Can LeBron win Finals MVP (if Warriors win)?

[Who]

I don't mind LeBron's FG%

(1) His teammates are very limited in their own shot creation abilities.
(2) He has no PG
(3) Bad floor spacing due to lack of quality shooting ability from teammates
(4) He is playing against a top defensive team with multiple good-to-great defensive options available to throw at LeBron
(5) I think he is making good decisions with the ball. Given the high usage, I think the proportion of bad shots LeBron has taken in the series is fairly low. He regularly is taking good shots within the flow of the offense.

It's different shooting a bad FG% in situations like this and a player like say Kobe Bryant on those loaded Lakers teams with Pau Gasol, Odom, Bynum and multiple good role players. If LeBron had a healthy K-Love and healthy Kyrie Irving, I'd be angry with his shooting numbers. But he doesn't. And even though his scoring efficiency is low, he is still scoring more efficiently than the rest of his team is.

Plus, I think there is something valuable in a high-usage player (even with mediocre or worse) scoring efficiency when playing with teammates like LeBron has = spot up shooters, finishers around basket, limited individual shot-creation. He allows them to play in their more natural more efficient more effective roles. He is making everyone around him better by doing this.

Unlike a star who is on a loaded team and when he is scoring poorly is taking the ball out of more effective scoring options.

[Who]

I don't mind LeBron's FG%

(1) His teammates are very limited in their own shot creation abilities.
(2) He has no PG
(3) Bad floor spacing due to lack of quality shooting ability from teammates
(4) He is playing against a top defensive team with multiple good-to-great defensive options available to throw at LeBron
(5) I think he is making good decisions with the ball. Given the high usage, I think the proportion of bad shots LeBron has taken in the series is fairly low. He regularly is taking good shots within the flow of the offense.

It's different shooting a bad FG% in situations like this and a player like say Kobe Bryant on those loaded Lakers teams with Pau Gasol, Odom, Bynum and multiple good role players. If LeBron had a healthy K-Love and healthy Kyrie Irving, I'd be angry with his shooting numbers. But he doesn't. And even though his scoring efficiency is low, he is still scoring more efficiently than the rest of his team is.

Plus, I think there is something valuable in a high-usage player (even with mediocre or worse) scoring efficiency when playing with teammates like LeBron has = spot up shooters, finishers around basket, limited individual shot-creation. He allows them to play in their more natural more efficient more effective roles. He is making everyone around him better by doing this.

Unlike a star who is on a loaded team and when he is scoring poorly is taking the ball out of more effective scoring options.

Plus then there is the whole package beyond that

(1) the ball-handling, passing and playmaking
(2) the super rebounding
(3) the excellent defense
(4) the leadership
(5) the huge minutes he is playing

Managing to do all of this plus the scoring load he is carrying is absolutely incredible.

The stamina, work rate, focus and determination LeBron has had to have to provide so much for his team in these Finals has been extraordinary.

[D.o.s.]

No. My personal MVP take (and I know I've talked about this with you and others so this should hardly come as a surprise) is that it should go to the most indispensable player on a competitive team in a given year. That's the standard I hold for the regular season as well as the playoffs and the Finals.

I just think that the idea of "The MVP has to be on the winning team" is shortsighted, myself, and I cannot get around it from any perspective other than "this is an article of faith to the person posting as to how they feel about sports, and is inarguable on that front."

To me, if a game has a defined winner & loser, than a delineation can be drawn about who is most valuable.  And I don't think you can be the "most" if you fall short of a win. Individual or team sport. In this particular instance, the line is drawn with even more description by being a particular series MVP.  I don't think its short-sighted.  I think its perfectly reasonable.  That's my two cents. 

It's more common in the NCAA and the international circuit, but watching a team with a much nicer pedigree stomp on an obviously worse team does not make me think "their best player must be the most valuable player for this series," particularly if the losing team is only fielding one or two players that are legitimately up to the level of competition.

I still want the Warriors to win this series, but James has been the most valuable player on the floor for either team and to discredit his performance because he's all on his own is 110% shortsighted.

TL;DR: Vince Lombardi is a useless barometer when it comes to actually evaluating the performance on the field.

Handing it to a kid going 26/5/6 on a championship team (assuming they win) isn't much of a slap in the face, though.

Is the Lombardi thing at me?

No its more for anyone following along that might've glazed over. I know you're reading the whole post. 

[GreenFaith1819]

I don't mind LeBron's FG%

(1) His teammates are very limited in their own shot creation abilities.
(2) He has no PG
(3) Bad floor spacing due to lack of quality shooting ability from teammates
(4) He is playing against a top defensive team with multiple good-to-great defensive options available to throw at LeBron
(5) I think he is making good decisions with the ball. Given the high usage, I think the proportion of bad shots LeBron has taken in the series is fairly low. He regularly is taking good shots within the flow of the offense.

It's different shooting a bad FG% in situations like this and a player like say Kobe Bryant on those loaded Lakers teams with Pau Gasol, Odom, Bynum and multiple good role players. If LeBron had a healthy K-Love and healthy Kyrie Irving, I'd be angry with his shooting numbers. But he doesn't. And even though his scoring efficiency is low, he is still scoring more efficiently than the rest of his team is.

Plus, I think there is something valuable in a high-usage player (even with mediocre or worse) scoring efficiency when playing with teammates like LeBron has = spot up shooters, finishers around basket, limited individual shot-creation. He allows them to play in their more natural more efficient more effective roles. He is making everyone around him better by doing this.

Unlike a star who is on a loaded team and when he is scoring poorly is taking the ball out of more effective scoring options.

Plus then there is the whole package beyond that

(1) the ball-handling, passing and playmaking
(2) the super rebounding
(3) the excellent defense
(4) the leadership
(5) the huge minutes he is playing

Managing to do all of this plus the scoring load he is carrying is absolutely incredible.

The stamina, work rate, focus and determination LeBron has had to have to provide so much for his team in these Finals has been extraordinary.

All This.

LeBron James is having run like we haven't seen in a long time, in truly adverse conditions.

[GetLucky]

The problem with what LeBron is currently doing is that we're basically rewarding his aggregated cumulative stats that are in part as a consequence of having bad teammates.

It would be one thing if it was accompanied with at least a competent efficient shooting measure, but he's been quite bad on that regard.

So I find rewarding him for shooting A LOT and other stats that are in a large part a consequence of bad teammates (and an opponent that plays small), then I don't see this as the correct course of action when you have players on the winning side (at least so far) who have had a [dang] good series themselves in particular Curry and the unsexy Iggy who's defensive impact has been immense and has been quite productive and efficient offensively.

This is the basis of a lot of anti-LeBron MVP arguments, and I frankly don't get it. What are we saying? "LeBron's team sucks, so he has to average a triple-double." How does this discredit him? His team has won two games mostly because of him, which, by definition, makes him the most valuable player.

The Warriors are getting by with being a superior basketball team that is much better constructed. Almost every player in that system is simply a cog in the machine. Save Curry and Thompson in spurts, no one on that team is consistently transcendent. They've gotten some below-standard efforts by lots of their guys (Curry and Thompson included) and still won. LeBron can't afford to have even a very good game.

I honestly cannot see the argument here. Replace LeBron with anybody else on the planet, and there is absolutely no way the Cavs would have won 2 games. He needs to have 30-10-8 every single game to even give his team a chance, and he has done that so far. The series would have likely been over if LeBron was anyone else. I absolutely despise the guy, but give him his due. He is the MVP in every sense of the acronym.

And I find it funny that everyone used to hate on LeBron for "not being selfish enough" and "not taking over." He's being plenty selfish, taking over, and showing consistent greatness. Now, because he's LeBron, he's bring slightly discredited. I understand it (he carries himself terribly on the court), but I don't think it's right.

[celticsclay]

what if the Cavs win! Can it go to curry still?

[D.o.s.]

If Curry had been playing out of his mind this series, sure. But he hasn't, and you know he hasn't, so that's another fairly insipid argument to make, isn't it?

[Fred Roberts]

Clear cut.  Bron is best by far all over the court in every aspect.

[BudweiserCeltic]

If Curry had been playing out of his mind this series, sure. But he hasn't, and you know he hasn't, so that's another fairly insipid argument to make, isn't it?

Why does he need to play out of his mind? He's playing very good. Averaging 26 points a game, shooting over 50% in 3 of the 5 games is nothing to sneeze out.

I'll say this against him, he's turning the ball over a crap ton.

[celticsclay]

If Curry had been playing out of his mind this series, sure. But he hasn't, and you know he hasn't, so that's another fairly insipid argument to make, isn't it?

I was adding some levity to a topic that is being taken far too seriously.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't mind LeBron's FG%

(1) His teammates are very limited in their own shot creation abilities.
(2) He has no PG
(3) Bad floor spacing due to lack of quality shooting ability from teammates
(4) He is playing against a top defensive team with multiple good-to-great defensive options available to throw at LeBron
(5) I think he is making good decisions with the ball. Given the high usage, I think the proportion of bad shots LeBron has taken in the series is fairly low. He regularly is taking good shots within the flow of the offense.

It's different shooting a bad FG% in situations like this and a player like say Kobe Bryant on those loaded Lakers teams with Pau Gasol, Odom, Bynum and multiple good role players. If LeBron had a healthy K-Love and healthy Kyrie Irving, I'd be angry with his shooting numbers. But he doesn't. And even though his scoring efficiency is low, he is still scoring more efficiently than the rest of his team is.

Plus, I think there is something valuable in a high-usage player (even with mediocre or worse) scoring efficiency when playing with teammates like LeBron has = spot up shooters, finishers around basket, limited individual shot-creation. He allows them to play in their more natural more efficient more effective roles. He is making everyone around him better by doing this.

Unlike a star who is on a loaded team and when he is scoring poorly is taking the ball out of more effective scoring options.

Plus then there is the whole package beyond that

(1) the ball-handling, passing and playmaking
(2) the super rebounding
(3) the excellent defense
(4) the leadership
(5) the huge minutes he is playing

Managing to do all of this plus the scoring load he is carrying is absolutely incredible.

The stamina, work rate, focus and determination LeBron has had to have to provide so much for his team in these Finals has been extraordinary.

It's commendable, but results and end result of that individual performance matters. That's why his low shooting efficiency is very important. And with the level who's doing all the other things in the floor, I settle for a few upticks in efficiency... but shooting sub 40% in the series, regardless of what else you're doing in the floor, it's not going to lead to wins. You might get away with it a game here or there, but it's really not that impressive to me if you can't have that efficiency to go along with the workload.

I'll say this, I have no problems with people who look at the lack of efficiency and acknowledge it and still feel he deserves it, that's a very valid posture.

My biggest problem is with people who gloss over it, or don't even mention it, as if it didn't matter... it's a big deal. It's a matter if you think that the rest he does outweighs it enough to be on the losing side and still win MVP.

I don't think it's enough.

We'll see how he performs tonight.

And I also think that glossing over his efficiency undervalues what Iggy is doing in this series, Cleveland with this super God LeBron is not winning because Iggy has controlled him.

[Who]

Some numbers on LeBron's scoring efficiency relative to his teammates ....

LeBron = 183 points on 163 FGAs, 59 FTAs and 15 TOs
Rest of Cavs = 258 points on 244 FGAs, 72 FTAs, 41 TOs (not including Kyrie)

Defining possessions as (FGA + 0.44*FTA + TO)


LeBron = 183 points on 204 possessions = 0.897 points per possession
Rest of Cavs = 258 points on 316.7 possessions = 0.815 points per possession


That is about 10% higher rate of scoring efficiency than his teammates.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Some numbers on LeBron's scoring efficiency relative to his teammates ....

I am going to subtract Kyrie's numbers from game one to isolate what the rest of the Cavaliers team has been doing in terms of scoring efficiency.

LeBron = 183 points on 163 FGAs, 59 FTAs and 15 TOs
Kyrie = 23 points on 22 FGAs, 1 FTA, 1 TO
Rest of Cavs = 258 points on 244 FGAs, 72 FTAs, 41 TOs

Defining possessions as (FGA + 0.44*FTA + TO)


LeBron = 183 points on 204 possessions = 0.897 points per possession
Rest of Cavs = 258 points on 316.7 possessions = 0.815 points per possession


That is about 10% higher rate of scoring efficiency than his teammates.

That doesn't really matter to me all that much, all to say that the Cavs are better off with an inefficient LeBron shot than someone else's, which also explains the high workload.

But at the same time, inefficient is inefficient, not going to give credit simply because it's higher than theirs.

As I said, if LeBron managed to be a bit more efficient, which he certainly CAN, then Cleveland would be having a much better chance at winning and LeBron deserving of the MVP.

But he simply hasn't reached that level. I loved his last game even if he faltered at the end. 44% shooting for him, which is low for him, is a good number under the circumstances to add to the rest of what he's doing.

But I just can't fathom a player shooting under 40% for a series and being given an MVP finals trophy while losing, when you have worthy candidates like Curry on the other side.

If Golden State didn't have the good wing defenders they have, I'm sure LeBron would be having that better FG% I've been clamoring for, but it hasn't happened. It's a credit to Golden State that they've held LeBron to what he's managed so far, and that should be the important part in this. That's the formula to beat a LeBron team, and he shouldn't be rewarded for something that Golden State has prevented him from doing through much of the series.

I wish I had access to stats in the eFG& and TS% as such, I'm working a bit blind here and simply throwing FG% around which I don't like to do, but it's all I have for the moment.

But in general, I'd settle for performances like he did last game... but Curry was even better in my opinion.

[Donoghus]

No, no, & no.

Sorry, tonight certainly doesn't cut it.

It's Curry's.

[hwangjini_1]

No, no, & no.

Sorry, tonight certainly doesn't cut it.

It's Curry's.

beat me to it. yes, lebron was merely excellent tonight. he was good, but curry was better in this series.