Rookie Rondo vs. Rookie Smart?

[MBunge]

It's worth pointing out that Smart is getting his numbers on a team that desperately needs and wants him to be a leader and play very well.

Rondo got his numbers on a team that didn't need that in the same way at all.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean or even to what it refers.  Turner, Bradley and Sully have all clearly been higher on Stevens' list than Smart for virtually the entire season.

Mike

[Eja117]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos?

Uh...yeah.  Four open Rondos, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn.

Mike

Except that he had a significantly higher fg% his rookie year and a very similar free throw percentage than Smart. So if rookie Rondo can't hit the broad side of a barn rookie Smart can't hit the broad side of an aircraft carrier or possibly an IKEA.

[Eja117]

It's worth pointing out that Smart is getting his numbers on a team that desperately needs and wants him to be a leader and play very well.

Rondo got his numbers on a team that didn't need that in the same way at all.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean or even to what it refers.  Turner, Bradley and Sully have all clearly been higher on Stevens' list than Smart for virtually the entire season.

Mike

Well that's because they are showing an ability to play NBA basketball, which is something rookie Rondo also did

[jpotter33]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos?

Uh...yeah.  Four open Rondos, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn.

Mike

Except that he had a significantly higher fg% his rookie year and a very similar free throw percentage than Smart. So if rookie Rondo can't hit the broad side of a barn rookie Smart can't hit the broad side of an aircraft carrier or possibly an IKEA.

Kind of a big difference between the shots Smart is taking and the layups that Rondo was taking. Yes, his shot selection is suspect at times, but to compare the two without mentioning that major fact is kind of ridiculous. The two players' shooting ability is not even close, and even the most ardent Rondo fans should be admitting that.

[Eja117]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos?

Uh...yeah.  Four open Rondos, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn.

Mike

Except that he had a significantly higher fg% his rookie year and a very similar free throw percentage than Smart. So if rookie Rondo can't hit the broad side of a barn rookie Smart can't hit the broad side of an aircraft carrier or possibly an IKEA.

Kind of a big difference between the shots Smart is taking and the layups that Rondo was taking. Yes, his shot selection is suspect at times, but to compare the two without mentioning that major fact is kind of ridiculous. The two players' shooting ability is not even close, and even the most ardent Rondo fans should be admitting that.

Smart hits 2% higher on his field goals than on his 35% he hits from three point land and this is evidence that he is a dramatically BETTER shooter than Rondo? When he hits 67% from ft land? So the theory here is that Smart is going to outshoot Rondo or something? There is no way on Earth one can make the statement that Smart is a good shooter. So if someone wants to say Rondo is a bad shooter, fine, but then so is Smart, and Rondo will get the rebound.

[BigAlTheFuture]

Smart IS a way better shooter than Rookie Rondo or prime Rondo or present Rondo. Whichever Rondo you want to use, but Smart is significantly better in that category. That FG% argument is extremely flawed. Just because Rondo had a higher % doesn't mean he's a better shooter. It's obvious if you actually watch. Opponents play at least 5-10 feet away from Rondo on the perimeter. Opponents actually respect Smart's shot.

What I've gotten from reading this debate is that people siding with Rondo are extremely bias. 5 Rookie Rondos would not slaughter 5 Rookie Smarts. Rondo will always be appreciated for his time with us, and we will be lucky if Smart eventually reaches the level of pre-injury, prime Rondo. But if we're strictly judging by their rookie seasons, I don't see much of a difference. Rookie Rondo and Rookie Smart both leave us a lot to be excited about. Except I'm more confident in Smart than I was with Rondo.

[Eja117]

Smart IS a way better shooter than Rookie Rondo or prime Rondo or present Rondo. Whichever Rondo you want to use, but Smart is significantly better in that category. That FG% argument is extremely flawed. Just because Rondo had a higher % doesn't mean he's a better shooter. It's obvious if you actually watch. Opponents play at least 5-10 feet away from Rondo on the perimeter. Opponents actually respect Smart's shot.

What I've gotten from reading this debate is that people siding with Rondo are extremely bias. 5 Rookie Rondos would not slaughter 5 Rookie Smarts. Rondo will always be appreciated for his time with us, and we will be lucky if Smart eventually reaches the level of pre-injury, prime Rondo. But if we're strictly judging by their rookie seasons, I don't see much of a difference. Rookie Rondo and Rookie Smart both leave us a lot to be excited about. Except I'm more confident in Smart than I was with Rondo.

When you shoot fts there's nobody in front of you or 5 feet off you. It was 65% to 67%. There is no way to conclude that Smart is a significantly better shooter.  If Rondo knows he's not as good from further out and then makes better shot selections and goes to the hoop more then he can effectively be a better shooter. 
If Smart is a good shooter the league is suddenly flooded with good shooters. B Jennings, OJ Mayo, Nick Young, A Bradley, whoever. They're all good shooters. You don't need to be good from the field or the line. You just have to shoot.

[colincb]

The truth lies somewhere inbetween. For example: Kobe made all defense 2nd team in 2012 and all-nba in 2013-- that's laughable, or a tip of the hat, depending on how you want to look at it.

That's not a good comp. Rondo didn't make make all-D starting as a soph because of lifetime achievement or because the media loved him.

As a rookie Rondo had the top defensive rating on a mediocre defensive team with Perk as center, was 5th or 6th among PGs depending on qualifying minutes, was 2nd to Ty Thomas among rookies, and led the NBA in steal% (which is unrelated to defensive rating per 100 possession). Next two years he was top 10 and top PG in defensive rating with Perk as center (and KG as PF for 1+ years). In 11-12 he was top 10 and top PG again with post-injury KG as center. Among active players, he has still has a top 10 career defensive rating and first among PGs by a healthy margin.

I'm having difficulty reconciling those honors and stats to the idea that Rondo was just a good defender based upon a bunch of opinions that offer few comparison to his peers. Rondo was clearly a superior defender when compared to other PGs. Next best active career defensive rating PGs are CP and Parker. They're both pretty far behind and had some great defensive centers (Chandler, Okafor, Jordan, and Duncan) in back of them too. After that, there's no other PG on the horizon. By my eyeballs Rondo was by far the best among his PG peers too.

[D.o.s.]

The truth lies somewhere inbetween. For example: Kobe made all defense 2nd team in 2012 and all-nba in 2013-- that's laughable, or a tip of the hat, depending on how you want to look at it.

That's not a good comp. Rondo didn't make make all-D starting as a soph because of lifetime achievement or because the media loved him.

That's not my intent. You're holding up All-defense votes like they're unimpeachable -- clearly they're not.

[colincb]

The truth lies somewhere inbetween. For example: Kobe made all defense 2nd team in 2012 and all-nba in 2013-- that's laughable, or a tip of the hat, depending on how you want to look at it.

That's not a good comp. Rondo didn't make make all-D starting as a soph because of lifetime achievement or because the media loved him.

That's not my intent. You're holding up All-defense votes like they're unimpeachable -- clearly they're not.

The stats back up those votes and that tops unsupported opinions from people with an obvious axe to grind in my book.

[MBunge]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos?

Uh...yeah.  Four open Rondos, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn.

Mike

Except that he had a significantly higher fg% his rookie year and a very similar free throw percentage than Smart. So if rookie Rondo can't hit the broad side of a barn rookie Smart can't hit the broad side of an aircraft carrier or possibly an IKEA.

And now you are just being ridiculous.  Rondo could not shoot a lick as a rookie.  He could get to the rim, better than what we've seen from Smart so far, but part of that was because the other four defenders had to stay with their guys, just about all of whom were much better jump shooters than Rondo was or is today.  But put 5 Rondos on the court and 4 of the defenders can just ignore them if they're more than 15 feet away from the basket.

Mike

[MBunge]

It's worth pointing out that Smart is getting his numbers on a team that desperately needs and wants him to be a leader and play very well.

Rondo got his numbers on a team that didn't need that in the same way at all.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean or even to what it refers.  Turner, Bradley and Sully have all clearly been higher on Stevens' list than Smart for virtually the entire season.

Mike

Well that's because they are showing an ability to play NBA basketball, which is something rookie Rondo also did

So even you admit that your original claim was unintelligible bile.

Mike

[MBunge]

And just in case anyone wonders...

Rondo shot 43.2% from 2 as a rookie and 20.7% from three.

Smart, with 31 games still to go in his rookie year, is shooting 40% from 2 and 35% from 3.

Smart, however, has a worse overall shooting % because he is shooting 3.8 attempts from 3 a game while Rondo only shot .4 attempts from 3 a game.

Yes, Smart is shooting over 9 times more often from three, which gives us a pretty clear view of how worthless rookie Rondo was on offense outside the lane.

Mike

[TwinTower14]

The thing that jumps out between these two is that smart improved his shot more in 40 games than Rondo did in 9 years....

[Eja117]

Ok, so did Rondo's bad shot somehow prevent him from being a very good player? And since Smart's shot is so good what is preventing him? Is it possible there are other basketball skills that Rondo mastered that Smart is barely scratching the surface of?