TD Garden: Should it be replaced or upgraded? (merged)

[Celtics#18]

The Nets rank 18th in the NBA in terms of percentage of seats filled per game.  They rank 20th in fans per game.

The Magic play in the second newest arena in the NBA.  They rank 25th in terms of percentage of seats sold, and 21st in fans per game.

Your premise might be faulty.
[/quote]

Thank you for bringing this up. I think there are a range of options to
explore to bring down the costs

[Celtics#18]

I think fans have always and will always dish out the money for good quality services. Again Brooklyn has a less loyal fanbase yet have no problem filling an arena. Also I think a multi-purpose arena could severely bring down costs. Brooklyn has better amenities and people are willing to pay for it. Proof is in the attendances.

The Nets rank 18th in the NBA in terms of percentage of seats filled per game.  They rank 20th in fans per game.

The Magic play in the second newest arena in the NBA.  They rank 25th in terms of percentage of seats sold, and 21st in fans per game.

Your premise might be faulty.

Brooklyn may rank 18th but that ranking is misleading.
Because the percentage of the arena filled is 93.6 percent. Which is better than the celtics 93.3 percent. While the magic had 88 percent of the arena filled. Though these aren't perfect numbers if you make a scatter plot or histogram Brooklyn and Magics pct of area filled aren't outliner in comparison to all the teams.
The Knicks have 100 percent of the arena filled on average and they offer the most amenities and are the most expensive arena.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

[D.o.s.]

The Knicks have 100 percent of the arena filled on average and they offer the most amenities and are the most expensive arena.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Because it's Madison Square Garden. Because New York is one of basketball's Meccas. Because it's Manhattan. To a large extent, that holds true for the Barclay's Center as well -- when you're in one of the two largest media markets in the world, and one of the two biggest metropoli in the country, those numbers are to be expected.

Trickle Down Economics
Bigger Jubo tron
More Affordable Box seats closer to the action
Watch the game from your own private terrace with 16 luxury padded Directors’ armchairs or view the game from the comfort of your suite
Dedicated private entrance and lift to your suite
Access to your box three hours before the game and two hours post-game
Option to brand and personalise your suite
Complimentary use of your suite for non-game meetings*
42” plasma, surround sound TV and Wi-Fi technology
Allocation of standard game tickets for home and away games*
VIP pitch side matchday tour*
Five-course gourmet a la carte menu
Half-time and full-time refreshments
Full complimentary bar in your suite including signature wines and champagne
Gift of a framed signed shirt
Eight reserved car parking spaces included
Matchday programmes

These are just copied and pasted buzzwords and marketing speak from the ManU website:
http://www.executiveclub.manutd.com/Hospitality%20Options/Centennial%20Club/Centennial%20Club%20Suites.aspx

aside from the bolded, which made me cry and laugh at the same time.

Read this post again, dude:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

And again:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

And again:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

Because it's exactly the point that you're missing -- a new, Celtics-only stadium doesn't erase the TD Garden, or whatever arena the Bruins are in under your weird scenario where the two teams split housing. And Boston isn't metropolitan New York (not sure if you'd noticed), so there's hardly the infrastructure to support another arena for a sports team that isn't the Patriots or the Red Sox.

[Mike]

Amedities include but not limited too

Private Suite holder entrance and lobby
Private suite level washrooms
Multiple flat-panel televisions in every where
Wet bar and refrigerator
Reserved parking
Private club-guest only entry into the arena
Climate-controlled lounges with comfortable seating
Flat panel HD TVs
Upscale cuisine offerings to all and easily accessible to fans
Wider, cushioned seats with cup holders
Opportunity to purchase tickets to concerts and other stadium events (subject to availability)
Club seat/ box seats closer to the action

These mostly seem like amenities that would affect the wealthiest/corporate season ticket holders.  I don't think I'm much different from the average season ticket holder, and the only amenity on that list that I might enjoy is wider seats (loge seats are already cushioned with cup holders, no?)  I'm baffled by the need for flat panel HD TVs... aren't we there to watch a live product!?  We already have the jumbotron and TVs in the concourse.

While newer arenas may have fancier offerings, I really don't think the average fan cares or even notices, as long as the in-game production is entertaining, and the team plays hard every night.

[bdm860]

I think fans have always and will always dish out the money for good quality services. Again Brooklyn has a less loyal fanbase yet have no problem filling an arena. Also I think a multi-purpose arena could severely bring down costs. Brooklyn has better amenities and people are willing to pay for it. Proof is in the attendances.

The Nets rank 18th in the NBA in terms of percentage of seats filled per game.  They rank 20th in fans per game.

The Magic play in the second newest arena in the NBA.  They rank 25th in terms of percentage of seats sold, and 21st in fans per game.

Your premise might be faulty.

Brooklyn may rank 18th but that ranking is misleading.
Because the percentage of the arena filled is 93.6 percent. Which is better than the celtics 93.3 percent. While the magic had 88 percent of the arena filled. Though these aren't perfect numbers if you make a scatter plot or histogram Brooklyn and Magics pct of area filled aren't outliner in comparison to all the teams.
The Knicks have 100 percent of the arena filled on average and they offer the most amenities and are the most expensive arena.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

But is Brooklyn making money?  Right from the article you posted to start off this thread:

Ticket and concession sales are booming at the glass and weathered steel-fronted sports and entertainment complex which has seen more than 2 million customers come through its doors and is now ranked as the country’s No.1 concert venue.

While profits are lagging because of the high cost of running the arena , Forest City Ratner executive chairman Bruce Ratner calls the Barclays Center “a great financial success.”

So ya, they fill the arena and it's a very popular spot, but at what cost?

Having a lot of revenue drivers and being filled to capacity don't necessarily lead to profits.

That Daily News article you listed actually tells a different story if you read between the lines.  behind the rah-rah everything is fantastic spin from politicians and executives with no stats to back it, you have tidbits like these:

Not everyone is enjoying the party. Some local merchants say a much expected jump in sales has yet to materialize.

Others say the number of jobs created is coming up short when measured against the hundreds of millions in public subsidies invested in the project.

“It is good to have jobs created in this part of Brooklyn, no doubt,” said Gib Veconi, treasurer of the Prospect Heights Neighborhood Development Council which has sued Forest City Ratner and the Empire State Development Corp. over delays at Atlantic Yards, which has slowed down the project’s planned affordable housing. “But for the government subsidies received, many more living wage jobs should have been created.”

Davidson added that a much-anticipated “trickle effect” from the Barclays Center has yet to happen for many merchants in her district. “The arena is working with Forest City Ratner and the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce to come up with some ideas to get visitors to visit our establishments,” she said.

The landlords made money no doubt, but it's not really clear who else is making money there.  It definitely costs more to be a fan going to Nets games that's for sure.

[Celtics#18]

The Knicks have 100 percent of the arena filled on average and they offer the most amenities and are the most expensive arena.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Because it's Madison Square Garden. Because New York is one of basketball's Meccas. Because it's Manhattan. To a large extent, that holds true for the Barclay's Center as well -- when you're in one of the two largest media markets in the world, and one of the two biggest metropoli in the country, those numbers are to be expected.

Trickle Down Economics
Bigger Jubo tron
More Affordable Box seats closer to the action
Watch the game from your own private terrace with 16 luxury padded Directors’ armchairs or view the game from the comfort of your suite
Dedicated private entrance and lift to your suite
Access to your box three hours before the game and two hours post-game
Option to brand and personalise your suite
Complimentary use of your suite for non-game meetings*
42” plasma, surround sound TV and Wi-Fi technology
Allocation of standard game tickets for home and away games*
VIP pitch side matchday tour*
Five-course gourmet a la carte menu
Half-time and full-time refreshments
Full complimentary bar in your suite including signature wines and champagne
Gift of a framed signed shirt
Eight reserved car parking spaces included
Matchday programmes

These are just copied and pasted buzzwords and marketing speak from the ManU website:
http://www.executiveclub.manutd.com/Hospitality%20Options/Centennial%20Club/Centennial%20Club%20Suites.aspx

aside from the bolded, which made me cry and laugh at the same time.

Read this post again, dude:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

And again:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

And again:

This whole premise is based on the fact the OP feels the. Celtics would actually want to pony up the $500-$750 million it would take to build an arena in a market that would have extreme competition for booking all the other year round events that are necessary to afford building such an arena.

Because it's exactly the point that you're missing -- a new, Celtics-only stadium doesn't erase the TD Garden, or whatever arena the Bruins are in under your weird scenario where the two teams split housing. And Boston isn't metropolitan New York (not sure if you'd noticed), so there's hardly the infrastructure to support another arena for a sports team that isn't the Patriots or the Red Sox.

I said in the beginning that I'm for Renevation and for there to be partial celtics ownership in TD bank north. I think it's vital for the Celtics to have some ownership in TD bank North. I'm for offering as many amenities to fans that are compatible to what other establishments are offering. Regardless if ManU offers good amenities to their fans.  I'm just wondering whether it's cheaper to totally upgrade The TD Garden or to build another arena.

 

[D.o.s.]

It's almost certainly cheaper to upgrade the Garden. Why is partial ownership important to you? As a fan with (I presume) no fiscal interest in the team, what difference does it make?

I think fans have always and will always dish out the money for good quality services. Again Brooklyn has a less loyal fanbase yet have no problem filling an arena. Also I think a multi-purpose arena could severely bring down costs. Brooklyn has better amenities and people are willing to pay for it. Proof is in the attendances.

The Nets rank 18th in the NBA in terms of percentage of seats filled per game.  They rank 20th in fans per game.

The Magic play in the second newest arena in the NBA.  They rank 25th in terms of percentage of seats sold, and 21st in fans per game.

Your premise might be faulty.

Brooklyn may rank 18th but that ranking is misleading.
Because the percentage of the arena filled is 93.6 percent. Which is better than the celtics 93.3 percent. While the magic had 88 percent of the arena filled. Though these aren't perfect numbers if you make a scatter plot or histogram Brooklyn and Magics pct of area filled aren't outliner in comparison to all the teams.
The Knicks have 100 percent of the arena filled on average and they offer the most amenities and are the most expensive arena.
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

But is Brooklyn making money?  Right from the article you posted to start off this thread:

Ticket and concession sales are booming at the glass and weathered steel-fronted sports and entertainment complex which has seen more than 2 million customers come through its doors and is now ranked as the country’s No.1 concert venue.

While profits are lagging because of the high cost of running the arena , Forest City Ratner executive chairman Bruce Ratner calls the Barclays Center “a great financial success.”

So ya, they fill the arena and it's a very popular spot, but at what cost?

Having a lot of revenue drivers and being filled to capacity don't necessarily lead to profits.

That Daily News article you listed actually tells a different story if you read between the lines.  behind the rah-rah everything is fantastic spin from politicians and executives with no stats to back it, you have tidbits like these:

Not everyone is enjoying the party. Some local merchants say a much expected jump in sales has yet to materialize.

Others say the number of jobs created is coming up short when measured against the hundreds of millions in public subsidies invested in the project.

“It is good to have jobs created in this part of Brooklyn, no doubt,” said Gib Veconi, treasurer of the Prospect Heights Neighborhood Development Council which has sued Forest City Ratner and the Empire State Development Corp. over delays at Atlantic Yards, which has slowed down the project’s planned affordable housing. “But for the government subsidies received, many more living wage jobs should have been created.”

Davidson added that a much-anticipated “trickle effect” from the Barclays Center has yet to happen for many merchants in her district. “The arena is working with Forest City Ratner and the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce to come up with some ideas to get visitors to visit our establishments,” she said.

The landlords made money no doubt, but it's not really clear who else is making money there.  It definitely costs more to be a fan going to Nets games that's for sure.

The (lack of) merit to trickle down economics doesn't really need to be debated in 2015, does it?

[Celtics#18]

Partial Ownership for the Celtics is important for several reasons

First: I'm a fan for the team's well being and ownership in the Garden would open up more revenue streams.

Second:having ownership in the Garden would give them the flexibility to offer more basketball oriented amenities.   

Third: if Celtics fans desire change to the garden management has little control in what they can do to facilitate that change. That wouldn't be the case if they had partial ownership.

The trickle down thing was a joke. Yes it has no merit in the 21st century and is a separate debate.

D.o.s I said that if we were to build our own arena it'll have to be multi purpose facility like the Warriors new arena. But I like the idea of upgrading the Garden.

D.o.s What uprades to the garden would you like to see? If any? 
 

[D.o.s.]

Well, in order: I want our team to be better, I want our fans to be less boorish, and I want the ticket, beer, and merch prices to be lower. Those aren't Garden upgrades, though, but I'm pretty egalitarian when I go to games. I don't have a smart phone, so I don't care about WiFi (although I'm sympathetic to reporters who have to cover the game). Handicap accessibility is a good one.

[Celtics#18]

Well, in order: I want our team to be better, I want our fans to be less boorish, and I want the ticket, beer, and merch prices to be lower. Those aren't Garden upgrades, though, but I'm pretty egalitarian when I go to games. I don't have a smart phone, so I don't care about WiFi (although I'm sympathetic to reporters who have to cover the game). Handicap accessibility is a good one.

D.o.s wider seats for overweight people

[Celtics#18]

I think if Simen got into developing a multipurpose shopping, dining and ect area it will bring down costs of stadium upgrades

[Celtics#18]

bdm860 What upgrades would you like too see? D.o.s I appreciate you sharing what change you'd like too see with the garden.

[nickagneta]

One of the reasons that the Barclay's Center isn't profitable is because they have direct competition with MSG for all the music events that happen in the city. MSG is like  the third busiest concert venue in the world. The money they generate off of events that aren't the Rangers or Knicks is the most any team who owns their own building makes in the NBA. Barclay's just can't compete with that and they can beat the allure of MSG and aren't going to bring in that extra revnue because of the competition.

With a Celtics only owned arena in Boston, the same thing would happen that's happening to Barclay's, it would become unprofitable and before you know it the Celtics will be up for sale.

[Celtics#18]

One of the reasons that the Barclay's Center isn't profitable is because they have direct competition with MSG for all the music events that happen in the city. MSG is like  the third busiest concert venue in the world. The money they generate off of events that aren't the Rangers or Knicks is the most any team who owns their own building makes in the NBA. Barclay's just can't compete with that and they can beat the allure of MSG and aren't going to bring in that extra revnue because of the competition.

With a Celtics only owned arena in Boston, the same thing would happen that's happening to Barclay's, it would become unprofitable and before you know it the Celtics will be up for sale.

Fair point. Do you think the Celtics should have part ownership in the Garden? Do you think the Garden needs major upgrades? If so what needs to be upgraded?

[ChainSmokingLikeDino]

This is so stupid.

A lot of folks for some reason entertaining this weird argument from the intern at some marketing or building company trying to gather some (absurd) research to make a pitch to his boss who can make a pitch to The Celtics about some scenario that isn't even a reality.