Celtics Rank 4th in Top Young Cores

[Celtics18]

You two are so cute. 

One calls me a child, the other implies that I lack a brain.

I am sure that you have a brain, and you've been posting here too long to be a child.

What this exchange demonstrates, though, is that you are very willing to read the worst into what other people post.


For what it's worth, the scarecrow I posted was meant to refer to the straw man argument you used a few posts back.  I apologize for not being clearer.


Anyway, I try to be positive when I feel it's appropriate given the conversation.  If things were generally more negative around here, I think I'd often find myself taking the positive tack.

It seems like you have a tendency to see only the negative things that others post and take exception to those.


Example -- Marcus Smart

Some people talk about him as if he's going to be the next Celtics star.

Some people say he's just a defensive role player, or even worse, that he's Marcus Banks 2.0.

I'd argue against both positions, but chances are I'd only get a response from you regarding the former.

I like Smart.  I probably mostly agree with you on him, though.  I don't see elite superstar, but I do think he could be some kind of star depending on the circumstances he's given over the course of the next decade. 

[D.o.s.]

^ I think we all agree on Marcus Smart, and I think we're all in agreement about how much worth the 'Marcus Banks 2.0' chatter has. Namely: zero, which is why it's so frustrating to get lumped in with naysayers like that.

One thing neither of us do: lament the fact that people deign to disagree with us. Another thing: using hyperbole (and italics) in an attempt to inoculate our positions from critique.

and why would you when your analogy and emoji skills are so strong?

Are your contributions to CelticsBlog discussions usually this meaningful, or is this a special occasion?

[kozlodoev]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Slight better on offense, slightly worse on defense.

[kozlodoev]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Slight better on offense, slightly worse on defense.

Possibly. Offensively, I just seem to remember both of them looking like either world-beaters or NBDL players, and rarely anything in-between.

[Evantime34]

It's so hard to judge Smart on what he can become offensively based on his rookie season, in general point guards and centers take the longest to develop. During his rookie year I saw some flashes of great ability the issue is whether he can consistently do this in the future.

On defense he's the best celtics rookie I have ever seen.

[tarheelsxxiii]

It's so hard to judge Smart on what he can become offensively based on his rookie season, in general point guards and centers take the longest to develop. During his rookie year I saw some flashes of great ability the issue is whether he can consistently do this in the future.

On defense he's the best celtics rookie I have ever seen.

Agree it's very hard to tell offensively at this point. But he really hasn't given us a reason to believe otherwise, yet.

82% of FGA were jumpshots, he shoots it poorly, and 47% of those came 0-10 seconds into the shot-clock. Not just overkill on the attempts, but poor shooting and decision making.

28% of his close range/dunk attempts were blocked. Maybe explains the shot selection?

Offensively, he seems more productive at PG than SG - higher FG%, more assists and points, higher PER (though woeful).

Defensively, he looks to be equally successful guarding SGs and PGs, though strengths and weaknesses differ - SGs have lower FG% and fewer points and assists (confounded by position), but the differences probably aren't significant and SGs rebound better against Smart.

So, while this isn't a small sample size from a minutes perspective, I agree it needs to be taken in context as a pretty successful rookie year. I remain hopeful but only semi-optimistic.

[Smitty77]

Would someone kindly tell me where the Charlotte Hornets rank on this list?  If someone always did so and I missed it, I apologize.

Thanks,

Smitty77

[littleteapot]

Would someone kindly tell me where the Charlotte Hornets rank on this list?  If someone always did so and I missed it, I apologize.

Thanks,

Smitty77

According to the reddit post:
bucks, pelicans, jazz, celtics, 76ers, blazers, hornets, raptors, magic, pistons

Honestly I'm surprised they're that high.

[mmmmm]

I wouldn't be shocked if 1-2 players from the Celtics' bevy of youngsters take a step forward to becoming a Khris Middleton-level player in the next season or two.  All of those guys have a chance, some more than others, and we'll be suspicious about how much was due to the player and how much was due to the coach/system.

I concur very much with this.

The coach will come into play, of course, in the allocation of minutes and the lineups he puts on the floor.

I predict many arguments on these blogs as fans are disgruntled over how their personal binkies on our roster are being used or not.

An optimist on a given player will crow on how this player, getting many minutes, is emerging as a foundational piece for the future!

The jaded will of course assert that so-and-so is getting minutes only to pump up his trade value.

And at different times, either or both could be correct.

[crimson_stallion]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Slight better on offense, slightly worse on defense.

I would say MUCH better on offense, slightly worse on defense. 

Tony Allen never really had any offensive talent / skill whatsoever aside form the ability to drive and get to the basket.

Smart has three point range, can pass, can handle the ball.  Even if he never developed at all as a player, that's already a huge distinction over Tony Allen...who was really never anything more than a (really good) defensive role player.   

[M.A.]

I'd trade the whole team for Anthony Davis tbh. I love these guys, especially Smart, Crowder, and Hunter, but I'd trade every last asset we have for AD. Just sayin'.

[MBunge]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Does anyone look at Marcus as a franchise cornerstone?  If someone offered Boogie/Durant/Anthony Davis straight up for Smart, would even the most wildly optimistic homer turn that down?

For me, I look at Marcus as a guy who could become a very good player and, as such, is not someone to be thrown overboard unless it is a move that clearly makes the team better.

As for the TA comparison, Smart in his rookie year showed himself to already be a better ball handler, passer and 3 pt shooter than Tony Allen has ever been in his entire career.  If he becomes the kind of defender TA is, Smart is easily going to be a multi-time all star.  I think a better comparison might be Smart becoming some version of Derek Fisher.

Mike

[tarheelsxxiii]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Slight better on offense, slightly worse on defense.

I would say MUCH better on offense, slightly worse on defense. 

Tony Allen never really had any offensive talent / skill whatsoever aside form the ability to drive and get to the basket.

Smart has three point range, can pass, can handle the ball.  Even if he never developed at all as a player, that's already a huge distinction over Tony Allen...who was really never anything more than a (really good) defensive role player.   

That seems like a reach. I agree that Smart is more likely than not to become a better offensive player, but that isn't supported by stats at this point.

TA's rookie year was actually better than Smart's in more aspects than not, and he generally improved over time (glaring exception: 3P%). He played far fewer mins which could arguably be a confound, but because his stats remained mostly consistent throughout his career and gradually improved a bit, it seems like a fair comparison to make.

Here's the rookie comparison (Per 36 comp):

Smart: MPG=27, FG%=.37, 3P%=.33, FTA=2.5, FT%=.65, TRB=4.1, AST=4.1, STL=2, PTS=10

Allen: MPG=16, FG%=.48, 3P%=.39, FTA=4.3, FT%=.74, TRB=6.3, AST=1.8, STL=2, PTS=14

Given Allen's rookie year (albeit 1 attempt per 36), Smart's college percentage, and SL shooting, I wouldn't say Smart definitively has 3P range yet. Seems an argument can be made that he has been reliant upon 3s because he's struggling to get to the rim.

Allen was a mediocre ball-handler, but he could get to the basket. So while Smart may be more adept at getting to where he wants as a playmaker, if he's limited the advantage is significant but not huge.

Allen also excelled in transition, haven't seen that much from Smart.

Again, it's too early to tell. Just don't appear to have enough evidence yet to have any definitive answers re: Smart. I hope for the best, honestly, and I do think he'll significantly improve.

[mahcus smaht]

Marcus Smart probably has a solid Tony-Allen-like career ahead of him. As a minimum. Perhaps slightly better.

The fact we're looking at him as a franchise cornerstone is slightly depressing.

Slight better on offense, slightly worse on defense.

I would say MUCH better on offense, slightly worse on defense. 

Tony Allen never really had any offensive talent / skill whatsoever aside form the ability to drive and get to the basket.

Smart has three point range, can pass, can handle the ball.  Even if he never developed at all as a player, that's already a huge distinction over Tony Allen...who was really never anything more than a (really good) defensive role player.   

That seems like a reach. I agree that Smart is more likely than not to become a better offensively player, but that isn't supported by stats at this point.

TA's rookie year was actually better than Smart's in more aspects, and they generally increased over time (glaring exception: 3P%). He played far fewer mins which could arguably be a confound, but the fact that his stats remained mostly consistent through his career and gradually improved a bit, it seems like a fair comparison to make.

Here's the rookie comparison (Per 36 comp):

Smart: MPG=27, FG%=.37, 3P%=.33, FTA=2.5, FT%=.65, TRB=4.1, AST=4.1, STL=2, PTS=10

Allen: MPG=16, FG%=.48, 3P%=.39, FTA=4.3, FT%=.74, TRB=6.3, AST=1.8, STL=2, PTS=14

Given Allen's rookie year (albeit 1 attempt per 36), Smart's college percentage, and SL shooting, I wouldn't say Smart definitively has 3P range yet. Seems an argument can be made that he has been reliant upon 3s because he's struggling to get to the rim.

Allen was a mediocre ball-handler, but he could get to the basket. So while Smart may be more adept at getting to where he wants as a playmaker, if he's limited the advantage is significant but not huge.

Allen also excelled in transition, haven't seen that much from Smart.

Again, it's too early to tell. Just don't appear to have enough evidence yet to have any definitive answers re: Smart. I hope for the best, honestly, and I do think he'll significantly improve.

Pre injury (Achilles I think it was but it may have been ACL) TA was a very promising player and even after losing much if his explosiveness he started and was a very important part of the Memphis grizzlies for a few years.