Rookie Rondo vs. Rookie Smart?

[jpotter33]

There is no coincidence that we are playing better since the trade.

Let's be clear.  The schedule has been massively easier since the trade.  Not only was it filled with teams that were crappier by every ranking, we even had the good fortune to hit some of the few "good" teams when they were missing star players.

It will continue to be easy for the next 5 games.

Then it will be harder for the following 12 (though nowhere near as difficult as November and early December were).

Then it gets easier again.

What is clear...is having a west coast trip with back to backs with different time zones and higher altitudes is not a massively easier schedule. Does doesn't matter who you play, it is still tough.

This is a comment I wrote on a post the other day, and it pretty much invalidates this whole notion that the only reason we've won more games without Rondo is due to the strength of the schedule. Not only do we have a higher winning percentage, we also have more "notable" wins against good teams than we did with Rondo. So, there's that.

"Actually, it's 8-14 vs. 12-17. So winning percentage w/Rondo .363 and w/out Rondo .413.

W/out Rondo: Bulls (Rondo missed this game), Timberwolves, Kings, Nets, New Orleans, Trail Blazers, Nuggets, Jazz, Knicks, Nuggets, 76ers, Hawks - 12-17

W/Rondo: Brooklyn, Pacers, 76ers, Pistons, Lakers, Washington, 76ers, Magic - 8-14

And, if anything, the quality of competition is harder post-Rondo with more notable wins without him than with him."

[MBunge]

There is no coincidence that we are playing better since the trade.

Let's be clear.  The schedule has been massively easier since the trade.  Not only was it filled with teams that were crappier by every ranking, we even had the good fortune to hit some of the few "good" teams when they were missing star players.

It will continue to be easy for the next 5 games.

Then it will be harder for the following 12 (though nowhere near as difficult as November and early December were).

Then it gets easier again.

Let's also be clear that Rondo is a veteran all-star who was playing with Jeff Green and KO.  Trades and injuries have left us with a less talented roster winning games recently.

But again, this season is going to put an end to a lot of the debate over Rondo.

Mike

[Tr1boy]

Perfectly reasonable debate...they play(ed) for the same team as rookies etc.

Obviously, apples and oranges, the two share little in the style department.

Rondo has a handle, comparatively, Smart does not.

Rondo is an assist machine to the point of setting records on a team that has the most records.
Smart is finding his groove, but, I don't think his assist numbers will ever be gaudy.

Someone used this descriptor here last week.

Smart is a terror on defense. Rondo is a good defender.

For an old Boston Celtics fan "terror on defense" is just about all there is. What this dynamic creates for a team on the floor is difficult to quantify. Russell/Garnett required the opponent's coach to plan for them.

Adjustments would have to be made etc, but, that is not the da&* point. The opposing players/coach had a little KG running around INSIDE of their heads for the whole game yelling at them.

Should Smaht get enough of this juju going for his self? The enemy will be ours.

Maybe you're referring to where the two players are as of today, but if not... Rondo was 1st team all defense twice and 2nd team twice. Among active players he has the 8th best careerr defensive rating per 100 possessions. That qualifies as something better than 'good,' especially among point guards.

Rondo made the all defensive team with kg, perk, allen in the lineup. Rondo cheated alot to get steals.

Overall he was a good defender. Tried on 1 on 1 situations back then

Smart without a shot blocker is truly a defensive machine. He is like an defensive anchor but does not play the pf nor c position. Rare

[Eja117]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

[jpotter33]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Absolute non-sense; you've got it switched around if anything. Without the aid of screens, I think Smart could do very well for the most part with keeping in front of Rondo, and without a reliable shot he'd be totally reliant on drives and finishing, which would zap his energy greatly. Rondo couldn't deal with Smart's size and strength on offense (and defense), because he could just bully him down to the post every possession and work his post up game. If that didn't work, he could use his much more reliable jumper to his advantage. I don't see Smart getting past Rondo on many drives, but his versatility would make him much more likely to dominate Rondo than the other way around.

[Eja117]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Absolute non-sense; you've got it switched around if anything. Without the aid of screens, I think Smart could do very well for the most part with keeping in front of Rondo, and without a reliable shot he'd be totally reliant on drives and finishing, which would zap his energy greatly. Rondo couldn't deal with Smart's size and strength on offense (and defense), because he could just bully him down to the post every possession and work his post up game. If that didn't work, he could use his much more reliable jumper to his advantage. I don't see Smart getting past Rondo on many drives, but his versatility would make him much more likely to dominate Rondo than the other way around.

Yes. Smart is a good defender. But you have a good defender confused with a wall. Rondo has played very well many many times against the best players on the biggest stage.

Smart did great against Harden, but was powerless against Rondo and that wasn't exactly peak Rondo.   The game wouldn't be 5 one on ones.  Rondo's bball IQ compared to Smart is like Einstein vs Gump. 

Smart is simply not that good of a shooter that he's getting out of this and rookie Rondo is also fully capable of staying in front of Smart. If the game has to be decided by passing and rebounding Smart has no chance whatsoever

[D.o.s.]

But again, this season is going to put an end to a lot of the debate over Rondo.

Mike

You know, somehow I doubt it.

[Rondo9]

But again, this season is going to put an end to a lot of the debate over Rondo.

Mike

You know, somehow I doubt it.

I'll bet In 50 years, the debate will still rage on.

[colincb]

Perfectly reasonable debate...they play(ed) for the same team as rookies etc.

Obviously, apples and oranges, the two share little in the style department.

Rondo has a handle, comparatively, Smart does not.

Rondo is an assist machine to the point of setting records on a team that has the most records.
Smart is finding his groove, but, I don't think his assist numbers will ever be gaudy.

Someone used this descriptor here last week.

Smart is a terror on defense. Rondo is a good defender.

For an old Boston Celtics fan "terror on defense" is just about all there is. What this dynamic creates for a team on the floor is difficult to quantify. Russell/Garnett required the opponent's coach to plan for them.

Adjustments would have to be made etc, but, that is not the da&* point. The opposing players/coach had a little KG running around INSIDE of their heads for the whole game yelling at them.

Should Smaht get enough of this juju going for his self? The enemy will be ours.

Maybe you're referring to where the two players are as of today, but if not... Rondo was 1st team all defense twice and 2nd team twice. Among active players he has the 8th best careerr defensive rating per 100 possessions. That qualifies as something better than 'good,' especially among point guards.

Let's be honest for a moment.  Rondo made the All-NBA Defensive squad BECAUSE he played off his player and roamed and went for steals.  He could do that BECAUSE he had KG covering his back when his man consistently got by him due to his hedging. 

Smitty77

Yes, let's be honest. Rondo didn't get VOTED all-defense 4 times because he sucked as a defender and the VOTERS were a lot dumber than you.

[D.o.s.]

The truth lies somewhere inbetween. For example: Kobe made all defense 2nd team in 2012 and all-nba in 2013-- that's laughable, or a tip of the hat, depending on how you want to look at it.

[Eja117]

This whole revisionism of Rondo as a not so great defender has been very cute. I get the "Rondo had KG and Perk behind him" bit. He had Al J and Powe and PJ behind him too. Does anyone ever remember thinking "Man. When PJ Brown comes into the game Rondo just can't defend"?

As long as we are getting into this kind of revision I'd like to offer a few different ones.

Ray was only a great three point shooter because Rondo could get him open looks and then rebound his misses.

KG was only a good defender because he had Rondo in front of him. Has he played such good defense since not having Rondo? Exactly.

Paul Pierce was only able to play such incredible lock down defense on Lebron and Kobe because he knew he had Rondo as help and to get in the passing lane. He wasn't really known as a great defender before Rondo and wasn't after.

Has Smart lifted the defense of anyone around him?

[MBunge]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

[Eja117]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos? What exactly is rookie Smart going to do here. Turn on the super speed that rookie Rondo doesn't have? Use the super jumping ability on rebounds that he doesn't use in games?  Smart's best chance would be to try to post. But again....rebounds.

Smart doesn't even pass all that great against average defenders let alone 5 Rondos.

[Eja117]

It's worth pointing out that Smart is getting his numbers on a team that desperately needs and wants him to be a leader and play very well.

Rondo got his numbers on a team that didn't need that in the same way at all.

Part of the problem here is perception based on draft spot and that's not all Smart's fault at all.

[MBunge]

I think a hypothetical game between 5 cloned rookie rondos and 5 cloned rookie Smarts would end in an absolute slaughter of Smart, at the hands of Rondo.  I think it would look like a game between an NBA player and a college player.

Smart's defense would simply not affect Rondos and Rondos would take every rebound.

Except for the part where, you know, 4 of the Smarts are always standing in the lane while the 5th guarded the Rondo with the ball.

The revisionism about Rondo's defense is wrong.  So is the suggestion was some sort of world-beater as a rookie.

Mike

Waaaiittt a second. Are you saying there are now 4 open Rondos?

Uh...yeah.  Four open Rondos, none of whom can hit the broad side of a barn.

Mike