Author Topic: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent  (Read 20851 times)

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Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2015, 05:19:23 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The point was that having the only two players of your rotation giving you quality minutes in the starting unit, rather than balancing out and having one off the bench, is telling that the main reason Amir and Sullinger are on the floor is because they've simply have been the two best bigs for Stevens.
Yeah, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If you don't see or understand that Sullinger starts pretty much because he's the only guy on the team that can effectively box out centers, I can't help you.

And again you fail to understand that Amir and Sullinger are the only two bigs that can actually do that, and by playing them alonside in your starting unit, you're limiting the time on the floor in which at least one of them is on the floor. If don't see that or understand that by playing Amir and Sullinger together you're essentially maximizing our worst defending unit on the floor (Lee/Olynyk pair) then I can't help you.
Olynyk is a better defender than you give him credit for. That still doesn't make him a center (plaus, that's a different discussion altogether).

Also, you do understand that matchups do not exist in a vacuum, and that having your best pairing against the opponents best pairing is potentially more valuable than having an even spread over 48 minutes, right?

Where exactly haven't I given Olynyk his proper credit defensively? Even in this thread I mentioned he's defending much better and have made numerous mentions of that throughout the season. But by your own admission he's incapable of boxing out those center types (when he decides to actually try and box out) and if you're pairing those aspects alongside David Lee, then you're creating our weakest defensive pairing. I'm not sure how that observation, based also on statements you've already laid in your argument, has anything to do with whether Olynyk is being given enough credit defensively or not.

By the way, Sullinger has been better than him defensively this year, just thought it was worth mentioning.

If anyone is not being given enough credit here is Amir Johnson and his ability to step in the center role if the situation warranted (for example, a situation in which Olynyk was seen as a better alternative to Sullinger, playing better). Your dismissiveness of Johnson's ability to step into that role, which is there for the taking if Olynyk steps up his game, is a bit telling I think.

The point in all of this is that the sole reason for Sullinger being a starter is not because he's viable to play the position, which indeed plays a role in it, but when everything is laid out it's simply because Sullinger has been better than Olynyk in almost all facets of the game this season. And regardless of position, if that weren't true, Olynyk would be for Stevens (if you know Stevens at all you should agree) a viable candidate to start for the Celtics whether it be playing alongside Amir or Sullinger.

All of this with Sullinger playing more minutes than Olynyk, while also seen seemingly as an outcast by Stevens and Ainge, while being seen as the odd man out and out of the rotation entering the season, while a popular knowledge that Olynyk has been by large Stevens binkie since he came to the league leads me to believe that Sullinger starting is not merely because he can play Center and Olynyk can't.

Of course, this discussion on a tangent of the original misguided and false statement that was discrediting Sullinger's play because he apparently couldn't start over Olynyk yet has been doing so all year. Not only has he been starting, but out playing him. You want to make it an issue about simple positions, be my guest. But we all know that's not the simple of it.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2015, 05:30:04 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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You're aware that Olynyk's FG% is the same as Sullinger's this season correct?

That doesn't seem like an accurate statement. Their overall % is equal, but Olynyk is shooting much better than Sully on three pointers. Olynyk is also shooting better at free throws.

Olynyk has proven he can hit the three. Sully has proven he cannot. That's why Olynyk has a much better eFG % than Sully. And this is also with Olynyk in a little bit of a shooting slump to start the season. He is 4-5% points down from his first two years. But he hits his free throws and 3's. He also doesn't have a fat gut.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2015, 05:31:05 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Sullinger averages 6 more rebounds per 36 than Olynyk, and he is BY FAR the best rebounder on this team.

JJ Hickson?  LOL.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2015, 05:36:58 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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You're aware that Olynyk's FG% is the same as Sullinger's this season correct?

That doesn't seem like an accurate statement. Their overall % is equal, but Olynyk is shooting much better than Sully on three pointers. Olynyk is also shooting better at free throws.

Olynyk has proven he can hit the three. Sully has proven he cannot. That's why Olynyk has a much better eFG % than Sully. And this is also with Olynyk in a little bit of a shooting slump to start the season. He is 4-5% points down from his first two years. But he hits his free throws and 3's. He also doesn't have a fat gut.

The statement introduced was about FG%, that it omitted other advance stats doesn't make my statement false. Just incomplete. But since I wasn't the one who offered that stat by which players were going to be judged on, but the other poster I quoted (which you removed) my statement as it pertains his is more than accurate.

Earlier in the thread I made mention of Olynyk shooting better from 3s and FTs which put his TS% above Sullinger.

The exact statement I was responding to was "Matter of fact with the mins he plays and fg percent he is an inefficient offensive player."

My rebuke was on point. Maybe a bit misleading, but on point.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2015, 05:40:27 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Why is Sully versus Olynyk such a heated issue for people?  Haven't we seen enough at this point to conclude that neither is likely to make or break this team in the long run? 

You'd be happy to have either guy on the bench, and you might be able to get by with one of them (probably not both) in your starting lineup. 

Whether we end up with Sully, Olynyk, both, or neither will probably ultimately depend on how much other teams value them -- as trade assets or as free agents.
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Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2015, 05:46:06 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Why is Sully versus Olynyk such a heated issue for people?  Haven't we seen enough at this point to conclude that neither is likely to make or break this team in the long run? 

You'd be happy to have either guy on the bench, and you might be able to get by with one of them (probably not both) in your starting lineup. 

Whether we end up with Sully, Olynyk, both, or neither will probably ultimately depend on how much other teams value them -- as trade assets or as free agents.

Personally, overall I like both... though certainly I like Sullinger significantly more than Olynyk. Olynyk's improved defense this year has lessened some of my concerns, but what I saw from him last year in the playoffs, how he couldn't be trusted with the physicality of the playoffs, put me on the stance that he should be moved ASAP... not something I'm really sweating. I like his current role, and I'm happy to keep it that way for a longer term. My biggest worry stemmed from him being Stevens binkie and me not trusting Stevens to use him correctly or limit his role/minutes when required. So far so good I think for now.

My biggest beef is the double standard of not giving Sullinger a fair shake among some posters. Not only that, but twisting facts. In this case because there's an agenda of the "Mickey + Olynyk Starting Unit" movement. :)

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2015, 06:03:56 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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The statement introduced was about FG%, that it omitted other advance stats doesn't make my statement false. Just incomplete. But since I wasn't the one who offered that stat by which players were going to be judged on, but the other poster I quoted (which you removed) my statement as it pertains his is more than accurate.

Earlier in the thread I made mention of Olynyk shooting better from 3s and FTs which put his TS% above Sullinger.

The exact statement I was responding to was "Matter of fact with the mins he plays and fg percent he is an inefficient offensive player."

My rebuke was on point. Maybe a bit misleading, but on point.

Thanks. Sorry. I wasn't trying to do a gotcha.

I am invested in this Sully versus Olynyk conundrum because I thought he had turned a corner. I feel Sully has personally let me down.  I don't think he's anything special unless he gets into shape. He's a natural at basketball, no doubt. However, it doesn't look like he has the stamina to provide more than 25 quality minutes per game. If Olynyk develops, he looks like he could play all 48.

Sully has never proven he can hit threes. I find it kind of boring, but that is where the league is now. Three is worth more than two. I don't like Sullinger taking them. Hasn't he had enough chances?

He is still fat and can't hit threes.

I recant my previous support for him.

I'll eat crow, however, if I must. It's not like I am praying he plays badly so I look good on this board.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2015, 06:21:52 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Except I was paying attention. That was what, 4 years ago?

That was in '12-13 (and then - almost - in '13-14). So no, it wasn't 4 years ago.

TriBoy was talking about right now, this year, Sullinger would be easily replaceable with a "near double double guy" like Hickson. That's hogwash. Hickson is a decent player who does a few things well. But Sullinger does a lot of things well. Hickson can't pass, which is KEY to playing big minutes on this team, is an even poorer defender than Sullinger, can't shoot outside of 10 feet and is a liability in the 4th since he's been shooting under 60% the past few years. He doesn't have half the BBIQ Sullinger has and lacks any kind of handling ability, which Sullinger also has. Nevermind the fact that Sullinger is 23 and on the upswing while Hickson is 27 and on the downswing.
Well, if Sullinger had half the BBIQ you think he has, he probably wouldn't be taking 3-4 threes a game with his stellar 29% shooting. And speaking about liability, Sullinger is not exactly lighting it up from the FT line this season.

The fact that guys like Johnson, Zeller, and even Bradley and Jerebko have gotten big minutes on our team is telling me that passing is a desirable but not absolutely indispensible attribute.

Again, the fact that no-one else on this roster can play center efficiently doesn't make Sullinger irreplaceable.

If you have any more questions talk to my lawyer  Kozlodoev on JJ Hickson vs Sully :)
Where do I send the bill? :P

Oh, sorry. Three years. What a world of difference. Doesn't make him any better of a player today. Johnson, Zeller, Bradley and Jerebko are all better passers than Hickson is. Nevermind that taking away of our better passers (Sully) for one as poor as Hickson makes you have 5 players who don't pass well. You don't need every player to be able to pass, just like you don't need every player to be able to shoot FT's well or play elite defense but Stevens likes to have capable passers all over the lineup, and if you have a guy good enough to play 25-30 mpg with that skill it's better than to not have one. He plays on a team that has encouraged him to develop his outside shot. It's been sporadic, like how he was shooting almost 40% at the start of the year, but it's not just solely on Sullinger for shooting at lot of threes. Coaching and system have a lot to do with it. That doesn't take away from the fact that he makes a lot of smart plays. Or that he's a much more versatile player (another valued trait on this team) than Hickson

Zeller played C really efficiently last year and now he's been relegated to the end of the bench because of his poor play.

I never said Sullinger was irreplaceable did I? No. I just said you couldn't replace what he brings to this team with a guy like JJ Hickson. That's not exactly a groundbreaking statement. Sullinger is a better player in almost every aspect of the game.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2015, 06:54:53 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Except I was paying attention. That was what, 4 years ago?

That was in '12-13 (and then - almost - in '13-14). So no, it wasn't 4 years ago.

TriBoy was talking about right now, this year, Sullinger would be easily replaceable with a "near double double guy" like Hickson. That's hogwash. Hickson is a decent player who does a few things well. But Sullinger does a lot of things well. Hickson can't pass, which is KEY to playing big minutes on this team, is an even poorer defender than Sullinger, can't shoot outside of 10 feet and is a liability in the 4th since he's been shooting under 60% the past few years. He doesn't have half the BBIQ Sullinger has and lacks any kind of handling ability, which Sullinger also has. Nevermind the fact that Sullinger is 23 and on the upswing while Hickson is 27 and on the downswing.
Well, if Sullinger had half the BBIQ you think he has, he probably wouldn't be taking 3-4 threes a game with his stellar 29% shooting. And speaking about liability, Sullinger is not exactly lighting it up from the FT line this season.

The fact that guys like Johnson, Zeller, and even Bradley and Jerebko have gotten big minutes on our team is telling me that passing is a desirable but not absolutely indispensible attribute.

Again, the fact that no-one else on this roster can play center efficiently doesn't make Sullinger irreplaceable.

If you have any more questions talk to my lawyer  Kozlodoev on JJ Hickson vs Sully :)
Where do I send the bill? :P

Kozlodoev points have my approval. Sullinger is "Antoine Walker-ing it" on the three pt line. That is not smart.

Koz send the bill to BudweiserCeltic .

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2015, 06:58:14 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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I don't know how this has turned into KO vs Sully debate. But one guy , unless there is a big trade scenario , is locked up for a few more seasons while another is looking for a big contract next

You don't trade KO and his friendly salary because you want to resign Sullinger for 14 million a season. 

 

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2015, 07:01:29 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
My biggest beef is the double standard of not giving Sullinger a fair shake among some posters. Not only that, but twisting facts.

I think you are guilty of this yourself, to a large degree .

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2015, 07:01:37 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I don't know how this has turned into KO vs Sully debate. But one guy , unless there is a big trade scenario , is locked up for a few more seasons while another is looking for a big contract next

You don't trade KO and his friendly salary because you want to resign Sullinger for 14 million a season. 

 

A few more season... you mean ONE more season.

This is precisely what I'm talking about about distorting the facts.

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2015, 07:08:39 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Quote
My biggest beef is the double standard of not giving Sullinger a fair shake among some posters. Not only that, but twisting facts.

I think you are guilty of this yourself, to a large degree .

Why because I like Sullinger? I have no hidden agenda, I have been up front of why I like and don't like certain players. On why and why I don't give players more leeway than others, and I don't use falseness to present my points.

My differences with you have never been about you disliking Sullinger, but all the things you dismissed and omitted. If we disagree we disagree, but for the most part all your arguments have always been reduced to... but but but AT THE COMBINES! but but but AT THE AMATEUR GAME!

And of course, but he's FAT!

I mean, we're on a thread in which the thesis of it was that Thompson out played Sullinger when they were on the floor about 2 minutes or so together. (Uneventful 2 minutes at that) O.o

You'd recall our discussion on Sullinger's defense... I presented you with all the evidence from his rookie season, which you dismissed. Look at us now...

Anyways, my main things is not about having differing stances but how they're reached and how people reach their conclusions.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 07:24:35 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2015, 09:31:53 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Quote
My biggest beef is the double standard of not giving Sullinger a fair shake among some posters. Not only that, but twisting facts.

I think you are guilty of this yourself, to a large degree .

Why because I like Sullinger? I have no hidden agenda, I have been up front of why I like and don't like certain players. On why and why I don't give players more leeway than others, and I don't use falseness to present my points.

My differences with you have never been about you disliking Sullinger, but all the things you dismissed and omitted. If we disagree we disagree, but for the most part all your arguments have always been reduced to... but but but AT THE COMBINES! but but but AT THE AMATEUR GAME!

And of course, but he's FAT!

I mean, we're on a thread in which the thesis of it was that Thompson out played Sullinger when they were on the floor about 2 minutes or so together. (Uneventful 2 minutes at that) O.o

You'd recall our discussion on Sullinger's defense... I presented you with all the evidence from his rookie season, which you dismissed. Look at us now...

Anyways, my main things is not about having differing stances but how they're reached and how people reach their conclusions.

budweiserceltic the chances that Sully stays are slim.  He is not a true PF and not a true C.  Undersized center basically with incapability to shoot the long range jump shot/inconsistent jump shooter. 

the two things going for him are his ability to rebound the ball on the defensive end and good bbiq for a big guy. 

Another team will take him on and limit his game, which is the right thing to do.  Like if Sully was traded to the clippers, Rivers would have him play the way he did in year one. Just park himself under the basket on both ends. Shoot the open mid range.   Under CBS he is not used the right way on the offensive end, but CBS can't change Sullys game bc it can mess up the "system". 

If CBS was hired before Sully was drafted, I doubt Sully would of been chosen.  Not a great fit under CBS.  So there you go.  The team tried to make it "fit"  .  Remember also last season without Sully in the later part of the year, the Celtics were just fine. Actually pretty darn decent and thats how we made the playoffs.

We need to move on. Sound good?

Re: Trade Sully while his value is perceived to be decent
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2015, 09:53:13 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Quote
My biggest beef is the double standard of not giving Sullinger a fair shake among some posters. Not only that, but twisting facts.

I think you are guilty of this yourself, to a large degree .

Why because I like Sullinger? I have no hidden agenda, I have been up front of why I like and don't like certain players. On why and why I don't give players more leeway than others, and I don't use falseness to present my points.

My differences with you have never been about you disliking Sullinger, but all the things you dismissed and omitted. If we disagree we disagree, but for the most part all your arguments have always been reduced to... but but but AT THE COMBINES! but but but AT THE AMATEUR GAME!

And of course, but he's FAT!

I mean, we're on a thread in which the thesis of it was that Thompson out played Sullinger when they were on the floor about 2 minutes or so together. (Uneventful 2 minutes at that) O.o

You'd recall our discussion on Sullinger's defense... I presented you with all the evidence from his rookie season, which you dismissed. Look at us now...

Anyways, my main things is not about having differing stances but how they're reached and how people reach their conclusions.

budweiserceltic the chances that Sully stays are slim.  He is not a true PF and not a true C.  Undersized center basically with incapability to shoot the long range jump shot/inconsistent jump shooter. 

the two things going for him are his ability to rebound the ball on the defensive end and good bbiq for a big guy. 

Another team will take him on and limit his game, which is the right thing to do.  Like if Sully was traded to the clippers, Rivers would have him play the way he did in year one. Just park himself under the basket on both ends. Shoot the open mid range.   Under CBS he is not used the right way on the offensive end, but CBS can't change Sullys game bc it can mess up the "system". 

If CBS was hired before Sully was drafted, I doubt Sully would of been chosen.  Not a great fit under CBS.  So there you go.  The team tried to make it "fit"  .  Remember also last season without Sully in the later part of the year, the Celtics were just fine. Actually pretty darn decent and thats how we made the playoffs.

We need to move on. Sound good?

Whatever chances there are of him staying are in total control of Ainge as Sullinger is a Restricted Free Agent, it'll be up to him. That you don't like Sullinger has no bearing on what Ainge might currently feel as his value to this team.

I don't see us getting much value on him on the trade market, so all your "dump him" ideas are of no interest to me. Now if your suggestion would be for him to be part of a package for an actual upgrade, then we can talk. But for a couple of 2nd rounders or such as you've suggested would be pointless. Sullinger would be more valuable to use during the Draft and Moratorium if in the end Ainge decides he's not part of the equation. So the risk of letting him go for nothing vs. what we might game from him in dump move as you've suggested is of no value to me.

You're sadly mistaken if you think we wouldn't have drafted Sullinger with CBS here. This CBS worship is going a bit overboard with all the "fit" narrative people are making about his system. Sullinger was one of the top prospects of that draft, and as played as such even if you don't like him. We were lucky to have him at the 20s picks.

For all the Sullinger doesn't fit CBS's style, Sullinger is the player CBS is playing the most this year of the bigs, Sully is the player starting ahead of your binkie Olynyk. It was an rusty out of shape Sullinger who CBS turned to in the playoffs when Olynyk was found to be wanting. So stop projecting your ideals to what's actually happening.

As for making the playoffs last year, with the reasoning that it was the absence of Sullinger that produced it, let me repost some of the rebukes to that observation:

"Since Green was traded we went 8-8 with Sullinger. That's a 50% record, so the improvement trend was already on-going. Our loses? Seven of those loses were against playoff teams, and five being among the powerhouses: Chicago, Golden State, Hawks, Houston, Clippers.

But the fact remains that the team that's been playing without Sullinger is significantly different from a personnel standpoint to the team that Sullinger was part of prior to going down.

Considering that we had a 50% record going into his injury after the latest roster change, including winning his final ugly game against arguably the best team in the NBA at the time, the Hawks. After the trio of loses against Chicago, Atlanta, Clippers, we went 7-5 over his final twelve games, and even then we were already discussing playoff aspirations.

So this comparison about "this team" with and without Sullinger is creating a false dichotomy in the way it's being discussed, with little allowance on context while completely ignoring the upward trend the team was already enjoying prior to Sully going down for us right before the influx of additional talent."


All this to say the team was already playing better WITH Sullinger figuring as part of the rotation, and after Sullinger went down (right on the money exactly) we made the trade for Thomas, etc. which really changed the makeup of the team in the first place. So there's no real bases of comparison between a team that was winning vs the team that was losing in that particular season up to that point, other than the fact that as I've illustrated after Green was traded the team was already in an upwards trend and playing better with Sully being part of it. An overwieght Sully at that of course.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 10:00:16 PM by BudweiserCeltic »