of the paint on defense, and then go Lebron- ISO, after which fails, kick to Love for a bailout three.
On our team of defensive juggernaughts, Love would have free roam to score 25 points and get 10 rebounds a game. He's arguably the best rebound+outlet passer in the NBA which would also help our guards in transition.
Our defense would help cover up his defensive liabilities (which are overblown-he's a PLUS defender and the Cavs opponents score less when he's on the floor), and our movement would be just perfect for this three point shooting and mid range to post play.

In 2014 the Wolves line up of:
Rubio/Martin/Brewer/Love/Pekovic scored 116.8 and allowed 104.0 (+12. per 100 possessions in over 1,000 minutes. For comparison sake, LeBron/Wade/Bosh scored 110.1 and allowed 105.9 (+4.2).

When Love is used correctly he is on of the best players in the NBA and his team outscores the opposing team by a wide margin.

Basically think of Kelly Olynk on steroids, with post game and better rebounding skills in Brad Stevens system.

As a Kevin Love fan, for me, him going to Cleveland is the perfect recipe for us to grab a disgruntled star guy who can be a legit top 20 NBA player. He's not a 1v1 bandit, he's more like Aldridge- the kind of guy that needs a system that suits his spot up/stretch game- and the Cavs are just a terrible home for his game style. I don't know if he could be the #1 option on a championship team, but he's close, and he could definitely be the #2 option.

Right now in Cleveland, there are just too many road blocks. They need to ditch Kyrie and get a passing point guard- someone who can find Love in the post and run the pick and pop on the elbow with him correctly.

ie the other night when he scored 15 points, 15 rebounds, 4 assists and had the highest +/- on the team, yet only took 11 shots all night, whilst JR Smith took 18 shots and Kyrie took 13.
Just a crappy situation for him.

I hope Danny pounces.

[pearljammer10]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Heh. Chuckle.

Why the chuckle?

Last Year
Love averaged 17.5 points, 10.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 0.7 steal and 0.6 blocks Per 36 while shooting 43% / 37% / 80%.

Sully averaged 17.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.0 steals, 1.0 block Per 36 and shot 44% / 28% / 74%.


This year
Love has averaged 17.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1 steal and 0.6 blocks Per 36 while shooting 41% / 36% / 80%.

Sully has averaged 14.7 points, 13 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.2 steals, 1 block Per 36 and has shot 43% / 28% / 61%.

Sully will never play 36 minutes per game so why do these hypothetical what if stats even matter? He's lucky to play 26 minutes a game let alone 36.

Love is playing third banana on a really good Cleveland team and has spent most of this year returning from injury. As a number one option, we all saw what kind of stats he could produce regardless of how bad his teams were. Replace Sullinger and Love on either of the Cavs or TWolves teams Love was on and there is no way Sullinger replicates his production or comes even close.

Love might be attrocious on defense but on the Celtics he would be an ideal second option, floor spreading 4 in BS's offense. He is what we want Kelly to be except he rebounds the ball much better. Replace Sully with Love on this Celtics team and Love is a 20, 10 guy easily.

IT
Bradley/Smart
Crowder
Love/KO
Amir/Jonas

That 8 man rotation fights for a 4-5 seed as opposed to where we are now which is anywhere from 7-10.

[Evantime34]

Love?  Seriously?

The guy is has been no better than Sully for the past two seasons.  Why in god's name would you want to get him on that horrible contract.

I'm going to pass on that in a massive way.

Love 2015-2016: 15.9, 10.8, .9 stls, .6 blcks, 19.46 PER

Sully 2015-2016: 9.8, 8.7, .8 stls, .7 blcks, 16.29 PER

And you can't look at minutes as a factor, because Sully's lardass can't play for more minutes. Also, Love is putting up those numbers under two All-Star offensive players. It's not even close. He could legitimately come here and easily put up 27 points a game with 10+ rebounds.

1) Yes, can look at Per 36. It gives you an indication of how much each player is producing while they are on the court. Plus we couldn't play Love that many minutes because of reason #2

2) You need to consider defense.  Sully, Amir Johnson and Kelly Olynyk are all far better defensive players than Love.  If Love and Thomas are on the floor together, our defense will get torched in the worst way.  That limits how much you can play those guys toghether...and since Thomas is our best offensive player (yes, I mean even if we had Love he's still our best) that means you need to cut down Love's minutes so he spends more time with Smart/Bradley/Turner rotations.  so it's likely he wouldn't be able to play more than 30 minutes here anyway.

3) Playing below two superstars is completely irrelevant. Kyrie has played like 12 games this year, and Love's stats are actually WORSE than they were last year (when Kyrie played 75 games).  It's blantantly obvious that his reduction in scoring production has absolutely nothing to do with playing behind Kyrie.  You can't blame Lebron either, Kyrie's per-36 scoring numbers didn't drop AT ALL since Lebron joined the Cavs, and D-Wade was consistently putting up ~ 20 PPG his entire time playing behind Lebron in Miami.  If it didn't affect them, there's no reason for it to affect love.

The reason Love's scoring has declined is not becuase of Lebron / Irving.  It's because his style of play has changed.

Last year only 39.4% of Love's field goal attempts came from within 10 feet, meaning over 60% of his shots were long jumpers.  His Free Throw Rate was 33.7%.

This year only 41.6% of Love's FGA have come from within 10 feet, again meaning that over 58% of his shots are long jumpers.  His free throw rate has dropped to 29.5%.

By comparison if you look back to the 2011/12 season love took about 49.5% of his attempts inside of 10 feet (33.5% inside 3 feet) and had a free throw rate of 43.4%.

Love has always been a similarly capable shooter, but the thing that made him such a dangerous scorer in his prime seasons was the fact that he was just as dangerous inside the paint as he was from outside - he used to draw fouls like a machine.  Over the years he's been taking less inside shots, taking more threes than ever before (43% of all FGA this year) and is getting to the line at a career low rate.

In 11-12 (arguably his greatest season as a pro) only 48% of Love's baskets were assisted.  Last year it was a career high 69%, and this year it's been slightly better 60%.

Love over the past three seasons has gradually been making the transition from a scorer, into simply a "shooter".  Maybe it's because of fear (after all the recent injuries) causing him to stray from contact, or maybe he's just getting older / lazier, I can't tell you.  It's not exclusively because of the change in role either, because in his final season in Minnesota the trends were already starting (35.5% of all FG were threes, only 25% of shots taken inside three feet, etc).

Kevin Love is still a good player, but as long as he continues this trend he really is just a rich man's Jared Sullinger / Kelly Olynyk.  He's good, but not good enough to justify that contract - especially given the length of the contract, his injury history, his questionable leadership skills, etc.

Perfectly suited to the role he is in now - a second or third tier role that allows him to just play his game and without having to worry about things like leadership, carrying the offense, etc. He'd be a perfect fit somewhere like Miami, San Antonio (after Duncan retires) or Golden State.  Not a good fit in a place like Boston, who needs somebody who can consistently carry the offense.  Thomas is great, but he needs a better scorer than Love to help him out.

I don't think it's a coincidence that his style of play and numbers have changed ever since he's been in Cleveland. They've completely misused him as merely a spot-up shooter the entire time. Plus, his numbers are quite a bit worse since Kyrie has been back than they were pre-Kyrie. LarBrd33 had them up earlier this week, but I can't quite remember the differences.

I'm grading final exams right now and can't really discuss this fully. I'll get back on here tomorrow and discuss this issue in more depth.

Love's defense is crud.  He belongs on the better-without-Blake Clippers next to DeAndre Jordan.  Here's the "not-happening" trade that does it:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zkrmrgj

Two Cleveland first rounders (whenever that may be) to the Clippers.  And the Philly pick 31 to the Clippers as well.

I think Griffin would be even worse for the Cavaliers than Love. Love's a better rebounder and shooter, and Griffin is only marginally better defensively.

Honestly, I'm not sure who's a good fit for them right now. I think Kyrie is actually a bit too ball-dominant to really thrive with Lebron. Other than someone like Marc Gasol, I can't think of anyone that seems to be a really good fit there at the 4 or 5.

I don't even think it matters anyways, because they're not getting past GS or SA.

Griffin is much more than only marginally better than Love defensively.

[Hemingway]

This thread is just silly. If the Cavs want to clear space this summer they could send Love to just about 28 other teams that would have the room due to the cap increase. It's like no one here understands this. Why would they trade for players they can waive or no pick up options on when they could just trade for picks and cap space? If you are talking mid season, it makes sense in matching up the numbers but why would they do it?

Sorry to be mean, but I really feel like this forum for the most part does not grasp the upcoming cap increase and what that means. 2 pages of reply and no one brings up the obvious.