Author Topic: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier  (Read 26045 times)

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Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2015, 07:41:10 PM »

Offline BornReady

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May be ainge thinks rozier is some how better than smart

Smart had trouble playmaking and guarding quicker guards this season
It may be rookie troubles or ainge thinks he won't develop much
Not sure we would get much for smart as ainge is aggressively shopping him

Rozier is a similar type of player to Bradley and Thomas

If ainge wanted to tank next year and ensure we get a lottery pick
We should trade Thomas and Bradley for assets
Then give more playing time for our young players


Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2015, 08:14:05 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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yeah ok... agree to disagree.   I expected more from Smart.  Many people here did too (I've seen the threads).  I don't think we anticipated that his rookie numbers would be on a par with rookie Iman Shumpert.  That was disappointing.  If you expected Iman Shumpert numbers, good for you.  I expected more.  Anyways...   The only way we're trading him is in a trade package for a much better prospect (noel/embiid) or in a trade package for a star (Melo/Cousins)...  None of that is likely to happen... so whatever.   Here's hoping Smart makes strides in year 2.   He's got the mental makeup that you can't rule him out.   He's a great defender.  HOpefully he can develop into a competent offensive player... right now he's got a long way to go to even be as good as prime Tony Allen.

Offensively he's already better than Tony Allen, TA sucks, he has low BBIQ and is a train wreck on offense. I'll take Smart over him every time.
People like to say that Smart is better offensively than Tony Allen.  Few actually look into it.

Smart rookie shooting:  36%/33%/64%
Allen rookie shooting:  48%/39%/74%

Dunno, man.

Disclosure: I don't really have a horse in this race. I like MS, I see potential, but there are Q's.

LarBrd33 I usually look to you for some good (often cynical) insight but, yeah, I looked into this one.  Smart at age 20 on a (bad) playoff team shot .462% eFG% v. TA at 23 shooting .491%. 

It doesn't make sense to cite TA's rookie 3PT%, he shot .4 a game. In his second year at 24, he shot worse on 3's than MS.  4.1 of Smart's 7.1 shots a game were 3's. He didn't come here at 19 as a dead eye 3 point shooter, he was asked to fill a role. That he's close to TA is good.

Playmaking also counts as offense, so Smart's 3.1 assists and 2.5 A/T ratio look a lot better than TA's .8 assists .8 A/T ratio.  They're different players but we gasp every time TA dribbles and based on ball handling already displayed and combine #'s you can't compare MS and TA, Smart better already.  Tony Allen also can't really shoot and has never averaged even 1 more FGA per game than MS averaged his rookie year (7.1). TA is limited; Smart is just unknown.

TA may be as good as Smart ever gets, but those 3 shooting percentages don't do it for me.
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Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2015, 08:20:52 PM »

Offline Jonny CC

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yeah ok... agree to disagree.   I expected more from Smart.  Many people here did too (I've seen the threads).  I don't think we anticipated that his rookie numbers would be on a par with rookie Iman Shumpert.  That was disappointing.  If you expected Iman Shumpert numbers, good for you.  I expected more.  Anyways...   The only way we're trading him is in a trade package for a much better prospect (noel/embiid) or in a trade package for a star (Melo/Cousins)...  None of that is likely to happen... so whatever.   Here's hoping Smart makes strides in year 2.   He's got the mental makeup that you can't rule him out.   He's a great defender.  HOpefully he can develop into a competent offensive player... right now he's got a long way to go to even be as good as prime Tony Allen.

Offensively he's already better than Tony Allen, TA sucks, he has low BBIQ and is a train wreck on offense. I'll take Smart over him every time.
People like to say that Smart is better offensively than Tony Allen.  Few actually look into it.

Smart rookie shooting:  36%/33%/64%
Allen rookie shooting:  48%/39%/74%

Dunno, man.

You are right...."Few actually look into it" and neither did you. You looked into it and then cherry-picked the stats to fit your argument.

SMART rookie - 7.8 pts, 3.3 rebs, 3.1 assts, .3 blks, 1.5 stls
ALLEN rookie - 6.4 pts, 2.9 rebs, .8 assts, .3 blks, 1 stl

Maybe you dunno, but I do...Smart > Allen
Better luck next time. 
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Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2015, 08:53:14 PM »

Offline Greyman

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One of the things I feel certain about with MS (and AB), is that they are never going to be consistent/reliable  points providers like IT. They will have games where they score well but they will both have nights when they barely trouble the scoreboard attendant.

So What? They do a great job on defence, they offer other offensive value, they play their hardest all the time, they have become leaders and work well in the CBS system. There is probably more upside to both if you want to list it. Ultimately though (and this is why I have used both even though they are different) that lack of points against quality teams is their shortcoming. I like both but think one at least is marked for the exit door. Smart is the most common name mentioned ATM but AB has been earlier and I don't think DA likes him that much that he wouldn't move if the right offer came along.

Both are valuable players who could play a role on a contending team. Both are better than Dellevadova IMO. Getting the jigsaw right though means one of those pieces probably has to go.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2015, 09:10:03 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Is Rozier a good enough passer to be a full time PG?
Without somebody (like Smart) alongside him to help shoulder the load in the backcourt?

Rozier is a better pg than Smart is.  Smart is a slightly undersized sg with average handles and first step.  Terrific defender. A tad more skilled version of Tony Allen

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2015, 09:25:37 PM »

Offline Mass_1081

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yeah ok... agree to disagree.   I expected more from Smart.  Many people here did too (I've seen the threads).  I don't think we anticipated that his rookie numbers would be on a par with rookie Iman Shumpert.  That was disappointing.  If you expected Iman Shumpert numbers, good for you.  I expected more.  Anyways...   The only way we're trading him is in a trade package for a much better prospect (noel/embiid) or in a trade package for a star (Melo/Cousins)...  None of that is likely to happen... so whatever.   Here's hoping Smart makes strides in year 2.   He's got the mental makeup that you can't rule him out.   He's a great defender.  HOpefully he can develop into a competent offensive player... right now he's got a long way to go to even be as good as prime Tony Allen.

Offensively he's already better than Tony Allen, TA sucks, he has low BBIQ and is a train wreck on offense. I'll take Smart over him every time.
People like to say that Smart is better offensively than Tony Allen.  Few actually look into it.

Smart rookie shooting:  36%/33%/64%
Allen rookie shooting:  48%/39%/74%

Dunno, man.

  This is really misleading, Allen took what .5 threes per game? Allen offensive game was three feat in during his time with the Celtics, mostly a slasher. There is now way Allen was going to shoot at a poor percentage the way he played. Not saying Smart is a good shooter, but when most of your fg attempts are threes your fg% is going to be a lot lower. Ryan Anderson is a very good shooter, but struggles to shoot over 40%. I'm not sure why exactly Smarts use % was so low and why he attempted to become a pick and pop shooter, but hopefully that expperiment is over and Smart plays a little like he did in school.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2015, 09:31:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2015, 09:32:18 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Is Rozier a good enough passer to be a full time PG?
Without somebody (like Smart) alongside him to help shoulder the load in the backcourt?

Rozier is a better pg than Smart is.  Smart is a slightly undersized sg with average handles and first step.  Terrific defender. A tad more skilled version of Tony Allen
The passing has to be a concern doesnt it?

I think in a perfect world, both improve their shots significantly and they both play guard.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2015, 09:33:00 PM »

Offline Mass_1081

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Is Rozier a good enough passer to be a full time PG?
Without somebody (like Smart) alongside him to help shoulder the load in the backcourt?

Rozier is a better pg than Smart is.  Smart is a slightly undersized sg with average handles and first step.  Terrific defender. A tad more skilled version of Tony Allen

 My this is dumb also, how many games have you actually watched Rozier play. He was a two his freshman season and only took over handling pg duties because their starting pg left the team. He averaged three assists and didn't show the same court vision Smart did at school. People need to stop comparing him with Allen, they are nothing alike. Smart took on a totally different role this year, he had a lot higher usg% in school, this kid gets way too much crap. Go back and watch any game and tally up how many times either Turner or Bradley passed the ball off to Smart. I doubt you even need one hand.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2015, 09:34:12 PM »

Offline Cman

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Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2015, 09:57:37 PM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

Ah but you have to admit, on and off the court, and as a player, Marcus is alot Smarter than Allen! :o
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Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2015, 10:06:46 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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May be ainge thinks rozier is some how better than smart

Smart had trouble playmaking and guarding quicker guards this season
It may be rookie troubles or ainge thinks he won't develop much
Not sure we would get much for smart as ainge is aggressively shopping him

Rozier is a similar type of player to Bradley and Thomas

If ainge wanted to tank next year and ensure we get a lottery pick
We should trade Thomas and Bradley for assets
Then give more playing time for our young players

You guys are really over-reacting. Like did you even watch the games ? Smart didn't really have trouble play-making. When he was given the chance to control the ball, he actually passed quite well. And he certainly didn't have trouble guarding anyone. An elite offensive player who's at the top of his game beats an elite defender every time. That doesn't make that defender any less elite.

Ainge isn't "aggressively shopping" Smart. He's showing a willingness to include him in a deal for a major building block (I.E. Noel, Cousins). He's not out there selling him off to the highest bidder.

I would suggest paying attention to what the people without the ball are doing the next time you watch a game. Smart had a VERY limited offensive role on this team last year. CBS camped him out at the three point line and had him working on his jumper with open shots in game situations. There was hardly any plays ever run for him, he hardly ever handled the ball, he had a pretty rough ankle injury that lingered all year and he still managed to get better and better as the season went on. As we saw in the Cavs series, he's much more explosive than he seemed in the regular season.

You wanna be disappointed in his ROOKIE year? Fine, it's your opinion and I respect that. But just like that CB8863 guy, that's just ridiculous. Smart is easily the most valuable player we have trade wise , Danny is not  "aggressively shopping" him, and he's only on the move out of here is a blockbuster deal comes about. Which we do have the assets to make happen, BTw.

Sorry of that came off as harsh or aggressive. Been a crazy day for a C's fan today.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2015, 10:13:21 PM »

Offline Jonny CC

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So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

You are a spin machine.  Now you are trying to compare Smart (now) to Allen in his prime?  You tried to argue that Allen had a better ROOKIE year than Allen.  That's just wrong.   
And, Smart was better offensively than Bass in his rookie year too.
Before a game on Christmas against the Pacers, Bird told Chuck Person that he had a present for him. During the game, Bird shot a 3-pointer in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry F!#*ing Christmas!" and then the shot went in.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2015, 10:15:02 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Is Rozier a good enough passer to be a full time PG?
Without somebody (like Smart) alongside him to help shoulder the load in the backcourt?

Rozier is a better pg than Smart is.  Smart is a slightly undersized sg with average handles and first step.  Terrific defender. A tad more skilled version of Tony Allen

Do you realize that you've now said "Rozier is a better PG than Smart", compared Hunter to R. Allen and Redick, and Mickey to Taj Gibson? This just might be the greatest draft in franchise history.

Your statement on Rozier is false. He's not a better PG. He's an average ballhandler, who looks for his shot a lot. He's more of a Tony Delk type, in that he has good length and a scorers mentality. He actually has some good herky jerky moves, which he uses to attack the basket. I do like that he showed significant improvement from his freshman to sophomore season, is fearless, attacks the rim, is very active defensively, and played for a good coach.

Re: Source: Celtics will continue shopping Smart after getting Rozier
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2015, 10:53:01 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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So we are cherry picking smart's mediocre three point shooting to highlight why he was a better offensive player than Allen?   Allen got to the hoop efficiently. In allens prime he averaged more points.  There shouldn't be certainty that smart is better offensively.  A less efficient higher volume 3-point shooter, perhaps?  All around offense?   No.  This is like suggesting Kyle Korver was a better offensive player than Michael Jordan by comparing their 3 point shooting.  That's exaggerated, of course... But when measuring offense shouldnt we go with the guy who scores more and does it more efficiently?  Are you pretending that smart was better offensively than Brandon bass too?

Are we cherry picking Allen's stats to make it seem like he's a better offensive player than Smart? I think you are. You highlight TA's "39%" 3pt shooting his rookie year but fail to mention how he played less minutes than Smart did this season and shot WAY less of them. Oh, and the fact that he's got a broken jumper, is a career 27% 3pt shooter and has had seasons where he shot less than 20% from that range. It's not debatable, Smart is a better shooter right now than TA has ever been.

And really, you said " In Allen's prime he averaged more points". So in TA's prime he managed more than 10 points a game once. Your really comparing a guys best seasons in his prime to a guy in his rookie year? That's insane. I get that you hate Smart, but that's ridiculous. Smart averaged just about 10 points a game after the Rondo trade AS A ROOKIE. You can't compare a guys prime years against another guys rookie year and say "Look! He averaged more points! TA is the better offensive player!" Because it's not a fair comparison.

But what I really wanna know is why your just ignoring the context of his stat line? You say he can't drive to the hoop but he clearly showed he can, especially toward the end of the season when the ankle started to improve. Have you ever played basketball? You can't just drive to the hoop whenever you get passed the ball, it just doesn't work that way. Occasionally you can get a pass on the weak side and have one man to beat on the way to the rack, but most of the time drives are set up for via screens and picks that create driving lanes for the ball-handler. When your not a primary ball-handler, you don't get those opportunities. When your the 4th or 5th option, you won't have many opportunities to generate stats. If your disappointed with Smarts stat line, be disappointed in CBS for choosing to bring him along slowly instead of making him a featured option and playing through the bumps. Smart can, has, and will continue being able to drive to the hoop and get to the line. Just because he had limited chances to do so last season, and struggled when first returning from the ankle, doesn't make that any less true.

The only advantage TA has on Smart offensively is that he's more athletic. But in just about every other facet from shooting to passing to moving without the ball, free throw shooting to basketball IQ Smart is ALREADY a better offensive player than TA is, and at their same ages he's light years better. Even as a defender Smart is a much smarter, more instinctual and better defender than TA was at the same age with the same type of physical gifts.

You can say "I like Smart, he's a good defensive role player", but it's pretty obvious you don't. Idk, maybe it's just your boundless pessimism. But still, you can't compare Smarts stats as a rookie to TA's in his prime as if Smart at 20 years old will never develop and is the player he'll be forever right now, especially when it doesn't even support your argument and takes absolutely no consideration of context. You post here enough that I know you watch a lot of basketball, but sometimes it seems like your totally ignoring what you see on the court and looking solely at stat lines.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:04:41 PM by BDeCosta26 »