To Everyone Who Can't Understand Why Many of Us are Angry and/or Perplexed

[BudweiserCeltic]

I still think taking rozier was too big of a reach.  Woulda proffered dekkker to see if he develops into anything or rj hunter. 

Ask yourself, "Why do I think it was a reach?".   If the answer is:  Because all the mock drafts I read on the internet tell me so, then look no farther than the last part of your next sentence:  "Woulda pr(ef)erred ... rj hunter."

One of my favorite parts of the draft every year is watching all the people - fans and media figures alike - who buy so thoroughly into the pre-draft speculation and mock drafting that they forget it has no direct relationship whatsoever with the actual draft, so when the draft inevitably differs from the mock consensus, they breathlessly conclude that The Draft Has Gone Wrong.

Mock consensus is just that - the consensus of a bunch of fantasy drafters.  It's not the actual opinions of the teams, it's what a bunch of people outside the process think their opinions ought to be.  And all the rumors describing this constant flux of "who's rising, who's falling" are even more bogus.  Unless someone can remind me how far Cauley-Stein "plummeted down the board" last night.

Post H.O.F.

[Smartacus]

I put out a post last night that was condeming the negativity because the can reaction just felt imballanced. We drafted 4 really good players who all have chances to crack the rotation, I know it's rough that with so many rumors floating around that it seemed like the only way we could fail was to actually make each of our picks in each of their slots, but I think several of us had prepared for this scenario weeks ago.

I get why so many of you are angry/perplexed but from the other side many of us that follow draft news year round didn't by into the hype that was attempting to paint unrealistic scenarios. Trading into the top 3 with our assets?  Poaching all of the great talent that fell to the 9-12 range? Never seemed like any team would allow it.

As for the picks themselves, not for purposes of banging my own drum but to illustrate my lack of surprise at the picks in my mock I posted here on cb a few weeks back...

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=78620.msg1901347#msg1901347

 I had us taking Rozier at 33 and Mickey at 28. I wiffed on us taking Justin Hunter but I'm actually more excited for RJ Hunter.

Rosier is a classic Danny Player with national championship expierience the mocks had him severly undervalued imo. Mickey is an attempt to plug a massive hole with temporary fix until a better option can be obtained. RJ Hunter could be a Korver type eventually and he's the best shooter to come through Boston since Ray Allen.

I can accept why many of you are angry/perplexed but I hope you all can understand why many of us aren't.

[kozlodoev]

I still think taking rozier was too big of a reach.  Woulda proffered dekkker to see if he develops into anything or rj hunter. 

Ainge addressed Rozier on SportsHub today morning. He said they felt he'd have been off the board within 2 to 6 picks, so there's that.

The fact that we got RJ Hunter regardless should tell you it's not an exact science. Would you have been happier if the two picks were reversed? It's the same outcome ultimately.

[SHAQATTACK]

I'm more amazed than anything

Danny can laid so many turds in one night.

And get away with it .

[Big333223]

I think a lot of the frustration is a result of, as other have said, the crazy rumors that were flying around pre draft. If we're being honest, there was no way the Celtics ever had a shot at Okafor and yet yesterday afternoon I was asking myself "Gee, do I even want Okafor?" It's crazy. I'm willing to wait and see what Ainge does in the free agent/trade market.

[Scintan]

Running around telling everyone that you want to trade up...

Are you even serious?

I really cannot believe some of what I am reading tonight.

So, to follow this up... Ainge and ownership have both acknowledged doing just that.

[Scintan]

I think a lot of the frustration is a result of, as other have said, the crazy rumors that were flying around pre draft. If we're being honest, there was no way the Celtics ever had a shot at Okafor and yet yesterday afternoon I was asking myself "Gee, do I even want Okafor?" It's crazy. I'm willing to wait and see what Ainge does in the free agent/trade market.

Just yesterday, it was about people not being willing to trade Smart for Okafor or Embid. Today, it's about the team not having any shot to get to that point in the draft.  Consistency is not a requirement for posting. 

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

There was SO much Celtics chatter from reporters, and so many rumors, not to mention Celtics brass talking a big game in recent months (looking at you, Wyc), that it was hard to believe there WOULDN'T be something big happening on draft night. Sure, there are always rumors, and they each need to be taken with a big grain of salt, but this was it, right? Tonight was the night SOMETHING wonderful was finally going to happen. I mean, how many offseasons and trade deadlines can Danny go without making a big splash?

I think in a rebuilding process like the one Ainge has undertaken

* Where Ainge refuses to bottom out and build via high draft picks
* Where the team has no established star talent (like Pierce last time around)
* When the team has no clear up-and-coming star talent
* When Ainge acquires as many quality role players as possible to win-now with a limited squad
* When Ainge stockpiles future picks

For any team in a situation like this, I think that team is:

(1) most likely going to be facing a 4-6 year rebuild.
(2) is going to be hunting deals every summer and every trade deadline for those 4-6 years and 90+% of the time they are going to fall flat. Especially in the early years when the roster is at it's thinnest.
(3) they will come close to deals on several occasions but just be a little short in their trade proposals and lose out to someone else. It'll be heart-wrenching at times.
(4) the rebuild won't fully take off until Ainge manages to acquire a genuine star. Until then, a lot of teeing-and-tooing around. After that, there will be much more purpose and direction. Ainge will be able to attract other big name players (FAs) to the team.



I think these are just the types of things we should expect with this type of rebuild.

We have had some quiet trade deadlines, drafts and offseasons already ... and to be honest, I think we'll have a couple more before Ainge finds a way to make a splash with his collection of trade assets.

I think we should try to accept that in this type of rebuild -- progress will be slower in the early stages and there will be moments where things stagnate and fail to take shape. That there will be several frustrating trade deadlines, drafts and free agency periods. That this team is still looking for a direction and that it won't truly find that direction until Ainge can find a way to turn those assets into a genuine star talent who will help create some of that direction.

I think this is just the way of life for rebuilds like this. They're ugly. Annoying. Irritating. Uncomfortable. And carry on for much longer than we hope or expect.

Until that singular moment when things change. And often that moment is hard to see in the distance. You just know that at some point the right opportunity is going to be there ... and Ainge is nothing if not a fantastic opportunist.

... which is also why I prefer building through high draft picks vs what Ainge is doing. Acquiring top talents, individual development and team building. Young players you can really get excited about. Guys with All-Star talent. Visible progress year-on-year as those young guys improve and the talent base grows considerably with each draft.

Thank you for a reasonable and well-thought-out response from "the other side" of this debate.

I'm still processing everything—all the emotions, and all the information about the players we drafted. I'm sure my initial reaction was mostly knee-jerk, and I understand that if Danny truly felt Rozier was BPA at 16, then he did the right thing drafting him.

So, all of your reasoning above makes total sense to me. Yet I also wonder if our expectations were artificially raised—not just by the media, but by many people associated with the Celtics: Danny's predraft talk about aggressively trying to move up (probably should've kept his lips sealed on that until after the draft), and how so many Celtics fans and beat reporters have been pumping up the value of all the team's assets (draft picks and young players) over the past year.

It's like the Celtics are in basketball limbo right now—severely unbalanced roster, with no stars (or anything even close to it). And if all the unfounded rumors of the past week and the lack of draft-night trades are any indication, there's seemingly little to no chance of acquiring anyone truly good in free agency or via trade, because no one around the league thinks that highly of any of our players.

I'm probably just being impatient and unnecessarily pessimistic. Only time will tell the true value of these picks. And I actually was trying to not get my hopes too high, remembering the relative quiet of recent offseasons and trade deadlines. Obviously that didn't work.

Ah, well. As the kids like to say, "What are you gonna do?"

[D.o.s.]

[JHTruth]

The only valid complaint someone can make is that we reached on Hozier.  I would buy that.  He went much later in mocks.  If you think Boston should have traded down and got an addition asset, I can understand why you'd be frustrated.  Draftexpress, for example, had Hozier going #30 and RJ Hunter going #23, so I can see why someone would be annoyed that we took Hozier #16... but may have gotten a steal with Hunter at #28... though nbadraft.net had Hunter going #32 so maybe that frustrated people too.   Now that the disappointment of "not trading up" has subsided, we can look at this clearly.

#1 - We don't really know how accurate those mocks are.  Who cares what draftexpress says.  Perhaps Hozier was higher on real boards... perhaps Danny just saw what apparently every other team saw... the picks in the 16-30 range were weak compared to the stuff in the Top 8.   Ultimately, most of the guys taken after 8 (and at least a couple taken in the top eight) will probably be scrubs, so might as well take the scrubs you like.

#2 - We made our bed months ago.   Even if it was accidental... most of us, myself included, were on board with the playoff push.  I said at the time that we were making a major sacrifice in the process... losing out on a top pick.  I said at the time that we were setting ourselves up for a massive curb-stomping by the Hawks or the Cavs.  But I was still on board with it... because I saw it as more about Brad Stevens and free agency.  Brad needed to keep the kids committed to his vision.  We needed to keep Brad committed to the Celtics (the threat of him leaving for the NCAA is real)... and we needed to put ourselves in a good position heading into free agency.    Keeping Brad engaged was why I rooted for us to make the playoffs.  We knew what that was going to mean, though... we'd get swept, miss out on a top pick and get stuck drafting in no-man's land.   So why would anyone possibly be upset about the inevitable?  For months, some of us have been sharing facts about how difficult it is to trade up into the Top 10.  We saw what it took in the past... you can give up #14 + #21 and maybe move up a couple spots.  But how much could you realistically expect us to move up with a meh #16 pick and an almost worthless #28 pick?    You couldn't bank on that.   This wasn't our draft.  We were bystanders.

Whether or not this is a "failure" will not be determined by draft day... it will be determined by how successful we are in free agency.  If we strike out, it's time to properly panic.  But you can't be mad about this.  You should have been mad about it in April... or don't be mad about it at all.  We sacrificed a top prospect in favor of Brad Stevens.  I'll roll with Stevens and hope we add our talent elsewhere.

This offseason is setting up to be a disaster.

Look there's a reason people advocate tanking. It's not that we love losing, want to see us suck, etc. It's the only way the Boston Celtics are going to get into contention. If Danny and Wyc and Co. think they're going to salvage this offseason in free agency, Danny should be fired, and Wyc and Co. should sell the team. We NEVER get first-tier free agents. EVER. You talk about how difficult it is to move up into the top 10 historically, what about how hard it is to attract top FA's to Boston? Already we see two of our alleged top targets are off the board!! LMA is going to LA and Love is staying in Cleveland. A franchise with zero historical success in FA also has no other stars to entice them here. When Monroe heads to NY to play with Melo, we're going to throw the farm at Butler in groveling, humiliating fashion only to see him go elsewhere. Getting lottery picks that we either keep to become stars on our team or package for disgruntled stars is the only way this team has a chance and we blew it to what, get out butts handed to us by LeBron? It's insane what this franchise is doing..

[D.o.s.]

Re: free agency, Past Performance does not predict future results -- and KG was, essentially, a free agent when he came from Minny. At least, that's how it has been recast in popular culture.

Also, if Love is staying in Cleveland and LMA is bound for Los Angeles, and you know this for a fact, I would like to see some sources confirming it.

[jpd985]

The only valid complaint someone can make is that we reached on Hozier.  I would buy that.  He went much later in mocks.  If you think Boston should have traded down and got an addition asset, I can understand why you'd be frustrated.  Draftexpress, for example, had Hozier going #30 and RJ Hunter going #23, so I can see why someone would be annoyed that we took Hozier #16... but may have gotten a steal with Hunter at #28... though nbadraft.net had Hunter going #32 so maybe that frustrated people too.   Now that the disappointment of "not trading up" has subsided, we can look at this clearly.

#1 - We don't really know how accurate those mocks are.  Who cares what draftexpress says.  Perhaps Hozier was higher on real boards... perhaps Danny just saw what apparently every other team saw... the picks in the 16-30 range were weak compared to the stuff in the Top 8.   Ultimately, most of the guys taken after 8 (and at least a couple taken in the top eight) will probably be scrubs, so might as well take the scrubs you like.

#2 - We made our bed months ago.   Even if it was accidental... most of us, myself included, were on board with the playoff push.  I said at the time that we were making a major sacrifice in the process... losing out on a top pick.  I said at the time that we were setting ourselves up for a massive curb-stomping by the Hawks or the Cavs.  But I was still on board with it... because I saw it as more about Brad Stevens and free agency.  Brad needed to keep the kids committed to his vision.  We needed to keep Brad committed to the Celtics (the threat of him leaving for the NCAA is real)... and we needed to put ourselves in a good position heading into free agency.    Keeping Brad engaged was why I rooted for us to make the playoffs.  We knew what that was going to mean, though... we'd get swept, miss out on a top pick and get stuck drafting in no-man's land.   So why would anyone possibly be upset about the inevitable?  For months, some of us have been sharing facts about how difficult it is to trade up into the Top 10.  We saw what it took in the past... you can give up #14 + #21 and maybe move up a couple spots.  But how much could you realistically expect us to move up with a meh #16 pick and an almost worthless #28 pick?    You couldn't bank on that.   This wasn't our draft.  We were bystanders.

Whether or not this is a "failure" will not be determined by draft day... it will be determined by how successful we are in free agency.  If we strike out, it's time to properly panic.  But you can't be mad about this.  You should have been mad about it in April... or don't be mad about it at all.  We sacrificed a top prospect in favor of Brad Stevens.  I'll roll with Stevens and hope we add our talent elsewhere.

This offseason is setting up to be a disaster.

Look there's a reason people advocate tanking. It's not that we love losing, want to see us suck, etc. It's the only way the Boston Celtics are going to get into contention. If Danny and Wyc and Co. think they're going to salvage this offseason in free agency, Danny should be fired, and Wyc and Co. should sell the team. We NEVER get first-tier free agents. EVER. You talk about how difficult it is to move up into the top 10 historically, what about how hard it is to attract top FA's to Boston? Already we see two of our alleged top targets are off the board!! LMA is going to LA and Love is staying in Cleveland. A franchise with zero historical success in FA also has no other stars to entice them here. When Monroe heads to NY to play with Melo, we're going to throw the farm at Butler in groveling, humiliating fashion only to see him go elsewhere. Getting lottery picks that we either keep to become stars on our team or package for disgruntled stars is the only way this team has a chance and we blew it to what, get out butts handed to us by LeBron? It's insane what this franchise is doing..

Tanking has never worked out for us either.

[JHTruth]

Re: free agency, Past Performance does not predict future results -- and KG was, essentially, a free agent when he came from Minny. At least, that's how it has been recast in popular culture.

Also, if Love is staying in Cleveland and LMA is bound for Los Angeles, and you know this for a fact, I would like to see some sources confirming it.

I'm just reading the tea leaves. All you have to do is Google either of those names to see what I mean..

[JHTruth]

Re: free agency, Past Performance does not predict future results -- and KG was, essentially, a free agent when he came from Minny. At least, that's how it has been recast in popular culture.

Also, if Love is staying in Cleveland and LMA is bound for Los Angeles, and you know this for a fact, I would like to see some sources confirming it.

Cmon, when you have to use KG (who we traded AlJeff and GG plus a mess of other assets for) as an example of a FA coming here, then you're making my point for me..

[JHTruth]

The only valid complaint someone can make is that we reached on Hozier.  I would buy that.  He went much later in mocks.  If you think Boston should have traded down and got an addition asset, I can understand why you'd be frustrated.  Draftexpress, for example, had Hozier going #30 and RJ Hunter going #23, so I can see why someone would be annoyed that we took Hozier #16... but may have gotten a steal with Hunter at #28... though nbadraft.net had Hunter going #32 so maybe that frustrated people too.   Now that the disappointment of "not trading up" has subsided, we can look at this clearly.

#1 - We don't really know how accurate those mocks are.  Who cares what draftexpress says.  Perhaps Hozier was higher on real boards... perhaps Danny just saw what apparently every other team saw... the picks in the 16-30 range were weak compared to the stuff in the Top 8.   Ultimately, most of the guys taken after 8 (and at least a couple taken in the top eight) will probably be scrubs, so might as well take the scrubs you like.

#2 - We made our bed months ago.   Even if it was accidental... most of us, myself included, were on board with the playoff push.  I said at the time that we were making a major sacrifice in the process... losing out on a top pick.  I said at the time that we were setting ourselves up for a massive curb-stomping by the Hawks or the Cavs.  But I was still on board with it... because I saw it as more about Brad Stevens and free agency.  Brad needed to keep the kids committed to his vision.  We needed to keep Brad committed to the Celtics (the threat of him leaving for the NCAA is real)... and we needed to put ourselves in a good position heading into free agency.    Keeping Brad engaged was why I rooted for us to make the playoffs.  We knew what that was going to mean, though... we'd get swept, miss out on a top pick and get stuck drafting in no-man's land.   So why would anyone possibly be upset about the inevitable?  For months, some of us have been sharing facts about how difficult it is to trade up into the Top 10.  We saw what it took in the past... you can give up #14 + #21 and maybe move up a couple spots.  But how much could you realistically expect us to move up with a meh #16 pick and an almost worthless #28 pick?    You couldn't bank on that.   This wasn't our draft.  We were bystanders.

Whether or not this is a "failure" will not be determined by draft day... it will be determined by how successful we are in free agency.  If we strike out, it's time to properly panic.  But you can't be mad about this.  You should have been mad about it in April... or don't be mad about it at all.  We sacrificed a top prospect in favor of Brad Stevens.  I'll roll with Stevens and hope we add our talent elsewhere.

This offseason is setting up to be a disaster.

Look there's a reason people advocate tanking. It's not that we love losing, want to see us suck, etc. It's the only way the Boston Celtics are going to get into contention. If Danny and Wyc and Co. think they're going to salvage this offseason in free agency, Danny should be fired, and Wyc and Co. should sell the team. We NEVER get first-tier free agents. EVER. You talk about how difficult it is to move up into the top 10 historically, what about how hard it is to attract top FA's to Boston? Already we see two of our alleged top targets are off the board!! LMA is going to LA and Love is staying in Cleveland. A franchise with zero historical success in FA also has no other stars to entice them here. When Monroe heads to NY to play with Melo, we're going to throw the farm at Butler in groveling, humiliating fashion only to see him go elsewhere. Getting lottery picks that we either keep to become stars on our team or package for disgruntled stars is the only way this team has a chance and we blew it to what, get out butts handed to us by LeBron? It's insane what this franchise is doing..

Tanking has never worked out for us either.

Sure it has. Remember when we turned the 5 pick into Ray Allen?