The love affair with Philadelphia

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

MCW...developing guys in a culture that uses a bad coach or hack for the dumbo GM .....bringing the best players in and screwing up their minds and attitudes.

This a great plan.  Taking the best picks and turning them into non pro .


If I was drafted under a system like 76ers GM......I d want out ASAP .    The whole system stinks .

 

Brett Brown is an excellent coach who specializes in player development.

 
 

Yeah, you must be right. The C's have done great with their 1st round picks. One shooting <40% and the other in the D league.
 

Dismissing Smart because of one weak point in his game as a 21 year old rookie starting on a team playing well suggests you may not know what you are talking about....

Where did I dismiss Smart? He's a very good on ball defender who is a black hole on offense, that's a lot harder to hide at guard than at Center. Brett Brown was one of the head guys for the Spurs player development program... If you want to suggest the Spurs aren't good at developing players have at it.

[Moranis]

The pro Sixers crowd argument seems to be as follows: The Sixers would not trade any one of their top 3 assets for any of the Celtics asset.

My counters
1. Assets need to be in the right situation to fully develop, the Celtics current winning situation is more conducive to player development
2. Winning attracts talent. No one is going to sign with the Sixers (or agree to be traded to the Sixers) until they show some type of success. The C's are better set up to attract free agents or convince players to agree to a trade there.

There really is no evidence of #1.  Durant won 20 games as a rookie and 23 games as a second year man on a team that was selling off veterans for draft picks and future assets.  He seemed to develop just fine.  Similarly plenty of rookies come into winning teams and don't develop at all.  Development is and always has been about the player, not the situation.  "Winning" players will develop and grow in any situation just like "losing" players won't develop no matter the situation.  The won/loss record of the team they are on really is not relevant. 

Similarly there really is no evidence of #2 except as it relates to veteran role players.  The starter caliber players that switch teams in free agency go to a wide plethora of situations for a wide plethora of reasons, though money and years seems to be the most important factor.  And this isn't just the superstar, just regular starter level players leave all the time and often to worse teams.  Just this past off season, Stephenson went to a worse team.  Parsons went to a worse team.  Bosh stayed in Miami rather than going to Houston.  There are countless other examples of players going to worse teams (now sure some guys go to good teams like Pau signing with Chicago, but his current team didn't want him back.  Same with Deng). 

Philly's future success will hinge on the success of its draft picks.  If even just one of them is a monster, then they will be set up quite well going forward. 

Boston's issue is that it has no monster on its team and no one on it will ever be a monster.  In another thread I went through the past 15 or so champions and posted the top 3 to 5 players on those teams and how they were acquired.  Over 90% were acquired via the draft or trading with very few free agents coming into the mix (and about 70% were top five picks with another 20% or so being a top ten pick).  And the majority of those acquired via trade were acquired by giving up fairly recent top 5 picks (or guys that played like they should have been top 5 picks like Al Jefferson) as well as future unprotected picks.  Boston is lacking that type of centerpiece asset on its current roster.  Now sure those Brooklyn picks might hit, but they certainly might not, which leaves Boston is a very tough situation for acquiring the players required to be a champion, at least from a historical perspective.

[cman88]

to be fair, we don't know what Marcus Smart will become yet. He shows glimpses of being able to be a dominant scorer but he is very streaky right now. if they can work on him going to the basket and drawing fouls he will be very effective. we do know at the very least he is an NBA caliber player though.

we DONT even know what Embiid will become. has he even stepped on the floor yet? guy is just as likely to become the next greg oden as he is the next Dwight howard

[Moranis]

to be fair, we don't know what Marcus Smart will become yet. He shows glimpses of being able to be a dominant scorer but he is very streaky right now. if they can work on him going to the basket and drawing fouls he will be very effective. we do know at the very least he is an NBA caliber player though.

we DONT even know what Embiid will become. has he even stepped on the floor yet? guy is just as likely to become the next greg oden as he is the next Dwight howard

Smart isn't going to be a monster.  He could certainly be a very good player and starter, but he isn't an all timer type player.  I can see that now.  You need all timers to win titles.  And you are right about Embiid, no one knows what he will be, but Noel looks like he might be a Dikembe/Wallace/Rodman type defensive force.  His rookie season, especially post ASB, is that good.  He has basically all by himself turned Philly into a top ten defense.  He could be a monster and is the only guy playing on either Philly or Boston you can say that about. 

[SHAQATTACK]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

[Csfan1984]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

I agree it looks bad. They're never going to build a great team if they refuse to give guys time to develop. The "you are not a star in 2 years trading you" strategy seems horrible. Veteran teams win titles not 3 and 4 year players. Believe avg age of modern day championship teams is 28. And no teams since 70s haven't done it at under effective age of 26. That means guys the guys you rely on are 5+ year pros. Philly strategy of draft high is nice but can't sit there just waiting to hit big.

[Evantime34]

The pro Sixers crowd argument seems to be as follows: The Sixers would not trade any one of their top 3 assets for any of the Celtics asset.

My counters
1. Assets need to be in the right situation to fully develop, the Celtics current winning situation is more conducive to player development
2. Winning attracts talent. No one is going to sign with the Sixers (or agree to be traded to the Sixers) until they show some type of success. The C's are better set up to attract free agents or convince players to agree to a trade there.

1. Then why aren't their players developing faster? Winning is a result of players developing, it's not a means by which you develop them.
2. You are a sub .500 team in a non destination market. If you aren't a contender or a team in Texas, Miami, NY or LA you aren't attracting much FA interest from max guys.

1. If winning is a result of players developing, then someone has to be developing for us to win. I think we have seen Smart develop over the course of the year along with Zeller, Crowder, and Turner. The C's trade for players, increase their value by developing them and thus improve their asset base. The Sixers have made no such moves.
2. We don't need to be a max free agent destination, but our recent winning will attract the second tier free agents. Where Philly won't even be going after free agents for a couple years.

Randy I asked these questions of you earlier but it must of gotten buried in the thread. When do you think the Sixers will be better than the Celtics? When do you think Hinkie will start to sign free agents?

My opinion is that the Sixers are going to get progressively further behind the Celtics as the years go by and once your high value assets develop, the C's will already have such a competitive advantage by being currently good that the Sixers won't be able to catch them.

I'm just not sold on building a team based on assets that are coming off injury, coming off injury and skinny or not coming to the NBA for a couple years.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

You are barely literate... Insulting anybody else's brain is an area you have no business being in.

The Celtics tanked every bit as hard as the Sixers did in 07. The Sixers haven't been the worst team in the NBA yet for all the ignorant p---ing and moaning they catch from fans like you. And they're not sitting there hoping their top picks saves them. But once again for you to know any of that you'd act have to know what you're talking about. Focus on speaking English first, then worry about the NBA.

[PhoSita]

Cool it, guys.

[D.o.s.]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

 
The Celtics tanked every bit as hard as the Sixers did in 07. The Sixers haven't been the worst team in the NBA yet for all the ignorant p---ing and moaning they catch from fans like you. And they're not sitting there hoping their top picks saves them. But once again for you to know any of that you'd act have to know what you're talking about. Focus on speaking English first, then worry about the NBA.

Intelligence and legibility have little to do with one another, it would seem.

[tazzmaniac]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

I agree it looks bad. They're never going to build a great team if they refuse to give guys time to develop. The "you are not a star in 2 years trading you" strategy seems horrible. Veteran teams win titles not 3 and 4 year players. Believe avg age of modern day championship teams is 28. And no teams since 70s haven't done it at under effective age of 26. That means guys the guys you rely on are 5+ year pros. Philly strategy of draft high is nice but can't sit there just waiting to hit big.

They traded MCW because he was a very offensively inefficient PG and they got a very good Lakers pick in return.  Noel has looked better offensively after the trade with Ish Smith at PG.  Hinkie obviously didn't think MCW would develop into the kind of player he wants as their future PG.  If they held onto MCW, the most likely outcome would be that he'd remain an inefficient PG and his trade value would plummet. 

McDaniels was traded because he didn't sign a team friendly deal like most 2nd rounders do.  He wasn't going to overpay to keep McDaniels, a role player at best, so he traded him for some return. 

Besides MCW and McDaniels, I don't see anyone else you could be referring to.  They are developing Noel quite well and at the end of the season moved him back to PF to try to get him ready to play with Embiid. 

[Evantime34]

For anyone that likes to listen to podcasts the Bill don't lie Podcast discussed the Sixers in depth on yesterday's version.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12682308

[KeepRondo]

MCW...developing guys in a culture that uses a bad coach or hack for the dumbo GM .....bringing the best players in and screwing up their minds and attitudes.

This a great plan.  Taking the best picks and turning them into non pro .


If I was drafted under a system like 76ers GM......I d want out ASAP .    The whole system stinks .

One of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Brett Brown is an excellent coach who specializes in player development.

Bawwwww haaaaa ....haaaa .....your being too funny

Yeah, you must be right. The C's have done great with their 1st round picks. One shooting <40% and the other in the D league.

Knowing what you're talking about might be helpful in a discussion forum. You should try it some time.

Nice job pointing out how James Young got sent to the D league, meanwhile 90 percent of your roster are d league players.

Hope you enjoyed MCW posting 30 on you guys.

Also, isn't Noel shooting 46 percent as a center? That's pretty bad for a big who doesn't shoot threes. Can we get one of our stat guys to compare true shooting efficiency between Smart and Noel?

The same MCW that's pretty much led to an offensive meltdown in Milwaukee? Whoa is us, we got a top 5 protected pick from a terrible team for one of the worst shooters in the NBA.

The difference being that Noel is a significantly more impactful defender than Smart, plays a more important position and is shooting shots he wouldn't be shooting if Philly cared about their record this year.

You talk like it's top 5 protected for you guys but it's top 5 protected for the Lakers. There's only a 13 percent chance that you guys see that pick this year. And then good luck next year after the Lakers get Randall, Kobe, their pick this year and a possible free agent added. I'm thinking it might be around pick 9-11. I would rather have MCW.

Also, Smart's true shooting percentage is .492 and Noel's is .493. So both players are about even as far as efficiency goes. And if you start with the, he's forced to put up shots, then is he really a 4 point scorer? Make up your mind.

And when you say things like Noel is a much more impactful player on defense, that makes me think you either don't watch the Celtics or you don't know your stuff.

[KeepRondo]

76ers just going though the motions of TRYIng to play basketball.   That's great entertainment .   Putting together a program based on losing .   . 

That's good value and something cheer for and pay to see? Yeah right.

If the Celtics did this , I would not be buying tickets and wouldn't pay for league pass to watch d leaguers and this years first round player stumble around getting destroyed.

So how many years do they idle along , pretending to be a basketball team , waiting for the next MJ to happen along.   There is way more to team than just getting a few first round lottery picks , of course if your only a lad .....your brain would have any reference for how the real world works.

It some point ...they need to man up ...quit the bull and play the game ....like professionals



So they are professional screw up team ......wow that's something to be proud of ......bunch of losers.

 

The Celtics tanked every bit as hard as the Sixers did in 07. The Sixers haven't been the worst team in the NBA yet for all the ignorant p---ing and moaning they catch from fans like you. And they're not sitting there hoping their top picks saves them. But once again for you to know any of that you'd act have to know what you're talking about. Focus on speaking English first, then worry about the NBA.

Intelligence and legibility have little to do with one another, it would seem.

TP

[celticsclay]

MCW...developing guys in a culture that uses a bad coach or hack for the dumbo GM .....bringing the best players in and screwing up their minds and attitudes.

This a great plan.  Taking the best picks and turning them into non pro .


If I was drafted under a system like 76ers GM......I d want out ASAP .    The whole system stinks .

One of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Brett Brown is an excellent coach who specializes in player development.

Bawwwww haaaaa ....haaaa .....your being too funny

Yeah, you must be right. The C's have done great with their 1st round picks. One shooting <40% and the other in the D league.

Knowing what you're talking about might be helpful in a discussion forum. You should try it some time.

Dismissing Smart because of one weak point in his game as a 21 year old rookie starting on a team playing well suggests you may not know what you are talking about....

Where did I dismiss Smart? He's a very good on ball defender who is a black hole on offense, that's a lot harder to hide at guard than at Center. Brett Brown was one of the head guys for the Spurs player development program... If you want to suggest the Spurs aren't good at developing players have at it.

Randy, you sarcasticly said we are doing great with our rookies pointing out one was shooting poorly and one was in the d-leagues. Any reasonable person would interpret that as you saying our rookies are pretty bad. Smart has had a solid season playing a starting role on a team exceeding expectations and also while battling an ankle injury. He has shown a bit more aggression and a little better shooting in the month of April. I think he still has a real lot of upside. To your second point, I don't think I said anything about the 76er's player development so I am not sure why you are writing that to me.

 I feel like you are arguing with every Celtics fan and forgetting who said what. To that point, it is good to have you on the board and you have been reasonable on your evaluation of a lot of the 76er's players. In particular it was really refreshing that you acknowledged your bench players were weak when some of our overzealous fans were going over the top on them as NBA caliber players. I think you can tell who is saying reasonable stuff here and who is not, so I wouldn't waste time and energy trying to respond to everyone that says something anti-philly, especially if no reasoning is provided.

PS Tommy point for the insight you have provided on the 76ers