My early 2015 1st round picks for the Celtics

[HomerSapien]

May I ask which teams were these that thought he was too short? Because at the combine Curry measured 6' 3.25".  You're making stuff up now.

The biggest knock on both players was the level of competition (Southern conference for one, Big Sky for the other). That was the main reason both players didn't go higher in the draft. The only other questions I remember on either were concerns about Curry being too thin and if Lillard could play PG after being a scoring PG at Weber St. However, that was always secondary to the stats vs weak competition criticism.

I don't have too many NBA GMs on speed dial, so I can't say specifically which teams, but here are some snippets from 2009 draft coverage.  Fortunately, Chad Ford hasn't been able to retroedit the entire internet.

From Draftexpress:

WEAKNESSES:
-Not a true point guard
- Out of control at times
- Shot-selection
- Stuck between 1 and 2
- Ability to defend position at next level?
- Lateral quickness
- Versatility to defend multiple positions
- Limited upside?
- Backup/Fringe Starter?
- College system makes him difficult to evaluate
- Average athleticism
- Average size
- Average wingspan
- Frail frame
- Relies too heavily on outside shot

From nbadraft.net:
Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism ... At 6-2, he's extremely small for the NBA shooting guard position, and it will likely keep him from being much of a defender at the next level ... Although he's playing point guard this year, he's not a natural point guard that an NBA team can rely on to run a team ... Struggles defensively getting around screens ... Can overshoot and rush into shots from time to time (vs. WV) ... Hasn't had to deal with getting benched due to poor performance (shooting) which has allowed him to shoot through any slumps. Will have to adjust to not being a volume shooter which could have an effect on his effectiveness ... Doesn’t like when defenses are too physical with him ... Not a great finisher around the basket due to his size and physical attributes ... Makes some silly mistakes at the PG position. Needs to add some muscles to his upper body, but appears as though he'll always be skinny ...

I think playing at Davidson certainly worked against him, but ultimately I don't think it's fair to say it was the primary reason teams passed on him.

[Eddie20]

May I ask which teams were these that thought he was too short? Because at the combine Curry measured 6' 3.25".  You're making stuff up now.

The biggest knock on both players was the level of competition (Southern conference for one, Big Sky for the other). That was the main reason both players didn't go higher in the draft. The only other questions I remember on either were concerns about Curry being too thin and if Lillard could play PG after being a scoring PG at Weber St. However, that was always secondary to the stats vs weak competition criticism.

I don't have too many NBA GMs on speed dial, so I can't say specifically which teams, but here are some snippets from 2009 draft coverage.  Fortunately, Chad Ford hasn't been able to retroedit the entire internet.

From Draftexpress:

WEAKNESSES:
-Not a true point guard
- Out of control at times
- Shot-selection
- Stuck between 1 and 2
- Ability to defend position at next level?
- Lateral quickness
- Versatility to defend multiple positions
- Limited upside?
- Backup/Fringe Starter?
- College system makes him difficult to evaluate
- Average athleticism
- Average size
- Average wingspan
- Frail frame
- Relies too heavily on outside shot

From nbadraft.net:
Far below NBA standard in regard to explosivenes and athleticism ... At 6-2, he's extremely small for the NBA shooting guard position, and it will likely keep him from being much of a defender at the next level ... Although he's playing point guard this year, he's not a natural point guard that an NBA team can rely on to run a team ... Struggles defensively getting around screens ... Can overshoot and rush into shots from time to time (vs. WV) ... Hasn't had to deal with getting benched due to poor performance (shooting) which has allowed him to shoot through any slumps. Will have to adjust to not being a volume shooter which could have an effect on his effectiveness ... Doesn’t like when defenses are too physical with him ... Not a great finisher around the basket due to his size and physical attributes ... Makes some silly mistakes at the PG position. Needs to add some muscles to his upper body, but appears as though he'll always be skinny ...

I think playing at Davidson certainly worked against him, but ultimately I don't think it's fair to say it was the primary reason teams passed on him.

So let me get this straight, you can say, "teams thought he was too short", but when I ask, "which teams" I get a "I don't have too many GM's on speed dial" response. Interesting.

Anyways, you said teams thought he was too short and he didn't have the handle or passing skills to be an NBA PG. None of those weaknesses you listed stated anything of the sort. Of course he's not a true PG, neither is Lillard. That has nothing to do with his handle or passing ability, but more to do with his shoot first/scoring mindset. 

Oh, and here are the strengths you forgot to include since you said his handle and passing were in question...

Strengths
- Craftiness
- Excellent skill-level
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Off-ball movement
- Offensive creativity
- Scoring instincts
- Ability to create own shot
- Change of gears/Hesitation moves
- Ability to get in passing lanes
- Aggressiveness
- Awareness
- Basketball IQ
- Competitiveness
- Confidence
- Leadership skills in clutch
- Poise
- Strong Intangibles
- Unselfishness
- Winning mentality
- Work ethic
- Ability to create for others
- Conditioning
- Ability to catch and shoot
- Ability to come off screens
- Ability to create separation from defender
- Ability to shoot off the dribble
- Free throw shooting
- NBA 3-point range


From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz3UptRXOcK
http://www.draftexpress.com

[MBunge]

Just read over the thread and I got some comments

1. Harrell is a good player but what is his upside? We need players who could some day end up being elite. Drafting a 21 year old 6'6 pf doesn't really have huge upside. If he's available with the Clippers pick we should take him but our pick is too early.

2. I think Kaminsky is a solid player but if he is the best player available we need to trade up. If we pick at 16 I would prefer Portis to Kaminsky but I think we need to go big either way and a good floor spacing big would help.

3. Someone compared Myles Turner to Thabeet. Turner has the chance to be a great shot blocker but he also is extremely skilled. If Thabeet had Turner's offensive game he wouldn't have been a bust.

4. I agree that WCS could drop since I doubt the Jazz, Philly, and Detroit pick a center and there should be 3 or 4 centers drafted ahead of WCS so maybe he slips. However, we will still need to trade up to at latest the 8-10 pick in order to draft him.

5. LaVert or RHJ would both be great picks with the Clippers pick.

I'm going to say the C's trade up to grab WCS, and then get LaVert or RHJ with the Clippers pick (or we trade the clippers pick and trade two of our seconds to move up and grab one of those guys).

-Turner to Thabeet comparison is good.  Just not that mobile, agile on the court.  Turner can move a little better but he has a strange running technique that imo will result in injuries sooner or later. Again he does not fit with CBS system overall, only for specific situations (Against Hibbert). But as of late we are making the opposing teams follow our lead (go small)

-  Harrell is not 6'6.  He matched up against Brice Johnson last week and he was only a tad shorter. Brice Johnson is 6'9. Harrell is 6'8

- Everyone want the Celts to move up in the draft. How easy is that? When was the last time anyone can remember a team able to move up to top 5 having a 14th pick for example? bc of the way the salary cap/structure is these days, picks are very valuable to keep/develop

Turner is a big who can block shots and step out and hit the 3. That sounds like a perfect fit for Steven's system. Turner probably won't be ready to play away but he has a ton more potential than Harrell and we need to swing for the fences in the draft because we don't need depth.

Draft Express has Harrell as 6'6.5 in shoes. (6'5 w/o shoes) He's certainly not 6'8.

I agree that we won't move into the top 5 but there have been a bunch of trades where a team moves up into the 8-12 range (Chicago moved up last year)

If Harrell is only 6'7 then thats ok still. He has a long wingspan, 8'11 reach and is explosive off the ground.   
Blake Griffin is only 6'8 with 6'11 wingspan. Faried only 6'7 with 6'11 wingspan.   

Harrell is a more explosive , intense version of Brandon Bass.  Brandon Bass has fit really well under CBS system.

We would not be grabbing Harrell to be a center but he could guard centers occasionally (like Crowder , due to his strength, won't give up position easily), depending what CBS wants to do out on the floor.   

IF Bass is not brought back, Harrell could fill in that mobile, athletic , ability to guard multiple position pf role and provide even more intensity.

I think Faried is a good comp for Harrell. But Harrell's lack of shooting would give you the same spacing problem Faried does for the Nuggets. As to the blake Griffin comparison, Blake is 6'8.5 with out shoes, Harrell is 6'5.5 without shoes. Harrell hasn't given the indication that he will ever be able to shoot like Bass.

Regardless, I don't think you draft a junior who is already what he will be long term vs a player with a higher ceiling (unless the Junior fits a need). We need the player with the higher ceiling. I don't agree that Harrell fits Steven's system either.

I'm not sure what your basing on what kind of player fits CBS system. But from what i have seen, he tends to like playing players who are tough, works extremely hard, versatile defender/guard multiple positions, able to run end to end  on multiple occasions between whistles, good bbiq.   Able to make the open jump shots is nice also

Harrell outside of ability to make jump shot on a consistent basis (he has improved though, and more willing to shoot it then in the past) meets all the other criteria I listed above.   He is also explosive and is a capable rim protector.   

So tell me, why wouldn't he fit under CBS system?  or does he not fit in with what your looking for?

To me Stevens system likes position versatility, floor spacing and ball handlers.

Harrell is an undersized 4 in the NBA. I don't think you can have him guard anything but 4's in the NBA. So I don't see any positional versatility. He isn't a very good shooter so you won't see him space the floor much and he doesn't have any perimeter ball handling skills.

Stevens likes to go small, when he goes small he usually has lineup that consist of 5 shooters or 4 shooters and one big. Harrell can't be in the 5 shooter lineups because he can't shoot, and if you are playing him as your only big, he won't be able to protect the rim like you would want in that lineup.

A good comp for why he wouldn't succeed is Thomas Robinson. 4's that can't either shoot or block shots aren't succeeding as anything more than back ups in todays NBA.

I like him Harrell just not with our first pick because he doesn't have the upside because of his lack of size and age.

I disagree with many of your points. I have watched several Louisville last and this season games and Harrell can defend more than one position. He is all over the court some games.  See the link below from 6:39. He can guard sfs and keep up even with some guards out on the perimeter. He has good lateral quickness.  He is a strong kid and also will make it tough for some centers to gain inside position. Willing to battle on the inside.

The problem with that statement is that he's doing it on the college level. Covering big college stiffs is a far cry from how that'll translate to the next level.

You seem to be all over the place with your player likes, so I can't quite figure you out. However, the one common denominator is that you seem very keen on college basketball stats/production and thinking that means it'll translate on the next level. For me, I'd much rather take the young 18-19 year old freshman with upside, rather than the 21-22 year old (like your guys Kaminsky, Harrell, etc.) with a limited ceiling.

You'd rather have Kaminsky ahead of Turner and Harrell ahead of say, Cliff Alexander, but imagine for a second what those younger players would be doing on the college level at the same age as Kaminsky and Harrell.

but those players haven't. And we don't know if they will.

I value the proof of hard work and accomplishments more than "potential". How many guys with off the charts potential ever reach it??  Russell Westbrook is the last guy I can think of that didn't accomplish much in college to become a star in the NBA.

Would you draft Perry Jones over Jae Crowder?  Jeremy Lamb over Marcus Smart?

something to think about

Those are strange comparisons.  How about these?  Would you draft Embiid over Smart?  The Greek Freak over Olynyk?  The correct answer is everyday and twice on Sunday.

For teams that have mediocre talent at best, the draft should be all about taking the best player available.  NBA readiness, system fit, etc should be tertiary considerations.  The potential for getting a star is worth the risk of a draft pick bust.  Freshman and sophomores drafted for their potential are relatively speaking much more likely to succeed in the NBA than more accomplished juniors and seniors.

That's the sort of thinking that led to freshman Michael Kidd-Gilchrist being selected over junior Damien Lillard.  Or freshman Tyreke Evans and sophomore Jonny Flynn over junior Stephan Curry.

Mike

No, not exactly. Don't you find it ironic that both the players you mentioned (Lillard and Curry) played in smaller schools against weaker competition?

Who did the Greek Freak play against?

And if you need more evidence...

2011 NBA Draft.

#4 Tristan Thompson, freshman from Texas.
#11 Klay Thompson, junior from Washington State.
#16 Nikola Vucevic, junior from USC.

And don't forget...

#30 Jimmy Butler, senior from Marquette.

It's true that great players tend to leave school earlier now.  But plenty of guys who turn out to be busts or average NBA players also leave school earlier as well.

Mike

[Eddie20]

Just read over the thread and I got some comments

1. Harrell is a good player but what is his upside? We need players who could some day end up being elite. Drafting a 21 year old 6'6 pf doesn't really have huge upside. If he's available with the Clippers pick we should take him but our pick is too early.

2. I think Kaminsky is a solid player but if he is the best player available we need to trade up. If we pick at 16 I would prefer Portis to Kaminsky but I think we need to go big either way and a good floor spacing big would help.

3. Someone compared Myles Turner to Thabeet. Turner has the chance to be a great shot blocker but he also is extremely skilled. If Thabeet had Turner's offensive game he wouldn't have been a bust.

4. I agree that WCS could drop since I doubt the Jazz, Philly, and Detroit pick a center and there should be 3 or 4 centers drafted ahead of WCS so maybe he slips. However, we will still need to trade up to at latest the 8-10 pick in order to draft him.

5. LaVert or RHJ would both be great picks with the Clippers pick.

I'm going to say the C's trade up to grab WCS, and then get LaVert or RHJ with the Clippers pick (or we trade the clippers pick and trade two of our seconds to move up and grab one of those guys).

-Turner to Thabeet comparison is good.  Just not that mobile, agile on the court.  Turner can move a little better but he has a strange running technique that imo will result in injuries sooner or later. Again he does not fit with CBS system overall, only for specific situations (Against Hibbert). But as of late we are making the opposing teams follow our lead (go small)

-  Harrell is not 6'6.  He matched up against Brice Johnson last week and he was only a tad shorter. Brice Johnson is 6'9. Harrell is 6'8

- Everyone want the Celts to move up in the draft. How easy is that? When was the last time anyone can remember a team able to move up to top 5 having a 14th pick for example? bc of the way the salary cap/structure is these days, picks are very valuable to keep/develop

Turner is a big who can block shots and step out and hit the 3. That sounds like a perfect fit for Steven's system. Turner probably won't be ready to play away but he has a ton more potential than Harrell and we need to swing for the fences in the draft because we don't need depth.

Draft Express has Harrell as 6'6.5 in shoes. (6'5 w/o shoes) He's certainly not 6'8.

I agree that we won't move into the top 5 but there have been a bunch of trades where a team moves up into the 8-12 range (Chicago moved up last year)

If Harrell is only 6'7 then thats ok still. He has a long wingspan, 8'11 reach and is explosive off the ground.   
Blake Griffin is only 6'8 with 6'11 wingspan. Faried only 6'7 with 6'11 wingspan.   

Harrell is a more explosive , intense version of Brandon Bass.  Brandon Bass has fit really well under CBS system.

We would not be grabbing Harrell to be a center but he could guard centers occasionally (like Crowder , due to his strength, won't give up position easily), depending what CBS wants to do out on the floor.   

IF Bass is not brought back, Harrell could fill in that mobile, athletic , ability to guard multiple position pf role and provide even more intensity.

I think Faried is a good comp for Harrell. But Harrell's lack of shooting would give you the same spacing problem Faried does for the Nuggets. As to the blake Griffin comparison, Blake is 6'8.5 with out shoes, Harrell is 6'5.5 without shoes. Harrell hasn't given the indication that he will ever be able to shoot like Bass.

Regardless, I don't think you draft a junior who is already what he will be long term vs a player with a higher ceiling (unless the Junior fits a need). We need the player with the higher ceiling. I don't agree that Harrell fits Steven's system either.

I'm not sure what your basing on what kind of player fits CBS system. But from what i have seen, he tends to like playing players who are tough, works extremely hard, versatile defender/guard multiple positions, able to run end to end  on multiple occasions between whistles, good bbiq.   Able to make the open jump shots is nice also

Harrell outside of ability to make jump shot on a consistent basis (he has improved though, and more willing to shoot it then in the past) meets all the other criteria I listed above.   He is also explosive and is a capable rim protector.   

So tell me, why wouldn't he fit under CBS system?  or does he not fit in with what your looking for?

To me Stevens system likes position versatility, floor spacing and ball handlers.

Harrell is an undersized 4 in the NBA. I don't think you can have him guard anything but 4's in the NBA. So I don't see any positional versatility. He isn't a very good shooter so you won't see him space the floor much and he doesn't have any perimeter ball handling skills.

Stevens likes to go small, when he goes small he usually has lineup that consist of 5 shooters or 4 shooters and one big. Harrell can't be in the 5 shooter lineups because he can't shoot, and if you are playing him as your only big, he won't be able to protect the rim like you would want in that lineup.

A good comp for why he wouldn't succeed is Thomas Robinson. 4's that can't either shoot or block shots aren't succeeding as anything more than back ups in todays NBA.

I like him Harrell just not with our first pick because he doesn't have the upside because of his lack of size and age.

I disagree with many of your points. I have watched several Louisville last and this season games and Harrell can defend more than one position. He is all over the court some games.  See the link below from 6:39. He can guard sfs and keep up even with some guards out on the perimeter. He has good lateral quickness.  He is a strong kid and also will make it tough for some centers to gain inside position. Willing to battle on the inside.

The problem with that statement is that he's doing it on the college level. Covering big college stiffs is a far cry from how that'll translate to the next level.

You seem to be all over the place with your player likes, so I can't quite figure you out. However, the one common denominator is that you seem very keen on college basketball stats/production and thinking that means it'll translate on the next level. For me, I'd much rather take the young 18-19 year old freshman with upside, rather than the 21-22 year old (like your guys Kaminsky, Harrell, etc.) with a limited ceiling.

You'd rather have Kaminsky ahead of Turner and Harrell ahead of say, Cliff Alexander, but imagine for a second what those younger players would be doing on the college level at the same age as Kaminsky and Harrell.

but those players haven't. And we don't know if they will.

I value the proof of hard work and accomplishments more than "potential". How many guys with off the charts potential ever reach it??  Russell Westbrook is the last guy I can think of that didn't accomplish much in college to become a star in the NBA.

Would you draft Perry Jones over Jae Crowder?  Jeremy Lamb over Marcus Smart?

something to think about

Those are strange comparisons.  How about these?  Would you draft Embiid over Smart?  The Greek Freak over Olynyk?  The correct answer is everyday and twice on Sunday.

For teams that have mediocre talent at best, the draft should be all about taking the best player available.  NBA readiness, system fit, etc should be tertiary considerations.  The potential for getting a star is worth the risk of a draft pick bust.  Freshman and sophomores drafted for their potential are relatively speaking much more likely to succeed in the NBA than more accomplished juniors and seniors.

That's the sort of thinking that led to freshman Michael Kidd-Gilchrist being selected over junior Damien Lillard.  Or freshman Tyreke Evans and sophomore Jonny Flynn over junior Stephan Curry.

Mike

No, not exactly. Don't you find it ironic that both the players you mentioned (Lillard and Curry) played in smaller schools against weaker competition?

Who did the Greek Freak play against?

And if you need more evidence...

2011 NBA Draft.

#4 Tristan Thompson, freshman from Texas.
#11 Klay Thompson, junior from Washington State.
#16 Nikola Vucevic, junior from USC.

And don't forget...

#30 Jimmy Butler, senior from Marquette.

It's true that great players tend to leave school earlier now.  But plenty of guys who turn out to be busts or average NBA players also leave school earlier as well.

Mike

You can find outliers, but on the whole you'll find that the younger player has the larger potential for growth because of age. 

[tazzmaniac]

Just read over the thread and I got some comments

1. Harrell is a good player but what is his upside? We need players who could some day end up being elite. Drafting a 21 year old 6'6 pf doesn't really have huge upside. If he's available with the Clippers pick we should take him but our pick is too early.

2. I think Kaminsky is a solid player but if he is the best player available we need to trade up. If we pick at 16 I would prefer Portis to Kaminsky but I think we need to go big either way and a good floor spacing big would help.

3. Someone compared Myles Turner to Thabeet. Turner has the chance to be a great shot blocker but he also is extremely skilled. If Thabeet had Turner's offensive game he wouldn't have been a bust.

4. I agree that WCS could drop since I doubt the Jazz, Philly, and Detroit pick a center and there should be 3 or 4 centers drafted ahead of WCS so maybe he slips. However, we will still need to trade up to at latest the 8-10 pick in order to draft him.

5. LaVert or RHJ would both be great picks with the Clippers pick.

I'm going to say the C's trade up to grab WCS, and then get LaVert or RHJ with the Clippers pick (or we trade the clippers pick and trade two of our seconds to move up and grab one of those guys).

-Turner to Thabeet comparison is good.  Just not that mobile, agile on the court.  Turner can move a little better but he has a strange running technique that imo will result in injuries sooner or later. Again he does not fit with CBS system overall, only for specific situations (Against Hibbert). But as of late we are making the opposing teams follow our lead (go small)

-  Harrell is not 6'6.  He matched up against Brice Johnson last week and he was only a tad shorter. Brice Johnson is 6'9. Harrell is 6'8

- Everyone want the Celts to move up in the draft. How easy is that? When was the last time anyone can remember a team able to move up to top 5 having a 14th pick for example? bc of the way the salary cap/structure is these days, picks are very valuable to keep/develop

Turner is a big who can block shots and step out and hit the 3. That sounds like a perfect fit for Steven's system. Turner probably won't be ready to play away but he has a ton more potential than Harrell and we need to swing for the fences in the draft because we don't need depth.

Draft Express has Harrell as 6'6.5 in shoes. (6'5 w/o shoes) He's certainly not 6'8.

I agree that we won't move into the top 5 but there have been a bunch of trades where a team moves up into the 8-12 range (Chicago moved up last year)

If Harrell is only 6'7 then thats ok still. He has a long wingspan, 8'11 reach and is explosive off the ground.   
Blake Griffin is only 6'8 with 6'11 wingspan. Faried only 6'7 with 6'11 wingspan.   

Harrell is a more explosive , intense version of Brandon Bass.  Brandon Bass has fit really well under CBS system.

We would not be grabbing Harrell to be a center but he could guard centers occasionally (like Crowder , due to his strength, won't give up position easily), depending what CBS wants to do out on the floor.   

IF Bass is not brought back, Harrell could fill in that mobile, athletic , ability to guard multiple position pf role and provide even more intensity.

I think Faried is a good comp for Harrell. But Harrell's lack of shooting would give you the same spacing problem Faried does for the Nuggets. As to the blake Griffin comparison, Blake is 6'8.5 with out shoes, Harrell is 6'5.5 without shoes. Harrell hasn't given the indication that he will ever be able to shoot like Bass.

Regardless, I don't think you draft a junior who is already what he will be long term vs a player with a higher ceiling (unless the Junior fits a need). We need the player with the higher ceiling. I don't agree that Harrell fits Steven's system either.

I'm not sure what your basing on what kind of player fits CBS system. But from what i have seen, he tends to like playing players who are tough, works extremely hard, versatile defender/guard multiple positions, able to run end to end  on multiple occasions between whistles, good bbiq.   Able to make the open jump shots is nice also

Harrell outside of ability to make jump shot on a consistent basis (he has improved though, and more willing to shoot it then in the past) meets all the other criteria I listed above.   He is also explosive and is a capable rim protector.   

So tell me, why wouldn't he fit under CBS system?  or does he not fit in with what your looking for?

To me Stevens system likes position versatility, floor spacing and ball handlers.

Harrell is an undersized 4 in the NBA. I don't think you can have him guard anything but 4's in the NBA. So I don't see any positional versatility. He isn't a very good shooter so you won't see him space the floor much and he doesn't have any perimeter ball handling skills.

Stevens likes to go small, when he goes small he usually has lineup that consist of 5 shooters or 4 shooters and one big. Harrell can't be in the 5 shooter lineups because he can't shoot, and if you are playing him as your only big, he won't be able to protect the rim like you would want in that lineup.

A good comp for why he wouldn't succeed is Thomas Robinson. 4's that can't either shoot or block shots aren't succeeding as anything more than back ups in todays NBA.

I like him Harrell just not with our first pick because he doesn't have the upside because of his lack of size and age.

I disagree with many of your points. I have watched several Louisville last and this season games and Harrell can defend more than one position. He is all over the court some games.  See the link below from 6:39. He can guard sfs and keep up even with some guards out on the perimeter. He has good lateral quickness.  He is a strong kid and also will make it tough for some centers to gain inside position. Willing to battle on the inside.

The problem with that statement is that he's doing it on the college level. Covering big college stiffs is a far cry from how that'll translate to the next level.

You seem to be all over the place with your player likes, so I can't quite figure you out. However, the one common denominator is that you seem very keen on college basketball stats/production and thinking that means it'll translate on the next level. For me, I'd much rather take the young 18-19 year old freshman with upside, rather than the 21-22 year old (like your guys Kaminsky, Harrell, etc.) with a limited ceiling.

You'd rather have Kaminsky ahead of Turner and Harrell ahead of say, Cliff Alexander, but imagine for a second what those younger players would be doing on the college level at the same age as Kaminsky and Harrell.

but those players haven't. And we don't know if they will.

I value the proof of hard work and accomplishments more than "potential". How many guys with off the charts potential ever reach it??  Russell Westbrook is the last guy I can think of that didn't accomplish much in college to become a star in the NBA.

Would you draft Perry Jones over Jae Crowder?  Jeremy Lamb over Marcus Smart?

something to think about

Those are strange comparisons.  How about these?  Would you draft Embiid over Smart?  The Greek Freak over Olynyk?  The correct answer is everyday and twice on Sunday.

For teams that have mediocre talent at best, the draft should be all about taking the best player available.  NBA readiness, system fit, etc should be tertiary considerations.  The potential for getting a star is worth the risk of a draft pick bust.  Freshman and sophomores drafted for their potential are relatively speaking much more likely to succeed in the NBA than more accomplished juniors and seniors.

That's the sort of thinking that led to freshman Michael Kidd-Gilchrist being selected over junior Damien Lillard.  Or freshman Tyreke Evans and sophomore Jonny Flynn over junior Stephan Curry.

Mike

No, not exactly. Don't you find it ironic that both the players you mentioned (Lillard and Curry) played in smaller schools against weaker competition?

Who did the Greek Freak play against?

And if you need more evidence...

2011 NBA Draft.

#4 Tristan Thompson, freshman from Texas.
#11 Klay Thompson, junior from Washington State.
#16 Nikola Vucevic, junior from USC.

And don't forget...

#30 Jimmy Butler, senior from Marquette.

It's true that great players tend to leave school earlier now.  But plenty of guys who turn out to be busts or average NBA players also leave school earlier as well.

Mike

As I stated before, Ainge should have taken the Greek Freak over KO.  He took the safe accomplished but modest potential player over the raw high potential player who played in a lesser Euro league.  It is exactly the kind of move that I don't want Ainge to make in this draft.
 

[Tr1boy]

Just read over the thread and I got some comments

1. Harrell is a good player but what is his upside? We need players who could some day end up being elite. Drafting a 21 year old 6'6 pf doesn't really have huge upside. If he's available with the Clippers pick we should take him but our pick is too early.

2. I think Kaminsky is a solid player but if he is the best player available we need to trade up. If we pick at 16 I would prefer Portis to Kaminsky but I think we need to go big either way and a good floor spacing big would help.

3. Someone compared Myles Turner to Thabeet. Turner has the chance to be a great shot blocker but he also is extremely skilled. If Thabeet had Turner's offensive game he wouldn't have been a bust.

4. I agree that WCS could drop since I doubt the Jazz, Philly, and Detroit pick a center and there should be 3 or 4 centers drafted ahead of WCS so maybe he slips. However, we will still need to trade up to at latest the 8-10 pick in order to draft him.

5. LaVert or RHJ would both be great picks with the Clippers pick.

I'm going to say the C's trade up to grab WCS, and then get LaVert or RHJ with the Clippers pick (or we trade the clippers pick and trade two of our seconds to move up and grab one of those guys).

-Turner to Thabeet comparison is good.  Just not that mobile, agile on the court.  Turner can move a little better but he has a strange running technique that imo will result in injuries sooner or later. Again he does not fit with CBS system overall, only for specific situations (Against Hibbert). But as of late we are making the opposing teams follow our lead (go small)

-  Harrell is not 6'6.  He matched up against Brice Johnson last week and he was only a tad shorter. Brice Johnson is 6'9. Harrell is 6'8

- Everyone want the Celts to move up in the draft. How easy is that? When was the last time anyone can remember a team able to move up to top 5 having a 14th pick for example? bc of the way the salary cap/structure is these days, picks are very valuable to keep/develop

Turner is a big who can block shots and step out and hit the 3. That sounds like a perfect fit for Steven's system. Turner probably won't be ready to play away but he has a ton more potential than Harrell and we need to swing for the fences in the draft because we don't need depth.

Draft Express has Harrell as 6'6.5 in shoes. (6'5 w/o shoes) He's certainly not 6'8.

I agree that we won't move into the top 5 but there have been a bunch of trades where a team moves up into the 8-12 range (Chicago moved up last year)

If Harrell is only 6'7 then thats ok still. He has a long wingspan, 8'11 reach and is explosive off the ground.   
Blake Griffin is only 6'8 with 6'11 wingspan. Faried only 6'7 with 6'11 wingspan.   

Harrell is a more explosive , intense version of Brandon Bass.  Brandon Bass has fit really well under CBS system.

We would not be grabbing Harrell to be a center but he could guard centers occasionally (like Crowder , due to his strength, won't give up position easily), depending what CBS wants to do out on the floor.   

IF Bass is not brought back, Harrell could fill in that mobile, athletic , ability to guard multiple position pf role and provide even more intensity.

I think Faried is a good comp for Harrell. But Harrell's lack of shooting would give you the same spacing problem Faried does for the Nuggets. As to the blake Griffin comparison, Blake is 6'8.5 with out shoes, Harrell is 6'5.5 without shoes. Harrell hasn't given the indication that he will ever be able to shoot like Bass.

Regardless, I don't think you draft a junior who is already what he will be long term vs a player with a higher ceiling (unless the Junior fits a need). We need the player with the higher ceiling. I don't agree that Harrell fits Steven's system either.

I'm not sure what your basing on what kind of player fits CBS system. But from what i have seen, he tends to like playing players who are tough, works extremely hard, versatile defender/guard multiple positions, able to run end to end  on multiple occasions between whistles, good bbiq.   Able to make the open jump shots is nice also

Harrell outside of ability to make jump shot on a consistent basis (he has improved though, and more willing to shoot it then in the past) meets all the other criteria I listed above.   He is also explosive and is a capable rim protector.   

So tell me, why wouldn't he fit under CBS system?  or does he not fit in with what your looking for?

To me Stevens system likes position versatility, floor spacing and ball handlers.

Harrell is an undersized 4 in the NBA. I don't think you can have him guard anything but 4's in the NBA. So I don't see any positional versatility. He isn't a very good shooter so you won't see him space the floor much and he doesn't have any perimeter ball handling skills.

Stevens likes to go small, when he goes small he usually has lineup that consist of 5 shooters or 4 shooters and one big. Harrell can't be in the 5 shooter lineups because he can't shoot, and if you are playing him as your only big, he won't be able to protect the rim like you would want in that lineup.

A good comp for why he wouldn't succeed is Thomas Robinson. 4's that can't either shoot or block shots aren't succeeding as anything more than back ups in todays NBA.

I like him Harrell just not with our first pick because he doesn't have the upside because of his lack of size and age.

I disagree with many of your points. I have watched several Louisville last and this season games and Harrell can defend more than one position. He is all over the court some games.  See the link below from 6:39. He can guard sfs and keep up even with some guards out on the perimeter. He has good lateral quickness.  He is a strong kid and also will make it tough for some centers to gain inside position. Willing to battle on the inside.

The problem with that statement is that he's doing it on the college level. Covering big college stiffs is a far cry from how that'll translate to the next level.

You seem to be all over the place with your player likes, so I can't quite figure you out. However, the one common denominator is that you seem very keen on college basketball stats/production and thinking that means it'll translate on the next level. For me, I'd much rather take the young 18-19 year old freshman with upside, rather than the 21-22 year old (like your guys Kaminsky, Harrell, etc.) with a limited ceiling.

You'd rather have Kaminsky ahead of Turner and Harrell ahead of say, Cliff Alexander, but imagine for a second what those younger players would be doing on the college level at the same age as Kaminsky and Harrell.

but those players haven't. And we don't know if they will.

I value the proof of hard work and accomplishments more than "potential". How many guys with off the charts potential ever reach it??  Russell Westbrook is the last guy I can think of that didn't accomplish much in college to become a star in the NBA.

Would you draft Perry Jones over Jae Crowder?  Jeremy Lamb over Marcus Smart?

something to think about

Those are strange comparisons.  How about these?  Would you draft Embiid over Smart?  The Greek Freak over Olynyk?  The correct answer is everyday and twice on Sunday.

For teams that have mediocre talent at best, the draft should be all about taking the best player available.  NBA readiness, system fit, etc should be tertiary considerations.  The potential for getting a star is worth the risk of a draft pick bust.  Freshman and sophomores drafted for their potential are relatively speaking much more likely to succeed in the NBA than more accomplished juniors and seniors.

That's the sort of thinking that led to freshman Michael Kidd-Gilchrist being selected over junior Damien Lillard.  Or freshman Tyreke Evans and sophomore Jonny Flynn over junior Stephan Curry.

Mike

No, not exactly. Don't you find it ironic that both the players you mentioned (Lillard and Curry) played in smaller schools against weaker competition?

Who did the Greek Freak play against?

And if you need more evidence...

2011 NBA Draft.

#4 Tristan Thompson, freshman from Texas.
#11 Klay Thompson, junior from Washington State.
#16 Nikola Vucevic, junior from USC.

And don't forget...

#30 Jimmy Butler, senior from Marquette.

It's true that great players tend to leave school earlier now.  But plenty of guys who turn out to be busts or average NBA players also leave school earlier as well.

Mike

As I stated before, Ainge should have taken the Greek Freak over KO.  He took the safe accomplished but modest potential player over the raw high potential player who played in a lesser Euro league.  It is exactly the kind of move that I don't want Ainge to make in this draft.
 

What has the greek freak accomplished so far? Danny saw him live before skipping on him on draft night . so did 12-13 other gms.   I like parts of the greek freaks game but he has some major holes. As does KO.  To say he was clearly better pick, nobody knows that yet. 

And like i have stated earlier a freshman considered in the top 5-7 level talent is not the same as a freshman in the 12-17 or 20-30 pick levels.  If the celts are picking 12-15, i rather pick an accomplished sophomore/junior vs a freshman that didnt accomplish much but is considered highly regarded bc he has a 7'5 wingspan. Like Myles Turner

There is a very short list of freshmen picked in the 12-30 areas that have managed to have  successful careers in the nba.

[chambers]

Bobby Portis is creeping up there... pick#13 on DX
Jerian Grant may creep up aswell.
If we could land those two with our picks I'd be stoked...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6gGmCBTFyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPcCtOTDGKc

[Tr1boy]

Hollis jefferson vs texas southern
23 points , 10 rebounds. Watch out for this guy as Arizona goes deeper into the tourney

[Eddie20]

Hollis jefferson vs texas southern
23 points , 10 rebounds. Watch out for this guy as Arizona goes deeper into the tourney

I like him a lot. Wingspan of 7-1!! He just needs to improve his perimeter game, but he has all the tools physically you want in a wing player.

[Eddie20]

These are our picks and the players listed are who Ford has ranked during those slots. On the later picks I'll include the 2 players projected below and after our selection for an overall idea.


1st rd / 10-16 (16 if we make the playoffs and are the 7th seed, 15 if we are the 8th)

Winslow
Oubre
S. Johnson
Kaminsky
Portis
Booker
Pope

1st rd / 24

Poeltl
Rozier
Hollis-Jefferson
Wright
Dekker

2nd rd / 33

J. Anderson
N. Hayes
J. Martin
Wood
D. Johnson

2nd rd / 42

J. Jackson
J. Layman
T. Williams
Upshaw
McCullough


A lot of options, especially at SF.

We'll be participating in both the Orlando and Vegas summer leagues so it'll be really fun watching these picks play alongside Smart and Young (Olynyk too perhaps since we want to continue to give him reps).

[Evantime34]

These are our picks and the players listed are who Ford has ranked during those slots. On the later picks I'll include the 2 players projected below and after our selection for an overall idea.


1st rd / 10-16 (16 if we make the playoffs and are the 7th seed, 15 if we are the 8th)

Winslow
Oubre
S. Johnson
Kaminsky
Portis
Booker
Pope

1st rd / 24

Poeltl
Rozier
Hollis-Jefferson
Wright
Dekker

2nd rd / 33

J. Anderson
N. Hayes
J. Martin
Wood
D. Johnson

2nd rd / 42

J. Jackson
J. Layman
T. Williams
Upshaw
McCullough


A lot of options, especially at SF.

We'll be participating in both the Orlando and Vegas summer leagues so it'll be really fun watching these picks play alongside Smart and Young (Olynyk too perhaps since we want to continue to give him reps).

Good list, I agree with most of the names. I predict Nigel Hayes plays well in Wisconsin's tournament run and skyrocket up the board. I think he's great.

[TwinTower14]

These are our picks and the players listed are who Ford has ranked during those slots. On the later picks I'll include the 2 players projected below and after our selection for an overall idea.


1st rd / 10-16 (16 if we make the playoffs and are the 7th seed, 15 if we are the 8th)

Winslow
Oubre
S. Johnson
Kaminsky
Portis
Booker
Pope

1st rd / 24

Poeltl
Rozier
Hollis-Jefferson
Wright
Dekker

2nd rd / 33

J. Anderson
N. Hayes
J. Martin
Wood
D. Johnson

2nd rd / 42

J. Jackson
J. Layman
T. Williams
Upshaw
McCullough


A lot of options, especially at SF.

We'll be participating in both the Orlando and Vegas summer leagues so it'll be really fun watching these picks play alongside Smart and Young (Olynyk too perhaps since we want to continue to give him reps).

Is J. Jackson, Justin Jackson from UNC??  If, so no way he enters the draft.  He is at least a two or three year player at UNC. Being a UNC fan and reading up on him during high school and stuff, I don't see him as a one and done...

[Eddie20]

These are our picks and the players listed are who Ford has ranked during those slots. On the later picks I'll include the 2 players projected below and after our selection for an overall idea.


1st rd / 10-16 (16 if we make the playoffs and are the 7th seed, 15 if we are the 8th)

Winslow
Oubre
S. Johnson
Kaminsky
Portis
Booker
Pope

1st rd / 24

Poeltl
Rozier
Hollis-Jefferson
Wright
Dekker

2nd rd / 33

J. Anderson
N. Hayes
J. Martin
Wood
D. Johnson

2nd rd / 42

J. Jackson
J. Layman
T. Williams
Upshaw
McCullough


A lot of options, especially at SF.

We'll be participating in both the Orlando and Vegas summer leagues so it'll be really fun watching these picks play alongside Smart and Young (Olynyk too perhaps since we want to continue to give him reps).

Is J. Jackson, Justin Jackson from UNC??  If, so no way he enters the draft.  He is at least a two or three year player at UNC. Being a UNC fan and reading up on him during high school and stuff, I don't see him as a one and done...

Yeah, that's him.

[Eddie20]

These are our picks and the players listed are who Ford has ranked during those slots. On the later picks I'll include the 2 players projected below and after our selection for an overall idea.


1st rd / 10-16 (16 if we make the playoffs and are the 7th seed, 15 if we are the 8th)

Winslow
Oubre
S. Johnson
Kaminsky
Portis
Booker
Pope

1st rd / 24

Poeltl
Rozier
Hollis-Jefferson
Wright
Dekker

2nd rd / 33

J. Anderson
N. Hayes
J. Martin
Wood
D. Johnson

2nd rd / 42

J. Jackson
J. Layman
T. Williams
Upshaw
McCullough


A lot of options, especially at SF.

We'll be participating in both the Orlando and Vegas summer leagues so it'll be really fun watching these picks play alongside Smart and Young (Olynyk too perhaps since we want to continue to give him reps).

Good list, I agree with most of the names. I predict Nigel Hayes plays well in Wisconsin's tournament run and skyrocket up the board. I think he's great.

The biggest drop off, in terms of talent, is in 10-16. Going from a top SF prospect (Winslow, Oubre, Johnson) to have some of the other guys in that range is tough. I want to make the playoffs, but this aspect of it does make me consider that somewhat.

[jonaslopes]

Our pick:
Winslow
Kaminsky
Poeltl

Clippers pick:
Dekker
Christian Wood
Tyus Jones
Hollis-Jefferson

2nd round picks:
Hernangomez
Vezenkov
Vaughn
Layman