Speculation: Ainge wants both Cousins and Love

[PhoSita]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2015-06-24/demarcus-cousins-sacramento-kings-trade-report-rumors-george-karl

Your team really needs Cousins and has all the right assets! You can package those two mid-first round picks and that one onerous contract for the best offensive center in the NBA! Just throw in that one pick the Nets or Knicks or Lakers owe you! Just kick in that 2014 top-10 pick who you were a little disappointed with last season!

^ Perfect

[Chief Macho]

You guys really like torturing yourselves.   Prepare to be underwhelmed again.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Hard to give two high usage big men the touches they want and need to fully utilize their talents.

Two high usage players in a roster is hardly a problem. It's when it's 3+ that it might become an issue. But two players? Na'.

It's when the 2 high usage guys are both bigs. That is more difficult.

Than say an inside-outside combo that lends itself more naturally to a two man game.

Edit: I don't think it is a factor in convincing both players to team up. I do think it's likely to be a problem in getting full value out of both guys once they are here though. Cousins had pretty much the entire offense run through him in Sacramento. Kevin Love had similar situation in Minnesota. It'll be hard to keep both guys involved at that often when playing together. Often it'll be one guy with the other guy off the ball.

I can see the point from a "full value standpoint", but at the same time I think Love has much a perimeter game to make it work, and Cousins can operate from the mid-range as well. So this is not really about two bigs fighting for inside work and it becoming a problem, like say Monroe and Drummond to go a bit to the extremes.

Let's take Golden State this year for example, you had Thompson taking 17 shots in a really deep team (in just 31 minutes of play) and Curry about the same in about the same playing time. There low shot attempts more indicative of blowouts (lack of playing time) than opportunities, and again this from a deep team. That's about how many shot attempts Love was getting in more playing time while in Minnesota and the same with Cousins.

We can go with the locals, Pierce and Walker and how much usage they got while playing together, and those guys put even more shots than these guys... of course they played a lot more minutes, but bigs in general have their minutes more controlled anyways.

So I think you're mixing things unnecessarily. If your definition is based on "playing through them", then there's no combo of star players that will satisfy the dilemma you're presenting. If it's a matter of giving players their touches and what not, then I don't think that will be a problem at all, and there shouldn't be a problem with effectiveness considering the perimeter/post options both of these guys are able to present with a varied scale of skill respectively.

The real x-factor in all of this is Thomas and Bradley to a lesser extent. Those two could become a problem if the touches aren't getting there.

But I really don't see much of a problem with Love-Cousins pairing in particular in the context you're presenting.

[BDeCosta26]

https://twitter.com/xOrtiz4x/status/613773421470699520

"Boston Celtics offering Marcus Smart/Jared Sullinger/Gerald Wallace/#16/#28/multiple future 1st round picks for DeMarcus Cousins."

this is interesting...wonder what Kings think of this...

If you're boston you HAVE to offer that.   We're on the verge of a cap space boom.  If you did this trade, you'd have enough cap room to sign at least one more max contract player to play with Cousins (Love?  Aldridge?) and if we succeed in dumping Bradley we'd have enough cap space to bring in TWO max contract guys to put next to Cousins.

Then next year the cap 20 mil and you can sign Max Contract #4.... DUrant?
Then the year after that the cap jumps 20 mil more and you can sign max Contract #5.

All those middling assets make a nice hill of beans... but I'd take one gold goose over all of em.

i agree.  i think it's an offer SAC has to consider bc it's fairly well-rounded. especially if it's 1-2 future 1st rounders along w/ 16 + 28 this year...Smart nice young piece, Sully going into his 4th year, Wallace expiring...

LOL we overrate our guys bet their laughing at this offer

Hah. More people around here underrate our guys. You know how many times I've seen someone say "We need to find someone to dump Bradley on. He's overpaid!" When he's obviously on a team friendly contract that is just gonna keep looking better and is a good player who holds real value to other teams.

Sacramento gives that offer a good, long look. It's unlikely they get a better one, and the word around the rumor mill is they'll never trade him to LA. After this whole debacle it would be a PR nightmare. They may have to get Denver involved in a 3 team trade. That offer is better for them because they're going into a full scale rebuild.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we manage to combine a player and some picks this year to move up to like 9, then picked a player of Sacto's choosing (WCS?) and that became part of the deal. Woj says they're trying to convince Love or LMA to sign here with Pierce and Lopez but that's the back up plan. Thomas, Pierce and Cousins is the real sell. I truly think Love is in play for us, and I think Danny does to. He wants to re-sign Crowder, Love to a max deal, have room for Pierce or Lopez is they're is no Cousins and bring in more salary via trade. That's why all the reports that say were looking for cap space. Does anyone really think Ainge would be looking to maximize cap space if he wasn't pretty sure we would use it.

If a Brooklyn pick is in that group of multiple 1sts, and I'm sure one would be, if your Divac you have to consider it. That's a good return. Say we give them our pick next year, the 2016 Brooklyn pick, the Minny pick, Memphis pick and another one of our own picks in a few years. That's 5 1sts and a possible 6th! Plus a high level prospect in Smart, an intriguing piece in Sully, Cap space next summer in Wallace as well as the possibility of us trading up for a guy like WCS and including him? You can't tell me that's not a legit offer you almost have to jump on.

[Endless Paradise]

It's unlikely they get a better one

Bet you they're willing to wait two years to call your bluff. Time is completely in their favor.

That offer is better for them because they're going into a full scale rebuild.

Every leak has said Sacramento is emphatically NOT trying to rebuild.

[BDeCosta26]

It's unlikely they get a better one

Bet you they're willing to wait two years to call your bluff. Time is completely in their favor.

That offer is better for them because they're going into a full scale rebuild.

Every leak has said Sacramento is emphatically NOT trying to rebuild.

That's what Karl says and thinks. The craziest part about this whole thing is that no one knows who the hell is in charge over there. Karl is trying to use his power to force a trade while Divac doesn't want to move him. But this situation has deteriorated so quickly that I'm starting to think the damage is done. Cousins wants out, and wants out now. Even if Divac takes full control and gets Vivek to dump Karl, this has just gone to far. He's almost at the point where he HAS to trade him. Too much damage already done.

If they really back what Karl is saying and try to get veterans, the C's are in perfect position to do that. Our assets would be even more valuable to a team like Denver, Karl would get his guys, a guy or two from us and a couple picks while Denver would get most of our assets. I like that even better, I think that's the only way we have the slightest chance of keeping Smart. But I think Divac, with Vivek's backing is going to take control of this from Karl and move him for the best deal he can get. Then at least they're starting anew. They didn't make the playoffs with DMC so they obviously won't if they trade him, you know your gonna be bad. Some extra 1st rounders, and one very good prospect with a couple other good young guys and the cap space from Wallace's deal to add to their asset pile.

Point being, we have a chance to land him. Of course we might not, there's other teams with competitive offers for sure, but we are certainly in play here. Tomorrow night could get really interesting.

[LarBrd33]

It's unlikely they get a better one

Bet you they're willing to wait two years to call your bluff. Time is completely in their favor.

That offer is better for them because they're going into a full scale rebuild.

Every leak has said Sacramento is emphatically NOT trying to rebuild.

That's what Karl says and thinks. The craziest part about this whole thing is that no one knows who the hell is in charge over there. Karl is trying to use his power to force a trade while Divac doesn't want to move him. But this situation has deteriorated so quickly that I'm starting to think the damage is done. Cousins wants out, and wants out now. Even if Divac takes full control and gets Vivek to dump Karl, this has just gone to far. He's almost at the point where he HAS to trade him. Too much damage already done.

If they really back what Karl is saying and try to get veterans, the C's are in perfect position to do that. Our assets would be even more valuable to a team like Denver, Karl would get his guys, a guy or two from us and a couple picks while Denver would get most of our assets. I like that even better, I think that's the only way we have the slightest chance of keeping Smart. But I think Divac, with Vivek's backing is going to take control of this from Karl and move him for the best deal he can get. Then at least they're starting anew. They didn't make the playoffs with DMC so they obviously won't if they trade him, you know your gonna be bad. Some extra 1st rounders, and one very good prospect with a couple other good young guys and the cap space from Wallace's deal to add to their asset pile.

Point being, we have a chance to land him. Of course we might not, there's other teams with competitive offers for sure, but we are certainly in play here. Tomorrow night could get really interesting.

Boogie should demand a trade.  He's never been willing to do that though.

[Kuberski33]

You guys really like torturing yourselves.   Prepare to be underwhelmed again.

Prediction - we draft a guy with holes in his game at 16, a project and 2 guys to stash in Europe -- and a bunch of people on CelticsBlog call for Ainge to be fired tomorrow night.

[SHAQATTACK]

I think

He wants WCS  and Cousins .....

Just don't know how it happens and keeping Smart too..

[LooseCannon]

This just in: LeBron James will not pitch for Kevin Love. Basically says he is on his own to make his own decision. Also telling him to "FIT-IN" and not "FIT-OUT".

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/24/8840507/lebron-james-wont-recruit-kevin-love-back-to-cleveland-per-report

If I were Love, I'd leave that dumpster right now and come to Boston. If that's how your loser teammates or a self-proclaimed narcissist are gonna treat you, then you leave!

If true, that's a very....Kobe-like attitude on the part of Lebron.

[Smokeeye123]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2015-06-24/demarcus-cousins-sacramento-kings-trade-report-rumors-george-karl

Your team really needs Cousins and has all the right assets! You can package those two mid-first round picks and that one onerous contract for the best offensive center in the NBA! Just throw in that one pick the Nets or Knicks or Lakers owe you! Just kick in that 2014 top-10 pick who you were a little disappointed with last season!

^ Perfect

So so so perfect

[hwangjini_1]

You guys really like torturing yourselves.   Prepare to be underwhelmed again.

Prediction - we draft a guy with holes in his game at 16, a project and 2 guys to stash in Europe ainge doesnt bring in all of love, cousins, lebron, and anthony -- and a bunch of people on CelticsBlog call for Ainge to be fired tomorrow night.

regardless of what happens tomorrow, you know some folks will howl for danny's head.

and a tp to you for a cute post.

[CelticSooner]

I think

He wants WCS  and Cousins .....

Just don't know how it happens and keeping Smart too..

Cousins does what WCS does by 10x better. If Cousins in the fold WCS would be redundant. Just get Cousins even if means Smart has to go. Those BKN picks are what I'm more worried about.

[Who]

Hard to give two high usage big men the touches they want and need to fully utilize their talents.

Two high usage players in a roster is hardly a problem. It's when it's 3+ that it might become an issue. But two players? Na'.

It's when the 2 high usage guys are both bigs. That is more difficult.

Than say an inside-outside combo that lends itself more naturally to a two man game.

Edit: I don't think it is a factor in convincing both players to team up. I do think it's likely to be a problem in getting full value out of both guys once they are here though. Cousins had pretty much the entire offense run through him in Sacramento. Kevin Love had similar situation in Minnesota. It'll be hard to keep both guys involved at that often when playing together. Often it'll be one guy with the other guy off the ball.

I can see the point from a "full value standpoint", but at the same time I think Love has much a perimeter game to make it work, and Cousins can operate from the mid-range as well. So this is not really about two bigs fighting for inside work and it becoming a problem, like say Monroe and Drummond to go a bit to the extremes.

Let's take Golden State this year for example, you had Thompson taking 17 shots in a really deep team (in just 31 minutes of play) and Curry about the same in about the same playing time. There low shot attempts more indicative of blowouts (lack of playing time) than opportunities, and again this from a deep team. That's about how many shot attempts Love was getting in more playing time while in Minnesota and the same with Cousins.

We can go with the locals, Pierce and Walker and how much usage they got while playing together, and those guys put even more shots than these guys... of course they played a lot more minutes, but bigs in general have their minutes more controlled anyways.

So I think you're mixing things unnecessarily. If your definition is based on "playing through them", then there's no combo of star players that will satisfy the dilemma you're presenting. If it's a matter of giving players their touches and what not, then I don't think that will be a problem at all, and there shouldn't be a problem with effectiveness considering the perimeter/post options both of these guys are able to present with a varied scale of skill respectively.

The real x-factor in all of this is Thomas and Bradley to a lesser extent. Those two could become a problem if the touches aren't getting there.

But I really don't see much of a problem with Love-Cousins pairing in particular in the context you're presenting.

What I worry about is the diminished returns for both of them but mostly the effect that will have on Kevin Love. On his overall value as a player because of how bad (terrible) Love's defense is. And whether Love is still really a max player - a dominant player - in that situation.

I don't worry so much about Cousins because he still has a good impact defensively. So even if his usage falls a bit offensively, he can spend some more energy there and still be a highly effective and dominant player.

But Kevin Love has shown himself incapable of that.

In Cleveland - in a more reduced role than I'd expect here - Love clearly wasn't a dominant player anymore with that smaller offensive role. He was effectively Ryan Anderson. So how much does Kevin Love need to be involved to still be worth a max contract? To still be good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title contender?

[Who]

I mean even on the Celtics with lesser players like Olynyk and Sullinger ... you can see a big difference with how involved each player is in terms of high post touches when the one is playing and the other is resting and when both are on the court together.

One of them is usually the main big man high post facilitator in terms of passing and facilitating ball movement when the other is off the floor. When both are on the court together, one usually gets the job and the other often turns into a spot-up shooter.

Cousins and Love are both used to being that guy. Both players averaged the 2nd most passes on their teams after their PGs (Love in Minnesota, not Cleveland). With Love, it is even more extreme than that. He averaged 60 passes a game to Cousins 42. That ranks Love 20th in the entire league. Of the other 20 guys, 17 were PGs (others were Noah & J.McRoberts). This is how many touches Kevin Love was getting in Minnesota. Everything ran through him.

Then to change situations and to play with a guy like Cousins who is going to get some of those touches. That is going to have an effect.

Both of these guys are used to getting all those touches. When they play together, they will have to share those touches. But my question is when they lose / sacrifice some of those touches, how much does that effect their overall value?

** with Cousins, I think it effects him very little because he is a well above average defensive player and can still have a huge impact on games even if he has a small decrease in offensive output

** with Love, I worry about Love because of how bad his defense is and how reliant he is on his offense to be a dominant player. He is more dependent on those touches to be a dominant player. So just how many touches does he lose and how much of a drop-off will there be? And how good-to-dominant in Kevin Love in that situation?