What would it take to get Nerlens Noel?

[jpotter33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

I mean, that's convenient for you to say since you're a serial contrarian who is usually alone in your outlandish opinions.

However, I never said anything about Noel's play this year outside of the fact that he's looked like crap due to playing out of position.

I've been arguing that you utilize two completely different standards when evaluating players from other teams compared to Boston, which is basically a truism on Celticsblog at this point.

im alone in my opinions until I'm proven right, people change their wrong opinions, and forget I got there months before they did... Like when I was down on rondo and glen Davis... When I advocated tanking months before everyone did... Or when I was high on steph curry.  I'm not always right ... Nobody is.  But I'm not ashamed about believing Nerlens Noel is a better asset than Marcus smart. 

Some naysayers brought up me "liking" Bennett, stauskas and mclemore.  Sure... In comparison to the #16 pick I thought they were better gambles. Who knows what will become of the kid we took 16th.  I've never suggested those guys were better than smart.

It's funny, because you're the only poster on here I know that was so sorely wrong on an issue that he had to change his forum pic to eating crow for a day... 

By the way, upon looking at the bolded section it's no wonder that you have an army of people attacking you after nearly every post. That kind of rhetoric tends to leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Reminiscent of Denzel Washington at the end of Training Day.

If Smart didn't have the potential to be a Ron Artest type of defender, I think we would all agree that Smart was a big project at this point. I still have hope but so far he hasn't impressed at all on offense.

I think Larbrd is speaking some truth regarding Noel and Smart being on the same level. Either player could probably end up lapping the other but right now, it's a toss up.

And I totally agree. It's very fair to say they are similar prospects with similar ceilings right now. I think Smart will end up being the better two-way player, but it's a reasonable idea to think Noel will end up being the better player. Hell, I'm a big fan of Noel myself, and I would LOVE him on the C's, especially with Smart. And as much as I love Smart, I would possibly trade him straight up for Noel due to our current team's makeup, though I'm certainly not adding any picks.

I've only argued three things about Noel this year over several different threads:
1) Noel's trade value is down due to playing out of position.
2) He can't play the 4 spot long-term.
3) LarBrd33 isn't objective with the standard he uses to gauge Noel (or other non-Celtics players) versus the standard he uses to gauge Celtics players.

All three of those claims are absolutely true.

[LarBrd33]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

I mean, that's convenient for you to say since you're a serial contrarian who is usually alone in your outlandish opinions.

However, I never said anything about Noel's play this year outside of the fact that he's looked like crap due to playing out of position.

I've been arguing that you utilize two completely different standards when evaluating players from other teams compared to Boston, which is basically a truism on Celticsblog at this point.

im alone in my opinions until I'm proven right, people change their wrong opinions, and forget I got there months before they did... Like when I was down on rondo and glen Davis... When I advocated tanking months before everyone did... Or when I was high on steph curry.  I'm not always right ... Nobody is.  But I'm not ashamed about believing Nerlens Noel is a better asset than Marcus smart. 

Some naysayers brought up me "liking" Bennett, stauskas and mclemore.  Sure... In comparison to the #16 pick I thought they were better gambles. Who knows what will become of the kid we took 16th.  I've never suggested those guys were better than smart.

It's funny, because you're the only poster on here I know that was so sorely wrong on an issue that he had to change his forum pic to eating crow for a day... 

By the way, upon looking at the bolded section it's no wonder that you have an army of people attacking you after nearly every post. That kind of rhetoric tends to leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Reminiscent of Denzel Washington at the end of Training Day.

If Smart didn't have the potential to be a Ron Artest type of defender, I think we would all agree that Smart was a big project at this point. I still have hope but so far he hasn't impressed at all on offense.

I think Larbrd is speaking some truth regarding Noel and Smart being on the same level. Either player could probably end up lapping the other but right now, it's a toss up.

And I totally agree. It's very fair to say they are similar prospects with similar ceilings right now. I think Smart will end up being the better two-way player, but it's a reasonable idea to think Noel will end up being the better player. Hell, I'm a big fan of Noel myself, and I would LOVE him on the C's, especially with Smart. And as much as I love Smart, I would possibly trade him straight up for Noel due to our current team's makeup, though I'm certainly not adding any picks.

I've only argued three things about Noel this year over several different threads:
1) Noel's trade value is down due to playing out of position.
2) He can't play the 4 spot long-term.
3) LarBrd33 isn't objective with the standard he uses to gauge Noel (or other non-Celtics players) versus the standard he uses to gauge Celtics players.

All three of those claims are absolutely true.

meh. If I was holding Celtic players to the same standard I hold non-Celtic players I'd suggest moving a #16 pick for the underperforming marcus smart and later get buried for it if he continued to woefully disappoint a few months later.

[BballTim]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

I mean, that's convenient for you to say since you're a serial contrarian who is usually alone in your outlandish opinions.

However, I never said anything about Noel's play this year outside of the fact that he's looked like crap due to playing out of position.

I've been arguing that you utilize two completely different standards when evaluating players from other teams compared to Boston, which is basically a truism on Celticsblog at this point.

im alone in my opinions until I'm proven right, people change their wrong opinions, and forget I got there months before they did... Like when I was down on rondo and glen Davis... When I advocated tanking months before everyone did... Or when I was high on steph curry.  I'm not always right ... Nobody is.  But I'm not ashamed about believing Nerlens Noel is a better asset than Marcus smart. 

Some naysayers brought up me "liking" Bennett, stauskas and mclemore.  Sure... In comparison to the #16 pick I thought they were better gambles. Who knows what will become of the kid we took 16th.  I've never suggested those guys were better than smart.

It's funny, because you're the only poster on here I know that was so sorely wrong on an issue that he had to change his forum pic to eating crow for a day... 

exactly, potter... Which should tell you I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong... as rare as I may be.  Fact is, I'm playing with house money at this point.  In the 10+ years I've been posting here, my "warped opinions" have been proven right literally hundreds of times.  It's why people can remember the rare misses and hold it over my head in every post.  Like the biyombo vs wcs debate... I was alone in that one ... Didn't make me any less right.   But nobody cares about that debate anymore... They want to gloat about me liking staukass over whatever was left at #16.

  While your "warped opinions" aren't always wrong, they aren't overly right either. You're probably average(ish) in that regard. I'd guess you're a little selective in your memory, but that's not unusual. You're also a tad selective in deciding you were right about things. For instance, you were an early advocate of tanking, but was that the right way to go? There's no more evidence that's true now than there was when the discussions were happening.

   Likewise, you were "right" about Rondo, but right now he's averaging 11+ assists/game, something you were pretty confident he'd never do again. I don't think your bi-annual "Rondo's about to be traded" prediction finally coming true really helps you out either. Some things you were right about (like Curry), some not so much (the Kobe/Nash/Howard Lakers team that was going to lay waste to the league, or the KG/PP Nets that were always on the verge of a 15 game winning streak). Again, not the worst, but I don't think you're quite on the savant level yet.

[Celtics18]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

I mean, that's convenient for you to say since you're a serial contrarian who is usually alone in your outlandish opinions.

However, I never said anything about Noel's play this year outside of the fact that he's looked like crap due to playing out of position.

I've been arguing that you utilize two completely different standards when evaluating players from other teams compared to Boston, which is basically a truism on Celticsblog at this point.

im alone in my opinions until I'm proven right, people change their wrong opinions, and forget I got there months before they did... Like when I was down on rondo and glen Davis... When I advocated tanking months before everyone did... Or when I was high on steph curry.  I'm not always right ... Nobody is.  But I'm not ashamed about believing Nerlens Noel is a better asset than Marcus smart. 

Some naysayers brought up me "liking" Bennett, stauskas and mclemore.  Sure... In comparison to the #16 pick I thought they were better gambles. Who knows what will become of the kid we took 16th.  I've never suggested those guys were better than smart.

It's funny, because you're the only poster on here I know that was so sorely wrong on an issue that he had to change his forum pic to eating crow for a day... 

By the way, upon looking at the bolded section it's no wonder that you have an army of people attacking you after nearly every post. That kind of rhetoric tends to leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Reminiscent of Denzel Washington at the end of Training Day.

If Smart didn't have the potential to be a Ron Artest type of defender, I think we would all agree that Smart was a big project at this point. I still have hope but so far he hasn't impressed at all on offense.

I think Larbrd is speaking some truth regarding Noel and Smart being on the same level. Either player could probably end up lapping the other but right now, it's a toss up.

And I totally agree. It's very fair to say they are similar prospects with similar ceilings right now. I think Smart will end up being the better two-way player, but it's a reasonable idea to think Noel will end up being the better player. Hell, I'm a big fan of Noel myself, and I would LOVE him on the C's, especially with Smart. And as much as I love Smart, I would possibly trade him straight up for Noel due to our current team's makeup, though I'm certainly not adding any picks.

I've only argued three things about Noel this year over several different threads:
1) Noel's trade value is down due to playing out of position.
2) He can't play the 4 spot long-term.
3) LarBrd33 isn't objective with the standard he uses to gauge Noel (or other non-Celtics players) versus the standard he uses to gauge Celtics players.

All three of those claims are absolutely true.

meh. If I was holding Celtic players to the same standard I hold non-Celtic players I'd suggest moving a #16 pick for the underperforming marcus smart and later get buried for it if he continued to woefully disappoint a few months later.

Yes, Marcus Smart is underperforming offensively, but you've got to admit that his defensive talent makes him a way better prospect than guys like Nik Stauskas or Ben McLemore at this point.

The way Marcus plays d all but guarantees he'll have a long and productive NBA career if he can stay healthy.

So, yeah, I'd think anyone would trade a sixteen pick for Marcus Smart.

[SHAQATTACK]

Abduction

[tazzmaniac]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

Noel seems like a guy who may play better on an actual team. When the Sixers had MCW, I somewhat remember Noel having some chemistry with him and playing decent.

I would definitely consider trading the Nets pick this year if it's not one of the top two picks and next years Nets pick for Noel. I think that would be a bargain considering how poor this draft is.

Actually MCW and Noel didn't have good chemistry.  After the MCW trade and playing with Ish Smith a few games, Noel said Smith was the best PG that he'd ever played with.  Noel played significantly better offensively with Smith last year.  I expect Okafor and Smith will develop good chemistry after they've played together for a while. 

[KeepRondo]

Well the "buy low" window might be closing a tiny bit. Ever since ish smith was brought back, Noel has looked fantastic. They have actually won a couple games.

Noel's last 3 games since Ish took over at PG:   14 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks 3 steals beating the suns ... 18 points 6 rebounds 5 blocks 2 steals in a 4 point loss to utah.  Then tonight he had 20 points 9 rebounds 4 steals in 26 minutes beating the Kings...

It's a noticeable improvement similar to how Noel played last year when ish smith was there (14 points 11 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 2.5 steals)... Part of that clearly has to do with Okafor being out and Noel being able to play minutes at his natural center position.   The Ish Smith thing also backs up the comments from analysts like David Thorpe who have suggested that Noel would be a lot better surrounded with real NBA talent.  It's not like Ish Smith is a star point guard... But the difference between Noel with and without a quasi NBA player running point is pretty stunning.  Imagine what he could do on a real basketball team with a legitimate starting point guard?

I think the idea that Noel has "regressed" is faulty.  He's been injured, played out of position and hasn't had a point guard.  These last 3 games back up the long standing belief that Noel hasn't been put in a position to succeed this year.  He's still got a huge future as a dominant defender and his offense may have actually improved a little.  No, he can't shoot jump shots and isn't going to be a great power forward, but that wasn't his role last year and that shouldn't be his role heading forward.  It's still clear that unless they want to have Okafor continue to come off the bench or try playing Okafor at power forward, Noel is going to need to be separated from him to be successful.

Interestingly enough, it seems even philly media is on board with moving Noel at this point... Knowing that they have Okafor and very possibly a healthy embiid next year.  This article is from earlier today before another ish/noel philly win, but should still be relevant.  They suggested the team needed a quality guard prospect to build around and our very own Marcus smart made the bottom of the list of desired assets (behind Schroeder, oladipo and lavine):   http://mobile.philly.com/sports/sixers/?wss=/philly/sports/sixers&id=363871081

Around the 2015 draft, there were rumors that Boston general manager Danny Ainge offered Smart and two first-round picks to the Sixers for Noel.

In hindsight, it is too bad they did not accept.

The return might not be as big now, but it is certainly worth a call to see if Ainge is still interested.

The Celtics have big dollars committed to point guard Isaiah Thomas, 26, through the 2017-18 season.

Smart, who has just returned after missing 18 games with a knee injury, might still be expendable.

Ainge is primarily looking for a go-to scorer, so, even if he no longer wanted Noel for the Celtics, Noel is still has value as the kind of young, athletic big man who can be packaged with first-round picks, of which Boston has four in 2016, in a bigger deal.

Of many pressing needs, the Sixers' biggest is a high-ceiling point guard. In only his second season, Smart (career 8.0 points, 3.1 assists, 3.4 rebounds) still fits that profile.

I would offer Noel and throw-ins to complete a deal. You might even still squeeze a first-round pick out of Boston.


Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20151231_Sixers_need_to_make_a_deal__and_Noel_could_be_a_key_piece.html#e8iMmQ53PYAVX5mo.99

Man, I don't mean to keep laying into you, but it's absolutely amazing how you have two different standards for Celtics players versus other teams' players (or at least players who you dislike versus who you like). Smart has had just as many contextual factors, if not more, affecting his play this year as Noel, e.g. injuries, team philosophy, much better team, etc., yet you constantly say he hasn't improved, which you claim means he's just going to top out as a "defensive role player," as you like to call it. How in the hell is it fair that you say one judgment is faulty, but then use that very same reasoning to disparage another player??

Smart has been given every opportunity to shine at his natural position.  Ever since mid season last year he's had a chance to step up.  Aside from one game against OKC, he has been garbage on offense.  He likely has lost his starting role barring injury. 

Yes, Noel is a poor offensive player too... But you need offense from your point guard in this league. You can get away with having a defensive center.  I don't care how "small" the league is getting. Having an elite rim protector is exponentially more valuable than having an elite guard defender.  Ben Wallace in his prime will always be more valuable than tony Allen in his prime.  Reason:  basketball.

The Marcus smart example is a poor one.  I'm not ignoring what's happening with the Celtics. If you want a more accurate comparison, look at our bench. When I say Noel hasn't regressed, I'd say the same about Tyler zeller or Kelly olynyk.  Those guys haven't "regressed". Their role has changed.  If Sullinger was exclusively played at small forward for a season, I wouldn't suggest he's "regressed".  These last few games with Noel playing his natural center position with ish smith basically prove he's going to be fine.  It's easy to dismiss it as a small sample size unless you acknowledge what has gone on in Philly this year.  Okafor is a great prospect but he plays the same position.  They have asked Noel to play a different position next to Okafor and it hasn't worked.  If Marcus smart was playing all his minutes this year at power forward, maybe I'd give him more of a pass.

So essentially you just did exactly what I stated, i.e. you weighted the contextual factors different to give the edge to your guy while discrediting the other relevant contextual factors. Got it.

Smart has played in 11 games so far this year, three or four of which he's been limited in minutes played due to recovering from injury. He also plays on a team that is much better than Philly with six times as many wins, a stricter team-oriented philosophy, and a smaller role in the offense due to not playing with 75% D-Leaguers. These are contextual factors that are just as relevant as Noel playing out of position, but of course you deny them because they don't fit your narrative that you're trying to sell. Objectivity is hard.

I would bet big money that Smart's offensive numbers, outside of fg%, would dwarf Norl's numbers if he was playing for Philly right now.

welcome to the world of lb. now wait for him to either deny he does so, or, move the goal posts. i suggest you stop this particular discussion since lb is not about to change.

In a nutshell.

Maybe he's upset that after 3 1/2 years of misery their best player is named Ish Smith.

Being wrong in a group doesn't make you right.  I'm not going to sway my opinion based on some ribbledizzydanking from a mob of forum fizzlebiscuits.  Those who follow the league understand Noel's value. No amount of nonsensical blatherblasting is going to change the reality of Noel's value.  Like that Philly article said, ainge was rumored to have offered smart + two 1sts for Noel.  Maybe philly will take a little less now. I suspect they will have options outside of Boston.  Id sure love Noel here though.

Noel seems like a guy who may play better on an actual team. When the Sixers had MCW, I somewhat remember Noel having some chemistry with him and playing decent.

I would definitely consider trading the Nets pick this year if it's not one of the top two picks and next years Nets pick for Noel. I think that would be a bargain considering how poor this draft is.

Actually MCW and Noel didn't have good chemistry.  After the MCW trade and playing with Ish Smith a few games, Noel said Smith was the best PG that he'd ever played with.  Noel played significantly better offensively with Smith last year.  I expect Okafor and Smith will develop good chemistry after they've played together for a while.

I agree that a true PG would help him more but MCW was more helpful to Noel's game than any of the trash guards they had this year before getting Smith.

[LarBrd33]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom. 

[Birdman]

I take Noel over Smart

[BitterJim]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

[LarBrd33]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

I guess we have to see how Nerlens looks in 8 years... cuz Chandler didn't win DPOY until he was 29 years old in his 11th NBA season.  He wasn't much of anything his first three years.

Nerlens' floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler.   

Actually kind of interesting... I was curious how much of a difference Ish Smith actually made in Nerlens.   

They haven't started a ton of games together yet.  It's a small sample size.  In total, there have been 13 games in which Noel has started next to Ish Smith and played at least 25 minutes.  His stats during those 13 games:  15.7 points, 11.1 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.3 steals, 2.2 blocks with 56% shooting in 33mpg. 

[KeepRondo]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

I guess we have to see how Nerlens looks in 8 years... cuz Chandler didn't win DPOY until he was 29 years old in his 11th NBA season.  He wasn't much of anything his first three years.

Nerlens' floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler.   

Actually kind of interesting... I was curious how much of a difference Ish Smith actually made in Nerlens.   

They haven't started a ton of games together yet.  It's a small sample size.  In total, there have been 13 games in which Noel has started next to Ish Smith and played at least 25 minutes.  His stats during those 13 games:  15.7 points, 11.1 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.3 steals, 2.2 blocks with 56% shooting in 33mpg.

Smart and Noel would be a nice combination on D. Maybe we just give them the next 2 Nets picks for Saric and Noel.

[obnoxiousmime]

It would have been nice if they had continued to be absolutely horrible and still brought Noel off the bench of made him play out of position. Because then the odds of him taking the qualifying offer and leaving as an UFA in two years would have been increased.

And guess what team would come calling offering him a chance to play in his hometown?

[chilidawg]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

Voice of reason

[Eddie20]

You can definitely see how a PG makes a difference on a guy like Noel.  He's quick and has hops.  His offensive game is very limited.  Just watch the highlights from his 20 point game the other night to see what I'm talking about:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qakNknbU8o

There's a reason why Ish Smith's arrival last year resulted in Noel's offensive stats spiking.   It's the same reason they have spiked over the last 3 games.   It definitely reminds me of when Tyson Chandler's stats spiked playing with CHris Paul (alley-oop party)... but we're talking about Ish freakin Smith here... he's barely a starting PG.    Gives you an idea of how bad the surrounding talent on Philly has been that it takes Ish Smith to unlock some potential in Noel. 

So what are we really talking about here?  Noel's floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler?  I'd take it.  He might actually already be a better defender than Tyson... We haven't seen NOel in a real NBA system yet. 

Here's his highlights in the game prior to last against Utah when he had 18 points, 5 blocks and 2 steals.  You still see Ish Smith setting him up for basically all of his points, but flashes of his potential are there... you actually see him hit a couple mid-range shots.  You can also see how Noel roaming the paint without Okafor results in defensive plays:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPyKuCKw88

From watching both of those videos you also get a sense of why Noel is struggling with Okafor clogging the middle.   Okafor takes up a lot of space and when they feed him inside he's an old-school post-up player... Noel's success seems to be mostly coming on fast breaks and lots of movement.   Defensively, he needs to be roaming around the paint.   It's really clear those two can't play together.   I'd love to see Zach Lowe or someone do a breakdown video of why Noel has been struggling this year.   So much of it has to do with system and players surrounding him.

So what's Smart's floor?  Rich man's Tony Allen? 

I agree both of those guys have a lot of potential.  I agree both of those guys have a lot of flaws.  I'd rather have Noel.   The common argument is that "the league is going small!... you don't need a center!"... it's not true at all, though.   As the league goes smaller it means you need scoring from your small guys.  Smart (so far) hasn't displayed scoring competence.  Also, as the league goes smaller it just heightens the need for a superior interior defender.   SO many of these little guys are able to get into the paint whereas in the past the rules made it a lot more difficult.   You need someone at the rim challenging shots.   Guys like Noel will always have value in this league.  What you might not need these days is a classic post-up player like Okafor.  I don't blame Philly for not biting on a trade yet... they are sitting on a really difficult decision.  They might actually be better off keeping Noel and selling okafor for a fool's ransom.

It would be great if Noel's floor was a rich-man's version of a player that won DPOY, but that's a lot more likely to be his ceiling than his floor

I guess we have to see how Nerlens looks in 8 years... cuz Chandler didn't win DPOY until he was 29 years old in his 11th NBA season.  He wasn't much of anything his first three years.

Nerlens' floor is rich man's Tyson Chandler.   

Actually kind of interesting... I was curious how much of a difference Ish Smith actually made in Nerlens.   

They haven't started a ton of games together yet.  It's a small sample size.  In total, there have been 13 games in which Noel has started next to Ish Smith and played at least 25 minutes.  His stats during those 13 games:  15.7 points, 11.1 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.3 steals, 2.2 blocks with 56% shooting in 33mpg.

Do you just say things simply for shock value? You say thing favoring Noel (like him not being able to play alongside Okafor) and then say "Chandler wasn't anything his first 3 years", which totally dismisses the fact he came out of HS and played alongside a Okafor type player in Curry.

The reality is that Chandler is Noel's ceiling whether you care to realize it or not. Noel will seriously need to improve his post D and and rebounding to ever be on par with Chandler. This also doesn't take into account that Chandler is much larger and actually has great hands unlike stone hands Noel.