#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[BballTim]

So, as part of the appeals process, Brady submits some emails completely unrelated to deflategate (in an effort to convince people he's trying to cooperate). Since they were made public (as the rest of the appeal was), he can now claim that he was right to not turn over texts because they'd obviously be leaked, and he was understandably worried that all of his personal (non deflate-gate related) texts, which the investigation *never asked to have* would also be leaked? I hope nobody's seeing anything else when they look at that.

The email release was ordered by Judge Berman, wasn't it?

Yeah but that didnt fit Tim's narrative.

But anyways I am so sick of this. Brady clearly had some level of guilt. But I still find the punishment imposed on the Patriots egregious. A first round pick when the Wells report specifically exonerates Kraft and Bellicheck? I get a 4 game Brady suspension but I dont get that.

  I don't really see what his comment (or yours) have to do with the part of my post that was bolded. Why would Brady turn over texts about a pool cover in response to a request for texts related to deflate-gate? Why would anyone consider that to be cooperation?

"To try and reconcile the record and fully cooperate with the investigation after I was disciplined in May, we turned over detailed pages of cell phone records and all of the emails that Mr. Wells requested,” Brady wrote. “We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone. In short, we exhausted every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time. Regardless, the NFL knows that Mr. Wells already had ALL relevant communications with Patriots personnel that either Mr. Wells saw or that I was questioned about in my appeal hearing.”   http://larrybrownsports.com/football/tom-brady-turned-over-emails-cell-phone-records/268756



"On June 3 his forensic examiner catalogued all 5,317 emails Brady sent or received between Sept. 1, 2014 and March 1, 2015. These emails were searched for the following terms:

k-ball, kball, gage, air-pump, airpump, needle, pin, PSI, pounds per square inch, 12.5, bladder, McNally, Bird, 1 pound, 1 lb, one pound, one lb, 2 pound, 2 lb, two pound, two lb, gaug* [the * means that all variations of “gaug” were included, such as gauge, gauging, gauged etc.], pump*, inflat*, deflat*, (game OR kick*) ball ~2 [this means Brady’s emails were searched to see whether the words “game” or “kick*” were found within two words of “ball”], (prep* OR rub*) AND (ball OR football) ~10, (investigat* OR meet* OR discuss* OR question) AND (championship OR Jan* 18 OR 1/18), investigat* AND (ball OR football OR Ind* OR Colts) ~10, (equilib* OR atmosphere* OR climat* OR environment* OR test* OR experiment) AND (ball OR football) ~10".  http://deadspin.com/the-full-story-of-tom-bradys-destroyed-cell-phone-1722190784


pump* is in the pool cover e-mail

  Ok, so they were in "flood the investigation with reams of irrelevant data" mode after destroying the data that was requested. Got it.

  But how does that fit in with his refusal to comply with the investigation's original request because of the precedent it would set?

[smicker16]

I just don't think showing all of his text messages would have helped him out.  Even if they said here are all the relative texts they would have painted this picture that Brady did not turn over all of his texts or his full phone.  And even if he had nothing in there it would not have made him completely innocent.  I mean one of the guys who was supposedly heavily involved had a text message that said the balls should have been at 13PSI.  That is the clearest text out of them all and it did not help their case so I really do not think there is anything Brady could have turned over that would have changed the story. 

Also failure to cooperate and receiving a suspension for it is completely unprecedented.  Favre did not turn his over and he got fined $50,000.  Gostkowski also was investigated for the kicker balls and he did not turn his phone over and got nothing.  Oh and one of those guys was proven innocent and the other one guilty so I do not think not turning over texts or your phone shows you are innocent or guilty. 

[D.o.s.]

I do not think not turning over texts or your phone shows you are innocent or guilty.

Agreed, but it's fairly easy to look at this in the same way you'd look at a breathalyzer or something like that -- you're not compelled (just heavily coerced per fines and penalties, ala Brady and his phone) to submit to testing, but if you're innocent, why wouldn't you?

How you feel about authorities doling out punishment on that sort of scale would, I assume, play a part in how you feel about what Brady did and how the NFL responded.

[smicker16]

I do not think not turning over texts or your phone shows you are innocent or guilty.

Agreed, but it's fairly easy to look at this in the same way you'd look at a breathalyzer or something like that -- you're not compelled (just heavily coerced per fines and penalties, ala Brady and his phone) to submit to testing, but if you're innocent, why wouldn't you?

I don't know.  Why didn't Gostkowski?  Do you really think Brady would have as much support from the union and other players if he did?  I think that probably has a lot to do with it as it would really be going against what the union would want.  Now we have seen some guys who hate Brady come out to support him like Suggs, Pollard and others.

Also a breathalyzer could really help your case if you pass, turning over texts I just really do not see that helping much based on how this all played out.

[D.o.s.]

My point is more about the refusal than the actual benefit (or detriment) of doing something you're not being compelled to do.

[knuckleballer]

So, as part of the appeals process, Brady submits some emails completely unrelated to deflategate (in an effort to convince people he's trying to cooperate). Since they were made public (as the rest of the appeal was), he can now claim that he was right to not turn over texts because they'd obviously be leaked, and he was understandably worried that all of his personal (non deflate-gate related) texts, which the investigation *never asked to have* would also be leaked? I hope nobody's seeing anything else when they look at that.

The email release was ordered by Judge Berman, wasn't it?

Yeah but that didnt fit Tim's narrative.

But anyways I am so sick of this. Brady clearly had some level of guilt. But I still find the punishment imposed on the Patriots egregious. A first round pick when the Wells report specifically exonerates Kraft and Bellicheck? I get a 4 game Brady suspension but I dont get that.

  I don't really see what his comment (or yours) have to do with the part of my post that was bolded. Why would Brady turn over texts about a pool cover in response to a request for texts related to deflate-gate? Why would anyone consider that to be cooperation?

"To try and reconcile the record and fully cooperate with the investigation after I was disciplined in May, we turned over detailed pages of cell phone records and all of the emails that Mr. Wells requested,” Brady wrote. “We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone. In short, we exhausted every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time. Regardless, the NFL knows that Mr. Wells already had ALL relevant communications with Patriots personnel that either Mr. Wells saw or that I was questioned about in my appeal hearing.”   http://larrybrownsports.com/football/tom-brady-turned-over-emails-cell-phone-records/268756



"On June 3 his forensic examiner catalogued all 5,317 emails Brady sent or received between Sept. 1, 2014 and March 1, 2015. These emails were searched for the following terms:

k-ball, kball, gage, air-pump, airpump, needle, pin, PSI, pounds per square inch, 12.5, bladder, McNally, Bird, 1 pound, 1 lb, one pound, one lb, 2 pound, 2 lb, two pound, two lb, gaug* [the * means that all variations of “gaug” were included, such as gauge, gauging, gauged etc.], pump*, inflat*, deflat*, (game OR kick*) ball ~2 [this means Brady’s emails were searched to see whether the words “game” or “kick*” were found within two words of “ball”], (prep* OR rub*) AND (ball OR football) ~10, (investigat* OR meet* OR discuss* OR question) AND (championship OR Jan* 18 OR 1/18), investigat* AND (ball OR football OR Ind* OR Colts) ~10, (equilib* OR atmosphere* OR climat* OR environment* OR test* OR experiment) AND (ball OR football) ~10".  http://deadspin.com/the-full-story-of-tom-bradys-destroyed-cell-phone-1722190784


pump* is in the pool cover e-mail

  Ok, so they were in "flood the investigation with reams of irrelevant data" mode after destroying the data that was requested. Got it.

  But how does that fit in with his refusal to comply with the investigation's original request because of the precedent it would set?

From the hearing Ted Wells testified “I did not tell Mr Brady at any time that he would be subject to punishment for not giving … not turning over the documents. I did not say anything like that."



Also from the hearing, there is this exchange between Kessler and Brady

Q. During that time, did they ever tell you that if you didn't turn over some texts or e-mails or respond to that that you were going to be disciplined in any way, you know, that you were going to be violating some, you know, specific policy about that or anything like that? Did they ever tell you that?

A. No.

Q. If you had been informed by them and they said look, this is your duty to cooperate, would you then have produced them no matter what your agents and your counsel said?

A. Yes.

[D.o.s.]

I mean, that's sworn testimony and all but it's very easy to say "sure, totally would have" in retrospect.

[knuckleballer]

I just don't think showing all of his text messages would have helped him out.  Even if they said here are all the relative texts they would have painted this picture that Brady did not turn over all of his texts or his full phone.  And even if he had nothing in there it would not have made him completely innocent.  I mean one of the guys who was supposedly heavily involved had a text message that said the balls should have been at 13PSI.  That is the clearest text out of them all and it did not help their case so I really do not think there is anything Brady could have turned over that would have changed the story. 

Also failure to cooperate and receiving a suspension for it is completely unprecedented.  Favre did not turn his over and he got fined $50,000.  Gostkowski also was investigated for the kicker balls and he did not turn his phone over and got nothing.  Oh and one of those guys was proven innocent and the other one guilty so I do not think not turning over texts or your phone shows you are innocent or guilty.

I agree, the text message from Jastremski stating the balls should have been 13 has basically been ignored.  It contradicts that there was already a scheme in place and it came 5 months after the "deflator" comment.

The problem is that it is extremely difficult to prove a negative.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I mean, that's sworn testimony and all but it's very easy to say "sure, totally would have" in retrospect.

Agreed. Then again he gave up all the materials requested, that could still be accessed of course, once the incredibly unprecedented punishment came about.

[knuckleballer]

I mean, that's sworn testimony and all but it's very easy to say "sure, totally would have" in retrospect.

Sure, but what else is there?  What more could be done at that point?  They handed over everything they could and provided a letter from his carrier stating that they could not retrieve his texts.  Afterall, they have all the texts from the ball boys as wells as many other team employees including Belichick. 

I understand why he refused to hand over his phone.  I understand why his lawyer and the NFLPA advised him not to.  Certainly, no one thought that would lead to assumed guilt and a four game suspension.  It's a basic discovery dispute.

[D.o.s.]

I mean, that's sworn testimony and all but it's very easy to say "sure, totally would have" in retrospect.

Sure, but what else is there?  What more could be done at that point?  They handed over everything they could and provided a letter from his carrier stating that they could not retrieve his texts.  Afterall, they have all the texts from the ball boys as wells as many other team employees including Belichick. 

I understand why he refused to hand over his phone.  I understand why his lawyer and the NFLPA advised him not to.  Certainly, no one thought that would lead to assumed guilt and a four game suspension.  It's a basic discovery dispute.

I agree with you.  Like I just said:

How you feel about authorities doling out punishment on that sort of scale would, I assume, play a part in how you feel about what Brady did and how the NFL responded.

Don't worry, I'm not looking to impugn on precious Tawm's honor.

[smicker16]

My point is more about the refusal than the actual benefit (or detriment) of doing something you're not being compelled to do.

Yeah, I guess I just do not see the point when it goes against what the union probably advised and wanted him to do.  Granted the replacing and destroying of that phone was a horrible idea.  My guess is Brady and the Patriots all thought this was a very small thing and did not take it that seriously.  Then when the punishment came down and Brady saw how bad it was thats when they backtracked and probably tried to do anything they could to get some of those text messages at the time.  Really badly handled by his legal team I think from that part.  Even if he does regularly destroy his old phones when he gets a new one, which makes sense they should not have let him do that in this case.  Horrible advice guilty or innocent.

[steve]

When the 2 pounds report, the deflator text and the ballboy in the bathroom were reported, I thought the pats did it.

Then two things happened. The actual measurements came out and the drop could be explained by the ideal gas law.

But the text and the bathroom visit still looms and the coincidence is tough to swallow.

So let's say that brady conspired in the scheme, that means that either:

A) the deflator takes the balls in the bathroom and decides that for some reason he's not going to take air out this time

B) the deflator takes maaaybe .01 out of the balls

If you believe in the ideal gas law AND you believe that brady is guilty then you must believe in A or B. So which is it?

Option B is ridiculous.

Option A means there is no violation, at least for this game.

Is there an option C? What am I missing?

[knuckleballer]

When the 2 pounds report, the deflator text and the ballboy in the bathroom were reported, I thought the pats did it.

Then two things happened. The actual measurements came out and the drop could be explained by the ideal gas law.

But the text and the bathroom visit still looms and the coincidence is tough to swallow.

So let's say that brady conspired in the scheme, that means that either:

A) the deflator takes the balls in the bathroom and decides that for some reason he's not going to take air out this time

B) the deflator takes maaaybe .01 out of the balls

If you believe in the ideal gas law AND you believe that brady is guilty then you must believe in A or B. So which is it?

Option B is ridiculous.

Option A means there is no violation, at least for this game.

Is there an option C? What am I missing?

C) he took a leak

Not sure why that is hard to believe.

[steve]

My point is more about the refusal than the actual benefit (or detriment) of doing something you're not being compelled to do.

Yeah, I guess I just do not see the point when it goes against what the union probably advised and wanted him to do.  Granted the replacing and destroying of that phone was a horrible idea.  My guess is Brady and the Patriots all thought this was a very small thing and did not take it that seriously.  Then when the punishment came down and Brady saw how bad it was thats when they backtracked and probably tried to do anything they could to get some of those text messages at the time.  Really badly handled by his legal team I think from that part.  Even if he does regularly destroy his old phones when he gets a new one, which makes sense they should not have let him do that in this case.  Horrible advice guilty or innocent.

Isn't it possible that he texted someone something so personal that it would be worse if that got out? Perhaps the perception of "I must be hiding deflategate evidence" is a better alternative for him.

I don't think destroying the phone necessarily means your guilty of this violation. But for all the people saying that he must be hiding something, aren't we all?